The Secret to being a Timeless Presenter, with Andrea Pacini

Welcome to Building Your Leader Brand. Today on the show, Bob is speaking with Andrea Pacini. That's the biggest mistake. And also, if we learn how to do it, the, the solution as well. How can you clarify for the audience why they should be there, why they should care about your subject? If you can't do that and if they don't want to be there, if you don't achieve your objective, if you don't get their attention, if you don't build that connexion, if you don't build trust, probably they have a point. Hi there and welcome back to Building Your Leader Brand. My name is Bob Gentle and every week I speak to incredible people who share their secrets to building, marketing, and monetizing your expertise and the mindset you need for your business to grow and thrive. If you're new to the show, then while you still have that device in your hand, before you start doing anything, take a moment, do a guy a favour and hit the subscribe button or the follow button because it will literally make my day. When I see my numbers going up, I'm a happy guy. When I see my numbers going down, I'm not a happy guy. So you can help me be a happy guy. Again, if you're new here, you will love the Personal Brand Business Roadmap, 100% free as a gift from me. 50 pages of everything you need to start, scale, or fix your expert business. And speaking of expert business, we are going to be diving deep into communication today. One of the things I find again and again and again is people can have the most incredible businesses, the most incredible experience, but when you ask them to explain what they do, it's literally like they fell on their face. And to help me play with this is my friend Andre Passini. Welcome. Thank you, Bob. Great to be back. I'll try and make you a happy guy as well. Let's see. I don't mean to sound too needy, but yeah, everybody likes the numbers going up. So you are launching a book this week, which we can talk about in a minute, but maybe before we get into the book, if you could maybe just give some orientation around who you are, what it is you actually do. I think that'd be a great place to begin for the person who's meeting you for the first time. Sure. I run a company called Ideas On Stage UK. I'm a presentation coach. We specialise in working with business owners, leaders, and teams who want to become more confident, more effective presenters. Just to give an idea, Bob, in the last 16 years, we've worked with thousands of clients around the world, including business leaders from organisations like eBay, Spotify, Salesforce, Amazon, and also over 500 TEDx speakers. And our mission is very simple. We want to stop great ideas from failing just because of the way they are presented. And when I say an idea, it could be a project, a product, a service, or just an idea, a mission. They fail. They don't get remembered. They don't get accepted. They are not acted on, not because of the ideas themselves, but exactly what you said at the beginning. It's just because of the way they are presented. And our vision is to help hundreds of thousands of business leaders inspire their audiences, increase their influence, and make a positive impact in the world. And this book that's coming, we'll be talking about in a minute. It's not your first rodeo. I think you have at least one, perhaps two other books, if I'm correct. I've got another book. In 2023, I published Confident Presents. And now you're right, there's also the very first book, but let's not talk about it because the very first book that I published way back, I think nobody has ever read it, which is a very good thing. So, so that's fine. Then Confident Presenter in 2023, which was— it's a practical step-by-step, it gives you a practical step-by-step method for you to become the best presenter you can be. Now this one, which is going to be released this week, Timeless Presenter, is different. It doesn't give you a method, it doesn't give you a step-by-step framework, it gives you a collection of reflections, short reflections. We're talking about almost 300 reflections on the timeless principles of communication, principles that worked 2,000 years ago. They still work today, regardless, by the way, of AI and technology, and they will continue to work hundreds of years from now. So that's the idea behind it. So I think a good place to begin is perhaps to define the problem. I think presenting or speaking, the challenges really come in different stages. There's the very first challenge, which for me a lot of the time is an emotional one. It's, oh, do I really want to do this? Oh, it's going to be so painful. And if you're not accustomed to being on stage, we'll just define it as stage, whatever that means for you. Then the physiological reactions to that experience can be a real barrier. And I think that's probably a good first place to begin. I know this is— maybe it isn't what you focus on in the book, but I think for a lot of people who aren't regular presenters, that's probably the first gate to pass through before they perhaps need to start looking at some of this more tactical or timeless stuff. What advice would you have for anybody that that's the first ring of fire they have to pass through? First of all, if you feel nervous before or during a presentation, you are not alone. Apparently, we always need to be careful with quotes, but Mark Twain is often attributed to have said that there are only two types of speakers: those who get nervous and those who are liars. I'm a presentation coach. I give lots of presentations. I help others behind the scenes often give their own presentations. Before my presentations, I always feel nervous. So this is a natural part of being human. Of course, that doesn't mean that there's nothing you can do about it. There are things that we can do about it, but it's human, it's normal. And the best thing you can do not to overcome the nerves, because we can't overcome them entirely, but we can learn to deal with them, to channel them in a more positive way, is to be prepared. It's not that there are no magic solutions here. It's to rehearse, to be prepared. I watched a video, Bob, a few years ago of Kobe Bryant, NBA star, and it wasn't him playing, it was an interview. And one question was, Kobe, how is it possible that every time I see you playing, you always look so confident. And he said, the only reason why you think I'm confident is because when you see me doing certain things, I've done those things a thousand times before. Confidence comes from preparation. So for those who have those feelings, nerves, anxiety before, during a presentation, again, It's normal. It's part of who we are. There are things we can do about it, but the best way to deal with those feelings is to know what you are talking about. And the best way to know what you're talking about is to rehearse, is to be prepared. I think it comes back to courage to an extent, that courage isn't the absence of fear, it's taking action anyway. And those people who are regularly in circumstances that we might look as scary, whether it's on the battlefield or on a stage, it's preparation that gives you the confidence to move through fear. The fear remains. And I think it's simply trusting on your training that will allow you to move in either circumstance. The rewards then, obviously there needs to be a payoff. And I'm interested to hear from you as somebody who's worked with a lot of people who are probably aspirational speakers, and then they've moved through the whole arc. They are now regularly presenting what they do. What's on the other side of this rainbow bridge? If we're going to decide, okay, I'm going to self-advocate, I'm going to present, clearly, I'm going to work through this. What's on the other side? On the other side, that very much depends on what you are trying to achieve. Now, there is a very tangible ROI. Often we often work with business leaders, and so from a business perspective, the ROI there is that you will be able to sell much more effectively. When I say sell, it doesn't have to be a product or a service because I think, Bob, that any presentation is a sales presentation. Of course, if you're selling a product or a service, of course we know that's a sales presentation. But even if, say, you work in a large organisation, for example, and you work in a supply chain team and you give an internal presentation to your colleagues and you want to give them an update on a project you've been working on, that's a sales presentation. You are, or maybe your boss is there, you are selling your boss or your colleagues on the idea that what you've been doing with that particular project is the right thing to do. You may want to sell a product or a service. You may want to sell the value of your business, the service that you offer. You may want to motivate your clients, your partners, your colleagues to do something, you want them to take action. There's often a— just the, the simple idea of being able to move the audience to the next step, move them to do something which will help you achieve your objectives, the ability to persuade someone. So there is a tangible ROI there also from a business perspective, but also I remember one of our clients, Kieran, he said to me and he showed me the video that one of the most rewarding things he's ever done after we were— we are still working together— is that he was able for his 50th birthday to— he hosted a party at home. There were like 90 people invited. He sent me the video of him just giving a short speech in front of 90 people for his 50th birthday. And you can imagine, Bob, he also got personal and he gets emotional. And I don't want to talk about my work with Kieran, but just thinking about what he was able to do. And he told me that for me, that was the best ROI possible beyond the practical stuff, the business stuff. There's value in just being able to stand in front of an audience, and it could be— audience could be 90 people, it could be 9 people, it could be one-to-one. And make a case and share an idea that has value for you and create that connexion and build trust. So two elements: the practical implications from a business perspective, but also the very idea of doing something that, that's rewarding in itself, the ability to communicate your ideas and to do it well. I think one of the things that is always fascinating to me is I understand this at a rational level, and I would think that I must, because of that, be immune to it. But most people will recognise the psychology of, I would love to stand up on that stage. And then they think, oh, what if it all goes wrong? What if everybody hates me? What if I make a complete fool of myself? The fear of negative consequences is often completely inflated by the subconscious. Is this something that you see quite often, and how do you help people move through this? I mean, we've spoken about what's on the left hand of the bridge, we've spoken about what's on the right hand of the bridge. This is now, how do you get people over that bridge? Because I think the fear of negative consequences, while irrational, is very real. Yes, to answer your question, I see that all the time. And public speaking— and by the way, Bob, again, when I say public speaking, I'm not talking about— it doesn't have to be a TED Talk. Yeah, it doesn't have to be a big talk at a conference to a large audience. That's part of it. But for me, again, if you give an internal presentation to 5 colleagues or a one-to-one pitch with a potential client, You are speaking in public. Will Durant said, summarising Aristotle, said, "We are what we repeatedly do." And that means that the identity follows the habit, not the other way around. The identity of being a public speaker follows the habit. And that means that if you have the habit of sharing your ideas in public, a one-to-one conversation, what we are doing now, this can be seen as public speaking. We are sharing our ideas in public. Then if that's what you do regularly, then you are a public speaker. Now, to overcome that, we need to learn, and this can be learned. Public speaking is a skill like any other skill. It can be learned. And to do that, we need to learn to make our communication about them. This is one of the key challenges. We don't make a message, a communication, a presentation about them, about the audience. I remember one of our clients, an HR manager, told me once, look, we've got this challenge. We have monthly presentations in our company and everyone, every presenter gives an update on a particular project and everyone must attend. But we know that most people don't want to sit through those monthly presentations. What can we do about it? When I hear a challenge like this, the immediate thought for me is if I put myself in the shoes of the presenters, are they making it very clear to their colleagues in this case, but we can apply it in any other context, Are they making it clear what's in it for them? Why should they care about it? Because as a speaker, if you can't do that, if you can't clarify the so what, why they should sit through those monthly presentations, why should they care about your particular topic, your particular project? If you can't do that, then probably they have a point. It's your responsibility as a presenter to make that clear. And to answer your question, this can be learned. That's the solution, if you want. That's the biggest mistake, and also, if we learn how to do it, the solution as well. How can you clarify for the audience why they should be there, why they should care about your subject? If you can't do that, and if they don't want to be there, if you don't achieve your objective, if you don't get their attention, if you don't build that connexion, if you don't build trust, probably they have a point. As you were speaking there, it reminded me of a rather peculiar podcast I was listening to the other day. And this is going to sound a bit random, but it's going to get to the point. The CIA had a problem, and this was back in the '60s, I think, that they were really good at training people to follow people and spy on people. But the spies kept reporting, for some weird reason, they kept being detected. And the CIA decided to spend some money on understanding what is this feeling like somebody's watching me? What is it? And the experience has a name. I think it's called scopesthesia, the feeling of like somebody's watching me. And they spent a lot of money and they worked out, yeah, it's a real thing that we think some of it's environmental, like a cascade goes out through the environment, the subconscious picks it up. But that didn't account for the whole thing. They came back to, there appears to be what we can only imagine as a quantum effect, that the act of observing somebody at a quantum level creates an entanglement that they just detect at a subconscious level. And I thought, this is— there's something here, there's something here I need to pay attention to. And I spent a bit of time thinking about it one day, and I thought, if the CIA can train people to avoid attention by applying your attention in specific ways, can we use the same principle in reverse but to attract attention? And there's the very practical, as you said, making it about the other person. And we think that it's just a case of, I'm writing about you or speaking to you, so you're going to pay attention. But that doesn't take into account the quantum effect, which for your HR client, if it's a large organisation, could be very measurable. Again, it's a very strange thing, but I thought it was worth mentioning as a bit of trivia. So let's talk about the book. It is called The Timeless Presenter, and we're getting into what's constant, what's universal. Which is always a great place to go because the universe has a lot to tell us. There is nothing new in the universe, and looking back to what's always worked is a great place to begin. So what can we expect on Wednesday? I haven't seen the book yet, so I'm very excited. It's a collection of 278 reflections. Every reflection is very short. It takes less than a minute to read, and most of them start with a storey or an example, and then there's a big idea behind the story. There's a communication principle. And in terms of timeless principles, the reason why I decided to, to write this book is because if you think about, for example, about what's happening with technology, AI in particular, you could argue that there's never been a worse time now to work on your communication skills, to master your skills, because anyway, AI can do a lot for us now, which is true. I like to say it the opposite way though, precisely because AI can do a lot for us, also for our communication, and precisely because everyone is doing it, you have a massive opportunity just to very simply to stand out. So from that point of view, from that perspective, there's never been a better time to master the fundamental principles of communication that worked even with Aristotle, the father of persuasion, more than 2,000 years ago. They continue to work now. They will continue to work in the future as well, regardless of what happens with technology. There's a fantastic book, Bob, by Harari, Sapiens, international global bestseller. And in the book, he says that the reason why at some point, sapiens, us as humans, the reason why we started to dominate the world is not because we had any particular, any different skills than our predecessors didn't have. He said that the reason was that at some point we started to collaborate with each other. And if we think about it, the only way for— oh, by the way, to collaborate with each other in large numbers, That was the thing. The only way for us to be able to collaborate with each other in large numbers is to communicate with each other, is to tell storeys with each other. So communication is at the very core of what it even means to be human. Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-technology, I'm not anti-AI. I do use AI, for example, every day for my business, for my communication as well, but we should use AI as a tool, as an assistant, as an aid. You are the story. You are the storyteller. As a presenter, as a communicator, you should always tell the storey or the message that only you can tell. Then if you want, you can, and yes, why not? You should. Why not? You should use AI If you want some help shaping the story, shaping the message in a more effective way, but the storey is yours, the message is yours. And these are in the book, these are principles that go beyond tools, they go beyond technology. Again, universal fundamental principles of communication. I think what I like about this is I've always felt that Strategy and tactics are great, but if that strategy and those tactics aren't underpinned by a philosophy, they don't really have anything other than a pragmatic direction. When you understand the philosophy, you can be much more dynamic about strategy and tactics. You are a better player whatever you do. And I think this is true of content marketing, it's true of speaking, it's true of software development. It doesn't really matter what it is. If you understand the underlying philosophy of something, you can master it. If you don't, you can't. So I think it's a great contribution. To speak to your point about AI, it is fascinating that there are a million reasons why you don't need to go through discomfort as a creator anymore. You don't need to become courageous. I clicked on a YouTube video the other day, which I think was how to do something in Notion, and it was an AI presenter. It was really good, but I only watched about 10 seconds of the video because it just annoyed me. So discomfort and the tolerance for discomfort is becoming a competitive advantage. Understanding how to move through discomfort and that it is transient is a huge opportunity in a world where everybody is really amplifying through information. If you can amplify through storytelling and connexion, that's where all the opportunity is going to be because we pay attention to difference and difference is becoming connexion. Authenticity and the fruits of courage, not the, the experience of it, but the fruits of people who've gone through that discomfort. So I'm really looking forward to your book. I think it's going to be a great contribution. I can't wait to get it because that's exactly the kind of book I like, is beginning with first principle, not strategy, not tactics. They're important, but if you understand those first principles, you'll just be much more effective. So when I have somebody like you who is being effective in their own business, it's always nice to hear actually what's driving that. What in your business do you just sit back and think, this is so cool, it just works? And what got it there? Do you understand the question? Yeah. It's a bit cheeky. If I understood the question, so I'll give an answer. Let me know, feel free to stop me. Mid-answer if I'm not going where you want me to go. When you asked the question, I immediately thought about something. So stay with me because I think it makes sense. When I was at university, Bob, I had a great professor, Michele— I was in Italy at the time— Michele Frattiani. I love that professor. And sounds amazing. And once he was sharing a hobby of his, and it was something weird. And so it was maybe 50 of us in the class, and we all started And he said, folks, everybody needs to love something. Everybody needs to love something. And if I think about my university days, I remember almost— I studied economics. I think I remember nothing, but I remember that quote, everybody needs to love something, which is connected to— because you said what's driving it also for your business and Passion. Passion is one driver, and also we can connect it to public speaking because everybody needs to love something. The best presentations are powered by love. Love for an idea, for a project, for a business, for a product, for a service, for the audience. Just the love of the idea of knowing your audience. You need to fall in love with the audience. You want to understand them. You want to understand their challenges, the context. That's the only way for you to craft a message that's going to resonate with them. If you don't care about your topic, you can't expect the audience to care about it for you. And connected to this and also connected to your cash flow, what's driving it also from a business perspective is purpose. So you've got this thing about passion is one level, purpose is an even more powerful level. And I read a book by the Heath brothers. The Heath brothers published Made to Stick, which is a very famous book, a fantastic book also for those who want to improve their communication. There's another one, The Power of Moments, and in that book they argue that purpose is even more powerful than passion as a driving force for your business, for whatever it is that you're trying to achieve. And it made me think Because if I think about me, for example, my purpose is— we go back to what we said at the very beginning— often, Bob, way too often, I see great, wonderful ideas that fail not because of the ideas themselves, but just because of the way they are presented. And when we are talking about ideas that have the power to change the world— and I'm not— when I say change the world, it doesn't have to be anything grandiose. It can be, but it could also be that you want to change a very small corner, your own corner, of my world or a very small corner. That's great. Then if we are talking about those kind of ideas, then it's a pity, it's a tragedy that those ideas don't get the buy-in they deserve. And that's my purpose. I want to change that. Now, when you have that purpose, doing what you do every single day, even when it's boring, even when it feels repetitive, even when it's not working, because it's not that it's working every single day. Some days work, some days it doesn't work. Work, talking about those ideas for 10 years, for 20 years, it won't feel like it's something that you have to do. It feels like a necessity. So for me, there are two elements. One is what, what's driving it. One is passion for something that has implications for presenters, for communicators as well. And even more than that, purpose. Did I go completely in a different direction, or in a way, is that aligned with your question? Well, it is absolutely aligned with the question, but in a way that's uniquely you. And I think what you have underlined is the philosophy drives your business. And that without that philosophy in the business, again, the strategy doesn't have meaning. It's not going to be imbued with any energy. You're not going to invest in discomfort and the tactics. Will reflect that. I think that's an important lesson for anybody, that if you're just in business to make money, it makes things very difficult. There needs to be, for some people, maybe not everybody, but there needs to be a deeper meaning, almost a manifesto for your business, because you will invest in it very differently. And I'm not talking commercially, I'm talking about those things that will drive personal change, which drives business change. And those things tend to come through friction and discomfort. We just won't do it unless it means something to us. Exactly. So I had one final question. Yes, I remember what it is now. That's so cool. Normally I think of a good question and if I don't write it down, it's gone. It's always interesting for me, and I kind of fell off the habit of asking this question, but everybody typically sees opportunity coming into their business through one of four doors. It either comes in through relationship, it comes in through what you might call content marketing, I guess, or it can come in through direct outreach, what we would maybe call outbound sales, or ads. It's always very interesting for me to understand what that breakdown looks like for other people. Very broadly, what does that look like for you? Just off the top of your head. Yeah. So you mentioned relationships, content marketing, direct outreach, and ads. For me, it's the first three. All of them we can talk about in a little bit more detail. No ads. We have tried ads in the past. They haven't worked for us. Not because— for me, I always see as a test. I don't, I don't think that one thing, one tactic is better than others. The useful question is, does it work for you? For us, ads in the past have not worked, and I'm sure that they haven't worked because we don't know how to do it well. But in terms of relationships, your network, definitely, yeah, a lot. Content marketing, a lot. I publish content every single day, different forms, written content, blogs, videos. I'm the host of the Ideas On Stage podcast, long-form content, short-form content. Yes, a lot there as well. The other one was direct outreach. Yes, I also, and this is connected to what we said earlier, I also do direct outreach as well because I believe that we can help somebody and we are very clear about who we can help: business owners, business leaders, and the teams who want to become more effective communicators. So we reach out, I reach out to those people, to our target audience. And of course you need to do it in an elegant way. You don't want to be pushy, you don't want to be salesy. But if you do it well, I think it's a good approach and it works for us as well. You reach out to them, you connect with them, you— it's connected to relationships as well. You start building a relationship and then As you do that and as you have those conversations, if and when, because the answer may be no, but if you see an entry point, then they may have a challenge that you can help them with, and then you can start moving from relationship to can we do something together from a business perspective. So for us, it's the, the three. I wouldn't be able to tell you, not even in percentage, what the split looks like for us, but it's, it's those three. Yeah. I think one of the things I've looked at quite hard is what healthy looks like. And you've kind of described it there in a typical expert business. It's going to be 60% through existing relationships, something like 20% through content marketing, and then 10%, maybe 15% through direct outreach. And a tiny slice of ads at the end. And what I always find interesting is that the marketing industry would love to invert that and have us invest our efforts at the inverse. And what I like about what you're describing is that you are investing proportionately. I think that's what people maybe need to take away. And now that you mentioned those percentages, again, I don't know, but They sound about right also for our business. That would have been my guess. When somebody's doing well, that breakdown should be about right, but it's at odds with what a lot of people think, which is why I wanted to ask you the question, because I think there's often an assumption when you see somebody that has great throughput of clients, they must be doing something magical, they must be doing something different. But actually it's the philosophy driving strategy, driving commitment, driving discomfort, which ultimately is what sees the results. So let's get into the 3 things, André's amplifiers, we'll call it. This is a rather random collection of things that matter to you, can be literally anything. But what's behind amplifier door number 1, André? Let's connect it to to the ideas in the book. Let's connect it to communication, public speaking. Number 1 is, do you know when you communicate, do you know your 1%? And here is what I mean by that. On the Ideas on Stage podcast, I interviewed Dan Pink, another international bestselling author, and he told me that when he was at law school, he had a professor and that professor always encouraged him and his classmates to find the 1%, the method in any topic. And that professor told them that if you understand the 1%, if you can explain it clearly, then you understand the subject. But if you don't understand the 1%, you don't really understand what you're talking about. And the reason why that's important for communicators is that your audience, whether we like it or not, your audience will remember one thing. That's it. A couple of days after your presentation, they will forget 90%, if not more, of the information that you've shared. So you need to be very clear about what's your 1%. If they remember one thing, any presentation should be based on one big idea. It doesn't mean that all you can do is just say one thing in a presentation or when in a meeting, in a call. No, But what's the big idea behind that particular presentation or conversation or interaction? If you don't have clarity about that for yourself first, again, you can't expect the others to have that clarity for you. So very important to be clear about your 1%, the core of your message. I love that. I think that on stage makes perfect sense. I experienced that myself, that I often come away with one takeaway. I'm there in the audience and I'm thinking, this is amazing. So many notes. One thing is what I remember. What's fascinating is the correlation between that and content marketing, for example. A lot of people get super anxious about being repetitive, and what you've really distilled is one key message is probably enough, but what is the 1%? I'm really gonna have to go and think about that. There's potentially a superpower right there. What's behind amplifier door number 2? Number 2 is raising the quality of your examples. Again, very much connected to communication. The best way, or even better, the fastest way to improve as a communicator is to raise the quality of your examples. Now, I'll give an example here. Hans Rosling statistic— he passed away a few years ago. He was one of the most respected voices in the world. He's a statistician, economics, in that kind of field. And by the way, he was well known for presenting data in a super engaging way, one of the best in the world at presenting data. And he gave many TED Talks. One in particular, the title is The Magic Washing Machine, and it's a TED Talk on global development. It talks about economics. So that's the idea behind the talk, but he does it by giving an example, and it's the example of his mum getting her very first washing machine. And just to cut it short, the storey tells us that thanks to the washing machine, his mum had so much more time compared to before when she had to do everything by hand Thanks to that, she could use that time to read books to her son. Thanks to that, his son became passionate about reading and learning. He became a professor and ultimately he became one of the most respected voices in the world in his field thanks to that washing machine. Of course, then he also explains the implications from an economics perspective, from a global development perspective of that particular washing machine or that tool. Now, if you think about the topic, global development economics, he could have used lots of facts, lots of figures, data, and lots of charts. He didn't. He wrapped the entire thing in one example. You mentioned storytelling before. Now, when we say you need to tell a story, it doesn't have to be a once-upon-a-time type of story. It could be an example, an anecdote, something that happened to you, something that happened to that happened to your mum, something that happened to your colleagues, to someone else. It could be a storey of brand success. If you have another client that's already successfully implementing the ideas that you want to communicate, that's a story. So if we think about it, there's always a storey to tell. The problem with most business presentations is that they are 99% facts, and then if we are lucky, 1% is story. It's a bit unbalanced. We should turn this around, tell more stories, and this is the most powerful thing you can do to make your communication more engaging, more persuasive, more memorable. And remember this: the fastest way to improve as a communicator is to raise the quality of your examples. There is a lot to play with in here. Yeah, anybody listening, there is a lot of money in what was just described and a lot of impact. So I'm going to have to spend a bit of time with this. What's behind door number 3, amplifier number 3, Andrea? Number 3 is knowing how to simplify, which by the way, here we can apply in business, for example, with the strategies, the tactics that you put in place. But again, from a communication perspective, we need to be able to simplify a message. I often hear when I talk about simplicity, I often hear, "Bob, yeah, but you know what, I get it, but it doesn't work for me. My product is more complex, my service is more complex, my business is more complex." And I think, really? Are you really the only one who has the most complex product, business, service in the world? I'm not sure about that, but let's assume that that's the case. Even if that's the case, I'm not saying that that can't be the case. Yes, you can. Your topic, your product, your service, your idea may be very, very complex and technical. The way you explain it should never be. If you want to be an effective communicator, you have to be able to simplify. Now, I'll give another example here. My wife works as a therapist for children with special educational needs, autism in particular. She does therapy for kids and also she coaches parents with children with autism. And once she showed me a report, because she knows what I do, of course, and she showed me a report that was written by an expert. The way it works in a field is that you've got experts who, they make a diagnosis, diagnosis in English, right? They make a diagnosis. So they say to these families, your child has autism, they've got this particular challenge. and then after that she comes in and she does therapy and coaching for them. Now, in their report, their expert was giving the family a suggestion for what to do in terms of communication with a child, and the line they wrote was augmentative alternative communication with predominantly receptive images. That was the line, like alternative augmentative communication with predominantly receptive images. Now, even my wife, she's an expert in her field, but she couldn't understand what the expert meant. And after 3 times, she said, maybe what they mean is that the suggestion is for these parents to use pictures when communicating with their son so he can understand better. Now, if I tell you use pictures to help your child understand, that's much more effective in communication than the alternative. Also because these reports are made by an expert for a family. And the same is true when we communicate. We often do something, we create something. It could be a presentation, a message, also in terms of content marketing. It could be something that we create for us. And often the mistake we make is that we created— it's created by us for us. No. It's about them. When you give a presentation, for example, it goes back to what we said at the beginning: what's in it for them? So what? Why should they care? It's always their presentation, not yours. So you need to make it about them. You need to use language that they can understand. Lucy McCarraher, the author of Book Builder— it's a book on how to build a book— she has a chapter that I loved. The title of the chapter is Be Kind to Your Readers. And the same is true when you communicate. Be kind to your audience in general. She says, for example, that if there's a short word and a long word and both words mean the same thing, the short word tends to be more effective in communication. If you can explain something to me, Bob, and you can do it in 2 sentences, if you can explain the same thing in 12 sentences, the 2-sentence version is going to be more concise, more effective in communication. You don't say inflated spherical object, you say bowl. Now, often when we give presentations, for example, we use language which is the equivalent of inflated spherical object. No, just simplify, say bowl. So that's number 3, we have to be able to simplify your ideas, your topic, Your product, your business, your service can be complex, yes. The way you explain it should never be. And it's not about dumbing it down, it's not about oversimplifying it. It's just about finding and using language that everyone in your audience can understand. I think there is a subconscious assumption when we're communicating that more complex language will make us appear more accomplished. Exactly. What is really fascinating is true expertise and experience. You will usually know it by somebody's ability to explain it effortlessly. I'm a nerd, and when I can meet somebody who can explain physics in a way that's a delight to listen to, that's an expert. If you can make it sound complicated, you're a student. And really, that's the difference. And Bob, sorry to cut you off, but this is so important. When they ask me, who do you think is one of the best communicators? I love science and I love science communicators. So people like Neil deGrasse Tyson, Brian Cox in the UK, they are able to explain super complicated, super complex subjects, but in an accessible way. And it's hard because anyone can use long confusing sentences, anyone can use jargon, anyone can use technical terms, anyone can use industry-specific terms that you understand, maybe not your clients, maybe not your audience. And this is a skill that can be learned. And I think this is where the effort pays off. These things are all accessible, they're all learnable. And what you've really illustrated to me is that the payoff on the other end is potentially spectacular and they really do compound up. So thank you for that. I'm really looking forward to the book. If people want to get closer to you, if they want to find out more about you, how can they do that? How can they get into your world? LinkedIn. LinkedIn is on social media. LinkedIn is my world. Feel free to connect, say hi. Feel free to, if you do, Please tell me that you come from Bob's podcast. And our website is ideasonstage.com/uk. I run the UK operations. And that's it. Is the book available for pre-order yet? It's not available for pre-order, but what people can do with their reserves, if you want to include in the show notes, they can pre-register so that As soon as it's out, which will be in a couple of days, they will be among the first to know. And then if they're interested, if they want to do me a favour as an author, they can cheque it out. Well, I hope that they will be beating a path to your door. I'll put links to LinkedIn, your website, and the waitlist on the show notes. Losing my brain there. Andrea, You have been awesome today. I'm really grateful for your time. I've had a lot of fun. One of my favourite interviews for a long time. It's really been all kinds of micro revelations for me, which I'm really looking forward to spending some practical time with. Hopefully the listener had the same experience. For you at home, that does bring us to the end of another episode. Again, if you've got this far, number one, you're awesome. Number two, as you're picking up your phone deciding what you're going to do next, because Bob sounds like is wrapping up, take a moment to follow and subscribe. And you may also like the Personal Brand Business Roadmap, which is 100% free as a gift from me. There's a link in the show notes. At home, thank you for listening. And Andrea, thank you very much for your time. I hope the book goes well and I look forward to speaking to you again sometime soon. Thank you, Bob. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Good to be back.