It's very rare that a podcast interview leaves me questioning everything I do but this interview with Tom Matzen accomplished just that. Tom's focus is helping people build 'high ticket' programs and explains to me why he feels that the orthodox 'ascension model' of online business will very never lead to genuine success for most people and exactly what you can do instead.
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Hi there and welcome back to Amplify, the Personal Brand Entrepreneur podcast. I'm Bob Gentle, and every Monday I'm joined by amazing people who share what makes their business work. Now, it's very rare that a podcast interview leaves me questioning everything I do. But this interview with Tom Mattson accomplishes just that. Tom's focus is on helping people build high ticket programmes. And he explained to me why he feels the Orthodox Ascencion model of online business will very likely never lead to genuine success for most people and exactly what you could be doing instead.
As you may know, the show is supported by our sponsor Agora Pulse. And why is that? Well, you know how hard it is to juggle all the things in your business accounts, meetings, the never ending inbox. And that's why I teamed up with a group just to give you more than five hours back a week. When it comes to managing your social media marketing, no complicated Excel docs, long emails are millions of open tabs. Simply managing all your social media channels in one place go to amplify Mehtar agency forward slash Ogura Pass to score to three months on me.
Now all you have to do is figure out how to spend those five extra hours. Now, if you're new to the show, could take a second right now to subscribers who don't miss new episodes and you can grab older ones when you're done with this one. Don't forget as well. You can join my Facebook community, just visit, amplify me, dot form forward, slash insiders and you'll be taken right there. So welcome along. And let's meet Tom.
This week, I am thrilled to welcome Tom Matzen to the show, Tom, for the guests who don't know you, why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are, where you are, and most excitingly, what you do? Well, thank you, Bob.
So excited to be here. I always believe in podcast world. There's at least two people listening at any one time. So hello to both of you and hello to you, Bob.
I don't know how true that is. As a fellow Commonwealth, I'm on the west coast of Canada and a little island just outside of Vancouver, and we have an island the size of Manhattan, but with 3500 people. So we practise social distancing as a lifestyle choice. I don't know about this covid craziness. We've been doing it for years. We love it. We love it. And for me, I focus on this this section of my business career.
I've been an entrepreneur for thirty nine years. I know it doesn't look a day over thirty eight, but really it's thirty nine years. And the last seven or eight years I've been focussing entirely on helping authority entrepreneurs, you know, coaches, speakers, influencers, package their wisdom and knowledge and build seven and eight figure businesses and global movements at the same time. So my title officially is Chief Movement Maker. Over those 30 some years I've started Eighty-Nine businesses of my own, eight of them to seven figures and beyond.
Several crashed and burned and most somewhere between. So I've made more mistakes on my own businesses than most people make in a lifetime, made and lost millions many times over. And I think that's part of the value that I bring to the table, is that not only have I succeeded in a number of areas, but I've also failed miserably in many others. And, you know, as you know, some of the best lessons come if we're if we're open to learn some of the best lessons come from those failures.
I think for the listener, it's maybe worth noting you and I met on a summit when we were both panellists. And the thing that really leapt out was that you had a very different attitude and it wasn't so much what you said as the things around what you said that had me intrigued. And before we started recording, you were talking about the Ascension model and how the Ascension model doesn't work. So I guess I'd like to jump straight into that. So for the listener who doesn't know what the hell I'm talking about, for the information entrepreneur, the knowledge entrepreneur, authority entrepreneur, what would they normally be told about how to build their business?
And how does your philosophy to that differ?
Yeah, great question. And I'm happy to talk about this, because one of the biggest myths perpetrated by the so-called gurus in our space is that you start with a, you know, a free item, then a low ticket trip wire of some sort, you know, an ebook or a mini course. And then you work your way up and you go to a higher priced course and then maybe you go to a full course at two thousand dollars and then you get into some high ticket offerings and grow from there.
And they teach this and they tell you to do this.
And I can tell you, Bob, I've met over 10000 people in our space who sell their wisdom and knowledge. Now, five, make money with an ascension, more than five and some break even on the Ascension model, which is which is the sophisticated way to actually use it.
You know, you lose money on all the front ends, you break even on some of the middles and you eventually move to the high ticket. But here's the thing. They don't tell you it. It blows my mind is that all of the ones that are making real money and buy real money, I mean, mid seven figures in our midst, seven figures, eight figures and so on. So, you know, five million a year, 10 million a year and so on.
They all make their real money off their high ticket offering. And I've got a chance to share the stage with most of them, I know many of them, I've been behind the scenes in the green rooms and mastermind's with these people and they'll tell you very freely in those settings. That's the situation. In fact, when I first was exposed to this, I just joined Jeff Walker's platoon, a mastermind. And for those that don't know Jeff, he's the launch guy.
The march for me actually is the man on the Internet is the man he's done his clients have done over five hundred million in sales using launches. And we were in his high end where we were in one of his high end mastermind's. It was his baby one year. It was just 18 grand a year. And there were seventy three of us. He had a much higher end, one that was 35 grand a year and a wait list called platinum plus.
But just the normal the normal mastermind, there were 70, some of us. And he shared that on his launches now remember, this is the launch king, this is one of the best guys in the world at it. He breaks even at around two point one million on a launch.
He breaks even. Which means if he does a million and a half for a launch, which is phenomenal results, if you've ever tried that launch format, you know how phenomenal that is.
He loses several hundred thousand dollars and he's quite prepared to do that because he understands business and model and lifetime value customer and everything else. But and Jeff doesn't tell people to do, in a sense, essential model start small. He at least gets them to start at the two thousand dollar level. But so many people in our space teach this Ascencion model, and the reason they do is they have already established their high ticket programme. They were already making money on their high ticket programme, and now they're in filling or what some people love willingly describe squeezing a dollar out of every person on their list.
Which is just a lovely metaphor, isn't it, that we're being squeezed like an infection or something, but that's what it is, they're literally squeezing money out because they know, you know, Tony Robbins shared with me three percent of people that buy courses from him, complete them, not get results. That's smaller, just complete the course. Courses don't work, and by the way, that's Tony Robbins crowd, and if you ever met any Tony Robbins acolytes or perhaps you are one, you're pretty enthusiastic, you're pretty committed, you're pretty self driven, and three percent of that audience completes the course.
So that's kind of like the gold bar standard. And so we learnt very quickly that courses and Ascencion model are completely the wrong way to go.
If you want to create a business and if you want to have impact for your clients, and if you want your clients to complete your training and get results, you need to have skills, accountability and mentorship when you're training people or they're not going to get results, they're just not going to get results.
And you can't afford to do skills, accountability and mentorship unless you're selling high ticket. And so we teach it the opposite way. We call it a descension model. It's what Tesla used to build the most profitable car company in the world. They use the descension model. It's what a lot of other smart information marketing entrepreneurs are teaching now, guys like Nick Kuzmich and Joel Erwa. But it's still probably 80 percent of the world is being taught Ascencion model.
And probably most of the people listening to this today. I've been taught to start with a small free item and then a small purchase and then a small purchase. And the economics just don't add up unless you're a massively good marketer and are massively good at copywriting and conversions and optimising and split testing. And most of us are. Most of us aren't. And so not only is it a tough strategy, you have to be so frickin good at these components to make it work that I'll tell you a fascinating story, Bob.
I had an interview, a strategic alliance discussion with one of those five. Remember I said there were five out of ten thousand that make money at it? Yeah, well, one of them, a very strong, solid entrepreneur. You know his name if I shared it with you, but he shared this with me in confidence, so I won't use his name here. He scrapped the entire Ascencion model and he was making money at every step of the way.
And we're talking million. And I asked him, I said, why don't you scrap it, he said, because they weren't getting results and I cannot sell something, that people aren't getting results. And so he's flipped his model on its head and he does a high ticket offer first. And his first year switching it over was last year, his first time offering that new approach. He did eight point three million on his lawn.
Eight point three million on his launch completely changed his business, his life. He was so much happier. His team was happier. They were getting results because this was mainly a done for you offer, but they didn't have to wait for anyone to show up and do it. They did it for the clients. It was just brilliant. And I really admired him because it's one thing if you're sucking wind and not making any money and you hear this advice from me and I'll give you a better way and you try it out, that's I hope you do.
But imagine if you're making millions and you scratchpad. Because not that it's not making your money as your clients aren't getting results, but that takes guts.
I'm very proud of yeah, but also I feel that it might be making money, but it's how you're making it. How much work are you having to put in to make that money? What's what's what's what's the lifestyle that you're managing to achieve? Because that takes a lot of moving parts. There's a lot to keep in your head.
It's a complex, complex systems and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of clients, if not thousands, do any real value. Whereas with our approach, we teach our clients to do high ticket programmes that guarantee results for their clients. Typically, they're twenty five thousand or one hundred thousand. Those are the two most common price points for those programmes. They start at ten thousand, but most are 25000 or 100000. Well, you don't have to be much of a maths major at 25000 a person.
How many clients do you need to do? A million a year, Bob?
Yeah, I mean, to put out spot, like while we're here, like dyscalculia is my main thing, so that at 40 I'll give you a 40, not four hundred, not four thousand, not forty thousand tripwires, 40 clients.
Well, most people can imagine working with 40 clients. In fact, probably most people listening to this either have 40 clients or have had a total of more than 40 clients.
But they're probably statistically speaking, they're probably not running a seven figure. Your business is in our experience, they're selling them to low ticket stuff that doesn't have skills, accountability and mentorship. So they can't guarantee results. So it makes it tougher to sell. It's really easy to sell a programme. And you guarantee results are our 100 thousand dollar programmes, guarantee a million in sales. It's pretty easy to sell them. You don't need some fancy copy skills.
You don't need subconscious commands.
You know, by now, Bob, it's time to seise your destiny.
And you slipped in the words by now, right?
I knew that I knew that world. I was trained by the associative conditioning peeps and the MLP peeps. And I used to sell webinars and I used to sell that way and I never liked it. But in order to be effective, I studied for the best.
And that's what it took in that environment, especially with webinars, because webinars are a big exercise in manipulation done right.
And about six years ago, we switched from webinars to master classes. And I am so grateful because master classes are just education based marketing. They're they what webinars were intended to be. But they found out that wasn't as effective as manipulation. And so the great webinar trainers even today will teach you how to manipulate the heck out of your prospect, make them feel like crap, make them feel like you're their solution. You're their salvation. Right, Bob?
You buy my course, buy my programme, and your world will be saved. And if you don't, you know, they'll they'll say things like, it's not for you if you don't want to grow your business. What kind of loser statement is that?
Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking back to the webinar training that I went on, and you've literally described it in a very few words. It's five steps of what's the problem? What would life be like if that wasn't a problem, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And you close that in a webinar format because you've got such a short window that you can educate them thoroughly on the topic. And so I get it. I did it for over ten years. I made more than forty million a year off webinars.
I understood it, but it was always, you know, I always felt kind of kind of slimy, frankly, especially the better I got at it. It just I didn't like it.
And then when I saw this other approach, I was like, oh, this is so much better.
You know, in our master classes, we take three hours to teach the topic. We teach the entire topic best we can. The whole strategy and our offer simply is now you know how to do it. Would you like help or do you want to do it on your own? You want to do it on your own. You know how good for you. Let us know. Keep in touch. You want our help here so we can help you.
So I have a question for you. Yeah, I read somewhere and I kind of remember when it might not be true, but it's and we're going to sort of speak about the coach slice of the market at the moment that the average coach in the US, and I'm sure it's the same in other places, struggles to make over fifty grand a year. Yeah.
And one thousand is the latest data. Fifty one thousand dollars. The average business coach, average life coach and business coach combined is thirty two. That right.
So what I'm reading from that juxtaposed with the picture you paint and I'm imagining that if you are that business coach that struggling to break fifty grand a year and you're talking, here's somebody talking about selling high ticket at twenty, twenty, twenty five grand, there's a mindset issue obviously going to jump out saying I could never do that. I couldn't sell a 25 grand a year package. If I've been struggling to make fifty grand a year, how the hell am I going to sell 20 grand a year package.
Really good concern question. And there's several parts to that answer. First off, just recognise that mindset issues are there for all I know, guys, literally at our last big. Global summit, we had a billionaire in the room and he had mindset issues. So first off, just no mindset and triggers are just part of the journey, you know, and if you don't think that's the case, then you're fooling yourself.
OK, so so just recognise that as an old mentor once said to me, you say to that voice in your head, thank you for sharing and you move on. OK, number one. Number two, it all depends on your strategy. See what most of us spend the time focussing on his tactics. And that's to me, one of the differences between a small business owner and an entrepreneur. An entrepreneur spends more time on their business working on strategy rather than the tactics of execution.
And they and they look at it differently. In our case, we have a brand new authorities sell high ticket programme. We've got lots of authority. We've done this. A whole bunch of people say, oh, it's easy for you to sell those things, blah, blah, blah.
Well, because we teach them to link their payments to results for their clients, they can say, well, Bob, but we're going to work together. That's why I only ask for twenty five percent down. All the rest is linked to results and I'm so confident I can get you there that I'm prepared to take the payments to results. So can you if you truly are confident about that, it'll come through in the conversation and the right person. The ideal prospect, the ideal target market will go to.
Fantastic. Let's talk.
So can you break down the linking payments to results? And in practical terms, how does that actually work?
Well, we call that risk reversal. My old mentor, Abraham, the twenty one billion dollar marketing guru, he calls it risk reversal. And so I use that term instead of guaranteed, because what you're really doing, if you think about it, is you're taking the risk off your prospect shoulders and you're putting it on your shoulder.
That's the key. And we teach a process of doing that. It's it's six steps to the first thing you want to do is identify the biggest risks your prospects face when working with you. Obviously, time and money are two of them. But what are the risks? Are there what are the risks?
Are there, for example, right. In the old days, IBM used to be known as inferior, but marketable. That was their nickname from the competition. Right. But here's the thing. If you are in a big corporation and you hired IBM, you never got fired for hiring IBM. There was no risk of being fired if you hired IBM, if you hired your cousin, cousin Johnny in his basement and and the IT department crashed and burned, you were gone.
Right. So there's all kinds of risks. Prospect's face in working with you. The first step you want to do is identify them the second. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes perfect sense. OK, next, do you want to create the biggest, boldest possible guarantee you can create? So before you figure out how you can deliver on it, you come up with the biggest, boldest possible guarantee. And, you know, if you're a if you're a business coach, it should be sales or profit or client period, full stop sales, profit or client, because that's what they want.
Now, if you're a life coach, you want to get into joy and happiness and sleeping at night. And there may be other factors that come into play. But let's focus on business coaches, because that's one of the easiest ways to monetise is to help other entrepreneurs. Well, they're not looking to to release triggers. They're not looking to have Interpeace. They're not looking to have a and more smiles on their face. Those are all by-products of what they want.
But what they want, if you talk to them, is I want more sales, I want more profit, I want more clients, some combination of those. And, you know, if it's men, it's primarily sales and profit. If it's women, it's primarily impact and clients. So if you have an audience focus and you should, you know, distinguish it that way for sure, we will first thing do who's come with the boldest possible guarantee you can create.
So we have a local area mastermind called Get It Together and in the get it together mastermind. These are four local businesses. We guarantee a quarter million in sales in 12 months. Really clean, really simple quarter million in sales in 12 months. And and we often have businesses come in that did a hundred thousand last year in total sales. Right. So that's bold for them, right? That's bold for them.
We have we have international programmes where we guarantee a million in sales, several of them actually one involving LinkedIn, one involving a book, one involving a podcast. We're launching one in about a week as we record this on virtual summits. Basically what we do is we partner with world class authorities.
We take our high ticket programme strategy and their expertise in that niche and combine them with something that delivers amazing results. And so biggest, boldest possible guarantee you can create. Second step with me so far. Got you. I'm making notes. Great. And then number three you is where the work is. You figure out how to deliver on that bold guarantee. You figure out how to deliver on that. And if you're on your own and you're listening to this and going, why the heck do I do that?
Get help. Oh, for Pete's sake, get help. Find, you know, watch one of our master classes. You know, they're all free. Every one of our master classes are free or find someone else who knows how to guarantee results. But lordy, lordy, lordy, don't try and figure this out on your own right if you're taking up a new sport. Right. Like what's one of your favourite sports? But I love snowboarding. Snowboarding.
Oh, perfect example.
If you try and teach yourself snowboarding, what do you get us.
You get a saw what Bob called broken bones, broken bones and a sore arse like your butt gets pounded and pounded and pounded.
It is a tough spot. I was a skier to skis and I started trying to snowboard on my own. What a stupid mistake that was. That lasted one day of trying to do it on my own because it was like ridiculous. Right? And yet if you get someone to teach it to you, they teach you the right way to stand, the right way to fall, the right way to put your hands when you fall.
All kinds of stuff. I learnt I had to laugh. The first thing he taught me was how to fall. And it was a good thing because he saw how coordinated I was. I needed that right.
So you get someone involved who knows how to do this, but you figure out how to deliver on that bold guarantee and sometimes that simple, sometimes that's complex. But then step four is where the magic is on that I call it. And you're dragging your plan and I call it that because Anurag Gupta, one of the smartest business coaches I know, taught me this strategy. So I call it and asking his honour. And he uses he by the way, he takes companies that do ten million a year and gets them to a billion with a B and has a one hundred percent success rate.
Now, I will tell you, there are some fine print. If you if he hires you or you hire him and you don't listen, he fires you. So not one hundred percent of the people that start with him get to that level, but one hundred percent of the people that start with him and listen do. And for you yoga fanatics out there, you might know the store, Lululemon, his first client was Chip Wilson, went from store one to a billion in sales in that area.
So the guy really, really, really knows how to scale and his strategy of Anurag ing, we teach all of our clients and all of our master classes all the time. So you've got your plan to deliver on your bull guarantee. Now, what you do is you build in triple redundancy. So the first thing you do and I'm a go through this quick, but it's so powerful you want to dig into it. Anyone listening and reach out and I'll get you a link to some training on it.
The first thing you do is you double the goal. So let's go back to that local business of a quarter million in sales kebob, because that's something that's more and within most people's grasp million and intimidate some people, right? Quarter million in sales. What we do is we double the goal to half million first step. We're actually not trying to get you a quarter million in our get it together brand. We're trying to get you half a million.
Then we figure out with your cooperation, three different strategies, each capable of getting you to half a million superimportant. Each of the strategies are capable of getting to half a million on their own.
Now, what are you playing for? Well, half a million times three came up with or without the calculator. What's that? I think that was three million. Half a million. Half a million times. Three. One and a half. One and a half million. Yeah. So that's six times your original goal. Right, original goals, quarter million. Now we've created a plan for one point five million, so we blow through the quarter million on the way there, we blow through.
Do we get to one point five million? No, normally not.
But we blow through a quarter million on the way there. So that's step four, we call it. And you're egging your plan.
Step five, you then link payments to your clients, resolve your clients resolve. So that's where your question was. This is where it fits in the process. So in a twenty five thousand dollar programme, we typically ask for 25 percent upfront because if they don't have skin in the game, they don't listen plain and simple. They don't have skin in the game. They don't listen. Now, the skin in the game mean they will listen.
Not always is the real world, but it so much increases the odds over no skin in the game. So we recommend twenty five percent on twenty five thousand or programmes. We recommend twenty five percent down one hundred thousand dollar programmes will do it for twelve and a half percent down but on twenty five thousand dollar programmes you recommend a quarter down, so 60 to 50 and then everything else is linked to results. In our case we recommend the next twenty five percent when they can self fund that payment.
Which is typically about 50000 in sales for most people, given their margin. Right. So we'll do 60 to 50 and then 60 to 50 at 50000 in sales.
And then we do 25, 50 percent when they get to the quarter million. You know how happy they are to give us that final payment, Bob?
Yeah, I can actually really see that. I think it becomes a no brainer for them. They're like, oh, my God, I love that. I love that. That would be incredible. That would be awesome. Oh, my gosh. And then step six to this risk reversal process is you've got to test and measure, test and measure, test and measure, test and measure. Because, you know, a lot of people think guarantees are about money back.
And we don't notice in that process there was no money back offered. Yeah, right.
The skin in the game is skin in the game. They need to have a commitment. They need to be all in on applying this approach of your whatever it happens to be. And so what we've learnt is they need that. You don't want to fund that. Besides, you already delivered the value on that. However, you don't get any of the other payments unless they get the results. And so whether you're doing it done with you coaching scenario or a done for you where you're doing most of the heavy lifting.
Either way, you're getting paid based on results. They're ecstatic to pay you. And if they struggle and don't get results, guess what you get to do? You get to up your game and help them out even more, which is totally smart. Like that's the way it should be. That's the way it should be right now. It's a competitive advantage to market this way. I hope someday it'll be the law.
But I love it because I think anybody listening knows that they can they can deliver if they can get the client engaged. Yes. And this you're right. It makes so much sense. I can totally see this. I mean, I had a lot of reservations when we started speaking because I'm thinking, well, I got a real problem with some clients. And if any clients are listening and any client that is listening, this is not about you.
Of course, the other one, but a lot of clients, they hire you and they want you to come and wave a magic wand and fix them. They don't want to participate in that. They just want to painkillers. They don't want to diet and exercise. Yes.
And you've engineered that in well, you got to build in skills, accountability and mentorship if you want to deliver results. My my you know, we talked about Tony Robbins and three percent of people with courses, programmes where you build in skills, accountability and mentorship get between 20 and 80 percent result, though, orders of magnitude better than a programme, but still not 100 percent. My idol in this space, my absolute top of the pile mentor is a lady called Wendy Lipton Dinner.
She gets 93 percent completion, Paul. Well, ninety 93 percent now I went to a deep dive training on it, and the reason she does is she teaches 14 strategies you simultaneously execute with every client and four strategies to make sure you're screening and qualifying them and only letting in the right people. So 18 different strategies overlayed to get to 93 percent. I love it. I just love it. I love it. I love it. And we're implementing them.
And we've gone from 20 to 43 and some of our programmes, we've gone from 40 to 60 and some of our programmes. I'm not going to be happy until we get to 83 percent, I think.
Ninety three percent. Ninety three percent. Sorry, Wendy. I want to at least match Wendy. I'm not going to be happy until then. So it's possible to get dramatic results. But if you're not charging enough money for it, you can't afford to build in skills, accountability and mentorship that.
That's absolutely. I think what I'm seeing here, just visualising what life would be like implementing this kind of model is you have time, you have time to work with these clients and do it right. But you also have time to really serve your audience with no expectations of something back in return that you can be as nice and helpful and generous as you like and you don't need money for it.
Totally. Well, I get more joy out of our masterclass attendees that never spend a dime with the reviews they write, the recommendations they give us. I mean, they would make my mom proud. I mean, it's amazing.
Some of the reviews and recommendations we get from non payers, from what the industry lovingly calls freebies, freeloaders, blah, blah, blah. Well, guess what?
Not everyone can has the capital. Not everyone's ready to make the changes in their life. It's not just the capital, it's the ready. Are they ready? Not everyone's ready. You got fast movers, media movers and slow movers. Everyone knows that if you've been a business more than a year, you know, some people move fast, some people move medium and some people move slow. Well, we design our masterclasses for the medium and slow movers.
Fast movers already engaged us. By the time a master class comes around, they're ready to rock and roll and have some fun. So those people are a whole different breed. They're the ones that value their time more than their money. So if you can speed up their solution, they're all over it. It's all right. You know, you've met people like that, Bob. They're just like chop, chop, chop, chop, chop. You can get me.
They're good. I mean, let's go.
So I want to ask on behalf of the person who's been plodding away trying to sell fifty dollar memberships or four or five hundred pound a month mastermind's, and they want to move from what's keeping them afloat to what's going to change the game from for so the way things have always been done to the way things could be done. Yeah. How do you turn that oil tanker, its strategy.
It's strategy. And I'll give you two examples on the membership side, the person who teaches memberships the most and sells the most trainings on this subject will be well known to the people that do membership sites out there. He has internal data, which he doesn't tell you until you spend a couple of grand on his programme or its course.
Really, he doesn't tell you until then is that the average person stays with you for three months. You think anyone would ever start a membership site if they knew that that four point three months was the average time someone would stay with you?
Nobody would do a membership site. I spent over a quarter million bucks. I was going to watch Netflix for entrepreneurs several years ago. I had this great idea I was going to innovate the world and blah, blah, blah. Guess what?
Same thing as like, oh, man, you can't make money on four point three months. So so first off, you've got to be careful who you're getting your strategy from. On the mastermind side, the best example I can give you is a gentleman. We just awarded the rights to United Kingdom in Ireland to Neil O'Brien. Neil runs Mastermind's as his business and typically for nine hundred pounds. And he heard about our approach from someone in another mastermind that I'm part of.
And we met and he watched our master class and he goes, I can't believe that. Like, why have I not thought of charging twenty five thousand and guaranteeing results? This is brilliant. And, you know, about a month and a half later, he bought the rights to a huge area. He's going to open up one hundred chapters of this brand and he's starting to fill his first chapter in Ireland right now as we record this. And this is a guy who does mastermind's for a living and at nine hundred pounds a month.
So it's not like a super low end price point.
But he saw our model and structure and went, oh, my gosh. And in this particular case, because we have a whole bunch of systems to make it easier to sell and screen and qualify and train and get results, he decided to partner up with us instead of just do it on his own. But frankly, when we share our masterclasses, we're happy with either solution. We're happy with either solution. Some people love to partner up and get help.
Some people just got to do it on their own. They got to learn the lessons the hard way because that's how they're wired. My strategic advice is get help from someone who's been there because it makes it easier and cheaper. You know, as I previewed at the very beginning, I made and lost millions many times over. Every time I lost millions, it was by either ignoring counsel and advice or not seeking it. And every time I've made millions, it's the exact opposite.
It's like, what a surprise you think eventually would sink through to my skull. Well, now it has for the last 10 years. It totally has. And what a surprise. Now the failures have disappeared from my business portfolio and now it's success or crushing success. It's not all crushing success still, because you've got to test and measure and optimise and some ideas are better than other ideas. But now the massive failures have been eliminated from my model. And trust me, I'm much happier.
I'm much happier. So if you're if you're struggling with this idea and you're sick and tired of being sick and tired because you've got a hobby business, not a real business, you need to make a shift. You need to change your strategy. The tactics are easy to figure out once you change your strategy and so few people think about even your own behaviour. You're listening to this, right? Most of the time you're listening to figure out how do I run a Facebook or how do I use this or how do I use my blog or how do I do that when I write a headline or how do I do this?
What are you doing that for? Those are all tactics. Focus on the strategy. How do I make seven figures working less hours than I am now? Now, that's a good question. How do I make seven, because one of the things we haven't talked about yet is how do you create a programme if you're a coach that is scalable? That is scalable and here's my definition of scalable. This is a tough one. I learnt this from Frank Breea, who wrote the book Scale.
Be a great guest for you someday, Bob. By the way, you love him. He his definition of scale is you get a new client. No more work for you. Now, that's a tough definition. Yeah, right, that's a tough definition, even in our high end programmes, most of the on boarding calls are done by one of our senior people, sometimes by me, but now not always by me.
So we're partly fully scaled.
And I've been at this six years and I teach yet. So I'm not saying it's easy to pull off a scalable business, but you absolutely can't do it unless you are including scalable strategies. So one on one is never scalable.
Group coaching is scalable. Virtual training, of course, is scalable. Mastermind's are scalable, done for use services that are scalable by design, are scalable, done for use services that are custom are not. So if you website builders out there use templates, not custom. Oh, everybody wants a custom. Well that's. Yeah, but then you're going to be a servant to them. You're never going to have a scalable business. That's your choice. You can do that because we really don't want a website.
Now I'm going to get preachy again, we really don't want a website as a business owner, what do we want, Bob, when we say to someone, build me a website, we don't want a website, what do we want?
We want customers. Yeah, at the very least, we want to lead generation machine of some sort. We want a bunch of prospects to raise their hand and say, Bob, tell me more about what you do. I might be.
So this is where I wanted to go next was in order to make money online, there's a fairly simple formula and depending on how you implement this formula will sort of dictate your success or lack of it. And its traffic plus conversion equals money. So one thing we've spoken about is a lot is the conversion. What are you converting people on? If it's a high ticket offer, if you convert them and you can scale that, you'll do well. If you can retain them, you'll grow and you'll grow really, really nicely.
Once your clients have converted to your sort of methodology for want of a better word, how do they go about the audience side of things differently? How do you reach people?
Yeah, superb question. And it's essential that as entrepreneurs we figure this out. It's not just a good idea or nice to know it's essential. I believe that the leader of the business is responsible for marketing and innovation area and everyone else on your team as you build a team, should be responsible for everything else. So what is marketing? To me, marketing is I don't even use marketing and sales as terms because there's too much confusion about how it's applied.
I call it lead generation and lead conversion. Lead generation lead conversion.
What's lead generation taking people that are suspects that might be a prospect and educating them to the point where they raise their hand and say, tell me more. And in the digital world, electronically, metaphorically, they make an enquiry and say, tell me more or they opt in for your lead magnet.
They do something that says, I'm kind of interested in this. That's lead generation and mastering lead generation. Is it very teachable skill? We teach all of our clients how to do it. We have many master classes that teach it. It is a very master skill if your strategy is clear, because you're actually seeking a narrow segment, not everyone.
And when you know what that narrow segment is, i.e. your ideal target market, it's really easy to attract them because lead generation is nothing more than saying here's a problem you have. And I know you have it because I know you, I know you and people like you. And here's a solution for that problem. Would you like the solution? Look here, opt in here, whatever. Come here, watch my this, whatever.
And as long as you know the pain that you're solving is perfectly suited to them, it's quite easy to do that now. Extra for experts, for you advanced marketers.
We call this a strategic lead magnet because if you do it right, two things happen. And I really learnt this at a mastery level from Nick Kuzmich, who gets thirty thousand a month as a Facebook marketing retainer, thirty thousand a month by his clients, pay them and then they spend seventy eighty thousand a week on at. Oh yeah. So just imagine how good you got to be our lead generation. To keep paying someone that that's what I look at, he's generated over one hundred million in sales, over 10 million leads for his clients on high ticket programmes and and the nuances on unstrategic lead magnets.
The first one is you solve their most important pain.
In such a way that they are still hungry for more. The first part I used to do, the second part I did it, I would give them the whole damn solution on a lead magnet. If I could, I'd send them a book. I'd send them a video, detailed training. I'd send them as much help as I could. And it wasn't until I met Nick that I realised I was hurting them. I was hurting those prospects by solving the entire thing because guess what, without skills, accountability and mentorship, they're not going to get it done.
So if you give someone the entire solution plan, well, let me ask you this, how many people do you think attend our master classes on how to make a million dollars and make a million dollars without hiring us zero?
Yeah, I mean, I've never I've never met one yet. Actually, that's not quite true. I met one and we're now partners and we do a programme around podcast. It's called Million Dollar Authority Accelerator Programme, where his team sets up Dream One Hundred Prospect interviews for the podcast. And we do the high ticket programme and together we guarantee a million in 12 months. So he's now a partner. That's how impressed I was by his ability to execute before we were he was a client.
So, yeah, one I met one. So it's statistically some have for sure, but the nuance was the lead man that solves that burning problem but doesn't satisfy everything. It leaves them hungry, just like a good webinar would do. It leaves them hungry. And then your lead conversion process. In our case, we use masterclasses. Shows them the whole plan. In this case, you showed the whole plan, the more you show, the better it converts because your offer simply as would you like help.
And so in that in that example of the million dollar authority accelerator programme with Josh in our two of our three, our master class, we show Josh's entire 18 steps for taking someone and perfectly nurturing them for your podcast so that wait for it. Ninety three percent of them book a call after saying, How can I help you, Bob? How can I help you? Like ninety three percent he gets. It's crazy. Well, but he's got a system and it's 18 steps.
And in that second hour we teach the whole 18 steps. Well guess what happens? The right people go, holy cow, they totally know what they're doing. And I would go nuts trying to recreate this on my own. I'm way smarter partnering with these guys. And in our case, it's 12 and a half percent down in that programme. So 12 and a half percent down, all the rest linked to results. And we're guaranteeing a million in sales.
Oh, and I'm just I'm sitting here reflecting on how much value people give their clients that they're not the business as a value exchange. And a lot of the time, if you're not trying to deliver that value to the right person at the right time, you're not going to get the value that you really deserve.
Yes, money is just a reflection of the value we bring our clients. Yeah. And by guaranteeing results and really spending the time to reach the clients who really, really need those results, you can unlock that value. It's such a nice way of looking at things really, really elegant. I think. I'm I'm so glad we spoke.
Well, thank you for inviting me into both the two of you listening in. Congratulations.
I think I think somebody sort of joined us halfway through. Excellent. Excellent. Three of you high fi.
So tell me, if somebody wants to connect with you, how would you like them to do that?
Well, we're so passionate about teaching people this approach that last year we ran a test where we gave away a million dollars worth of our high ticket programme to people to create, blueprint, validate and sell their first or their next high ticket programme. We call it the Game Changer Programme Academy, and that scholarship offer went so well, we ended up doing five million dollars worth of scholarships last year. This year, we have strategically decided to double down and at least give twenty five million in scholarships away.
So the good news is if if you're this far into the recording and you're still with us, congratulations.
You're pretty smart, Zach. There'll be a link in the show, notes that will get you invite you to apply for a scholarship.
Now, right now, as of recording this, eighty one percent of the people that apply get it. So you won't be guaranteed to get it. But it's a ten thousand dollar programme. We teach the entire process of creating blueprint, validating and selling a high ticket programme. There's no investment of capital, but there is an investment of time. You need to put some time in the fastest. We've had someone pull it off is about thirty one actually.
Twenty eight days is our current record from start to selling their first high ticket programme through the scholarship. Twenty eight days. That's the fastest, but it's a four month programme. It comes with fifteen coaching calls a month and templates and an accountability partner and all the training and a whole bunch of stuff and we'd be honoured to give it away to your listeners. And we literally are non-profit.
Does this. It's called the Entrepreneur Empowerment Institute. Our mission of the non-profit is to reverse the failure rate of small business around the globe. Right now, two out of three small businesses fail in the first six years, and that's pretty covid craziness. Yeah, right. That's in good time and that's not acceptable. It's not acceptable that two out of three entrepreneurs fail. So we give these away as a strategy to reverse that failure rate. So all we ask in return, if you apply for a scholarship and you get in there is you apply it, you apply it, you show up, you you put it into action.
And we already know if you do that, you'll get results. And if you do that, you'll refer other people to us. And if you do that, you'll become a raving fan. We already know that. But I'll tell you, Bob, this won't surprise you. Half the people we give scholarships to don't show up.
Well, I am going to have my Black Friday elbow guards and knee pads on. I'm going to be at the front of the queue.
LAVETTE Well, we have a I didn't tell you this before, but we have a ninety eight point three percent podcast host application rate.
We have literally one one podcast on it since we started this. Who said, I know what I want, you know? OK, fine.
Right, right, right. So but yeah. We'd love to have you in there, Bob. Absolutely. Absolutely. There is so much opportunity. There is so much impact that's being left away. Plus, you know, let's face it, you could have twenty people on the same topic with the same offer, and each of them could have forty clients each doing a million a year. Yeah.
I think when you're when you're operating at the right level, you move into a post competition space.
Yes. In fact, my old mentor Jake calls it the strategy of pre-eminent.
When you're doing something so well that there is no direct competition, there's always indirect competition. But when you're doing something so well, there's no direct competition. It's the strategy of pre-eminence. And I'll wrap with a quick story where you talk about being outside your comfort zone and stretching to do this. We're developing a new programme right now. That's the best of all of those six figure programmes combined. And we're going to guarantee ten million in sales in thirty six months.
We want to take all of those strategies and then add a global licencing play to it. And I'm super excited about it. And it's super stretching our comfort zone. But in our world, the thirty six months is Anurag, which means we actually think we can get someone there in eighteen months. And that was stretching our comfort zone, like how do we get someone there. We actually tried for a year, we tried how can we do it year.
And we literally figured out we could, it would take 18 months. So we're calling it a thirty six month programme. It's going to guarantee ten million in sales. The fee will be one tenth or a million dollars and people will put ten percent of that down, which is still one hundred grant like significance. Not for everyone, obviously, but we're going to guarantee ten million in sales.
And I will tell you this, we will have a one hundred percent success rate.
We're going to anurag the heck out of that one like all of our programmes. But that one is going to be my Anurag Gupta equivalent. It's going to be that, you know, it's not ten million to a billion, but taking an authority entrepreneur and getting the ten million, they'll be the equivalent. And so we're super excited about that. But that we walk our talk on this, we walk our talk. We know what's the biggest, boldest thing we could think of.
How do we backward shape and how do we guarantee it then? How do we anurag it? How do we set the pricing up? So it's linked to results.
We walk our talk on these things. And if you're listening in and you're a tall, sick and tired of not making the money you deserve to make and frankly, not having the impact. You feel you need to have in the world or deserve to have in the world or ought to have in the world, then apply for the scholarship and we'll see inside the game changer programme, we'd love it.
Tom, I'm so glad I had you on the show. I have the best time. I think a lot of people have a lot to think about. A lot of people probably going to be going for a walk right now. So thank you so much for your time. It's been great to speak to you. You're welcome for you. Yes, sir. What's one thing that you do now that you wish had started five years ago?
Budget is we're constantly innovating five years ago and now.
Oh, well, it's it's a advanced application of Anurag. So let me describe it quickly for you. When we teach Anurag and we talk about triple redundancy. Right. Double, double and triple redundancy, but the actual strategy to get someone from 10 million to a billion is you build in triple redundancy at every stop. So you have three programmes. You have three target audiences, and you have three ways to fill each of the programme.
Target audience combinations that matrix.
Do not try this at home, kids, when you're first starting out OK, promise me you do not want to try this, but I wish I had tried that five years ago because I was familiar with Anurag and five years ago. And now we realise by doing that you're building redundancy on top of redundancy, on top of redundant more work to set it up, way less risk on the outcome.
And I'll give you a very specific example. We launched our very first big virtual event this January, and it was called the Strategic Alliance. Like, well, actually, we call it Strategic Alliance Summit. We've now rebranded it the Strategic Alliance Live. And it's an all deal making virtual event, three days, joint ventures and strategic alliances for three days. I love it. We did this live for six years in person because it covid we went to cyber.
We got way more people to come out, blew our mind, sign some four billion in term sheets. It's absolutely amazing. Now we're going to do it three times a year. So if you're tuning in, go to Strategic Alliance Live. You can get all the details. Our goal was a thousand people register. And keep in mind, Bob, we've never done a virtual event, OK? We've never done a virtual event. We've done masterclasses tons.
We've done live events, tons. But the live events for this topic, we're always hand curated.
Two dozen, three dozen, four dozen people was our biggest and we wanted a thousand.
And we put in this strategy of Anurag ing, the way I just described it, all three levels. And we had seven main strategies to fill the room as part of that seven, not three, seven, six failed miserably. I mean, really failed, not just a little bit like like, oh my God, do you know what you're doing? Failed.
OK, and we had thirty nine hundred people register. Wow.
And it was just we did, we did a seven figure event, we did multiple seven figures since the event. We're going to launch it now and we're doing it three times a year. It'll be at eight bigger division this year. The entire thing was because we, Anurag or Anurag, we did that. And so for me, without a doubt, that's the single biggest thing I wish I had done five years ago, that I thought, oh, that's too much work.
Well, you know what's too much work? Struggling to be broke. That's too much work. We're doing one on one coaching for the rest of your life. That's too much work. Right? This is way, way more fun and way easier. So there you go.
Tom, you have been an awesome guest. That's a fantastic answer. And I would love to have you back on the show sometime. Anytime. But for now, thank you very much and speak you soon.
Appreciate it, Bob. Thanks for listening, everybody. Making an awesome day. Well, like me, you probably have a lot to think about now. Tom really turns the whole world on its head and that's a great thing sometimes. But it's important if something is working for you already, lean into that. Keep doing it. It's very tempting to just throw everything out and start something else when you hear someone like Tom. I took a lot from that.
I'm going to be looking at some areas of my business, but I get that after every podcast guest. But Tom is very compelling. Before I go, just a quick reminder to subscribe. And if you haven't already to join my Facebook group, you'll find a link in the show, notes or just visit, amplify me dot com forward slash insiders. I would love for you to connect with me on social media. Find me wherever you hang out.
Just look for at Bob Gentle. And if you do message me, let me know and I can follow you back. If you enjoyed the show, then I would love a five star review on Apple podcast. It would mean so much to me and it's the best way to help me reach new subscribers. My name is Bob Gentle. Thanks again to Tom Mattsson for giving us his time this week and to you for listening. And I'll see you next week.