The Most Amazing 🤩 Marketing Book Ever, with Anna Bravington

You. Welcome to amplify the personal brand entrepreneur show Today on the show, Bob is speaking with Anna Bravington. I'm not saying that when you present the facts to a CEO they always believe them. They don't always. There's no one. Oh, of course, yes, that's exactly what's going to happen. I totally trust you now, it's not that easy. But if you start getting this data and this information from different parts of business and the audience, it's not just you against them, it's the business and your audience against them, which is a much more powerful position to be in. Hi there and welcome back to the Personal Brand Business Show. My name is Bob Gentle and every week I speak to amazing people who share their secrets to building, marketing and monetizing your expertise intentionally growing a unique personal brand and the mindset you need for your business to grow and thrive. If you're new to the show, then while you still have your device in your hand, take a second to subscribe. Whether you're listening on audio or on YouTube, hit that subscribe button as it's the very best way to make sure you don't miss a single thing. And if you're a regular listener, consider sharing the show with just one person. It's the very best way you can help the show grow and help me reach more people. If you are watching on YouTube, as I mentioned, you can subscribe but you can also like this video, it will really make my day. So this week I am really excited to speak to a friend of a friend, Anna Braddington. Anna is one of the co authors of a new book with the most audacious title I've ever come across. It is humbly titled the Most Amazing Marketing Book Ever. Anna, welcome to the show. Thank you, it's great to be here. So I have a lot to talk about. But for the listener who's our viewer must forget the YouTube people, sorry, YouTube. For the people consuming this content who haven't met you before, can you maybe start just telling us a little bit about who you are, where you are and the kind of work that you typically do? So I'm Anna Bravington, I am a marketing strategist. I've been in marketing for over 25 years and I flip flop backwards between brand and agency side because I like a bit of variety. Worked with over 20 sectors, 60 brands because I love to just get to know lots of different types of industries. So useful for getting that big perspective. And I have a co founder, Anne Marie as well, who's got similar experience to me. And one of the things that we love is that we create marketing strategies that both the CEO and CMO can understand. So it's about letting marketeers have that buy in from the senior stakeholders into a strategy that reaches the business goals as well as the marketing goals. It's much easier to get budget that way. So that's our specialism. So when I looked through your website, what I loved about it was it's not typically speaking to the CEO, it's speaking a lot of the time to the internal marketing person, which is actually really unusual. A lot of the time, agencies will really pitch to what they perceive to be the decision makers, but actually, a lot of the time that just isn't the case. Yeah, it's true. It's very true. What I was going to ask you was a little bit about that. Obviously I want to get into your own business journey in a little bit, talk about the book. And like I said, I have lots of questions, but in terms of first things first, you are delivering marketing strategy into typically larger organisations, I'm guessing. So it's not startups or typically very small businesses, it's going to be larger organisations where there is a budget, there is probably a team in place in some shape or form. And a question I have, I guess, is a lot of the time people in marketing assume if there's an internal marketing team, it's going to be hard for them to really have a meaningful conversation because there's a little bit of a competition between internal marketing and external marketing that isn't my own experience. If you come at it with the right perspective, given that that really is the niche that you've discovered, if you like discovered or uncovered or evolved into, what's your experience of how to approach internal marketing? People with an attitude of service in such a way that they feel that you're going to bring value rather than threaten their job. I think it's because I've been there so in house. I had some disastrous relationships with agencies. We had one chap who we were going to go with. It was a big agency and they offered a platform and service that we wanted and we said, yeah, we will go with you. It just takes time to get through legal and procurement. They messaged the CEO to try and shimmy it along, and the CTO as well. And we were like, no, you don't need to bother them. And they just went totally over our heads as if we weren't there and they couldn't do anything either. It was going through legal. And the same with social media agencies where they would go, well, what your internal team is doing wrong is this and that's not any way to get on side with an internal team. It's about being an ally because internal teams are tired and pushed for time. We did a survey recently on senior marketeers and it was just a small survey, but a lot of them were trying to get out of the weeds because day to day they'll bogged down in all of the problems and they couldn't get to strategy and do the research that they needed. So you're not in a battle with them, you're helping them with because they're so short on time. This is why we speak to marketeers, we've been there. We understand that they do not have the capacity, particularly cost of living crisis redundancies being made left, right and centre and this is what you need to do. It's the empathy. Don't try and seltom understand how difficult is their budgets are being reduced so they don't have as much time for anything because they've got smaller teams, less agencies. So your agency really needs to offer value and the value offer is not always a marketing value. When you're an internal marketer and you've got these agencies coming in that are telling you what you've done wrong, then that's going to just get your backup. You've got to be an ally to them because you've got to work together day to day. So it's about building those relationships. And they say human to human marketing. You're not marketing your service and your marketing service to the business, you're marketing to the internal team. What can you do to help? And those internal teams are stressed. They haven't got big enough teams, they haven't got a big enough budget. So they want to know that the agencies that they get on board are going to bring value not just to the business but themselves. The senior marketeer wants to get home to their kids on time, they want to have a lunch break. So you have to think about who you're talking to because if it means they're going to have a better life and you're going to bring the results to the business, then that's what you want. One of our main messages is that we reduce friction and stress internally. Where we have we build the relationship with the marketeer, but we help them build that relationship with the C suite as well. Because one of the biggest pains in a marketeer's life internally is micromanagement constant nitpicking of what are we doing? Why are we doing this? So that's what we do. We try and reduce that way so we can just get on with our jobs, get to our goals. And a lot of it is just that a lot of senior marketers, they don't always understand how to speak to the C suite. About over half of CEOs are from finance and operations backgrounds. They don't understand marketing, they understand money in, money out, they understand cost cutting, everything that as marketers we hear this you need to cut costs, you need to reduce overheads. But they want us to be able to track everything as if you would track lighting in a store, which is very easy to track. So you've got to try and be that translator to help marketing just do their jobs, make their lives easier. For anyone who's been a marketer in house, really it is hard, it's lovely, but you're balancing a lot of politics and you need to make them look confident to back up that their ideas are good and worthwhile. And that when they go to the CEO and say, no, this is the right idea because that makes them look great and it gives them confidence. I saw a survey recently about marketers and quite a lot of them do suffer from impostor syndrome. So if you're helping to give them that confidence, there's all these in fact, I think offering marketing assistance or any assistance at all is 50% your job and 50% just making their lives easier. So that's the angle you go with. I think something that I worked with business owners my entire life and interspersed with that there was working with internal marketing people. I was typically working directly with the business owner and so I evolved strategies for dealing with business owners. And what's really interesting is when I watch people who aren't accustomed to dealing with business owners, they typically will fall into the same trap of if you don't provide a system and a strategy and a plan, expect one to be imposed on you because that's what business owners do. They make plans and they shape the world around them. And wherever there's a void or a vacuum of no clear strategy, they're going to feel the itch that they need to scratch that. And I see that with a lot of freelancers that they end up with a client swamping them. You have to use the clients systems and processes. That's no way to scale your own business. But from an internal marketer's perspective, they are not C suite. So they have never had to take charge in that way. And I think what you allow, and this is really to get to the nuts of where is your value for internal marketing people? It's somebody who can provide that layer of this is the plan, dude, please just trust the process. Because the internal marketing person, they might have it in the heart, they might have it in the gut, but that's not good enough for the C suite. It needs to be there and clear and transparent. So that makes a lot of sense to me. I don't know if that makes sense to you. Yeah, no, 100% agree. It was interesting you're saying about strategy because there's a stat that I use in I think, is our ebook and it talks about, I think, 38% or somewhere around there of people of of marketeers don't actually have a written down strategy. So when you don't have a written down strategy, the business owner, the CEO gets nervous because they can't see, like you said, that plan of action, what's going to happen and what's going to go ahead. It's funny. I use one of our favourite quotes on our site, which is Sunzoo, which is strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat. You can't have one without the other. And if you're trying to do tactics without a strategy, it tends to be quite random. And makes the CEO nervous. And there's another aspect to this. If we're talking sunzoo, strategy without tactics is slow. Tactics without strategy is just noise. However, if you've got great strategy and great tactics, they are useless without courage. And I think this is why I really love your company name. It's why I like the book, it's why I like the podcast that's sadly on hold at the moment. Because for me, the most commonly missing ingredients of marketing is courage. Whether that's from a personal brand perspective, whether it's from creating the kind of content that's actually going to get noticed rather than just blend in with everybody else's garbage. But you can't invest that courage without as a business owner, if you're going to take risks, you want them to be calculated, you want that to be directed by a plan that you have confidence in. No soldier is ever going to run into battle without being confident in the plan that he's been given. And it's exactly the same for anybody whose role it is to take those risks on behalf of a business. So I think I'm going to leave that there because I want to come back and talk about it in a minute when we look at your own business journey. But maybe the next logical place for us to go is this rather courageously titled book, the Most Amazing Marketing Book Ever. Wow. It could only be the one and only Mark Schaefer, couldn't it? He's the only one bold and courageous amongst the group that could come up with something so audacious, I think. So. I think I would like you to tell the story about the book because it actually has a very odd journey how this book came to be. But I'm not going to tell the story. I'm going to let you tell the story and then we can talk about some of the marketing ideas that are in there that we should know about. Yeah, it's funny because I have known Mark Schaefer for a while through a local group called You Are the Media, and I got onto his Rise community, which is it initially started, you had to have cryptocurrency to go into it and he was experimenting with using that to sort of subscribe. And I came on there and joined everyone and we were all humming and harring about someone had suggested a what wouldn't it be nice if we wrote a book together? I believe it was from Mark, from memory, it was Mark. We've got a lot of knowledge here because, well, in the group there's people that know about almost every subject. And the thing is, when you get a lot of marketing books, it's normally by one or two authors that maybe have either very generalist overview or very specific knowledge in one area. And the thought was, well, what happens if we got experts in each area to write a book? We've got then this huge wealth of knowledge. And when you read a book, sometimes you really go, oh, this person really knows a lot about this area, but this part of the book feels a bit weak. We wanted a book that was strong all the way through, so there was a sort of brainstorm and a Google document was involved, and a Google Sheet as well. And there was ideas for titles, like what chapter titles roughly could we have, what topics do we want to cover? And there's about sort of 50, 60 to start with. We all sort of looked at it and sort of picked what we wanted. So I ended up with experiential marketing and user generated content. I don't think anyone else wanted it, but as I'd worked in gaming, I really like Experiential marketing. I used to work at Game, the video games retailer, in house marketing, and we had Belong, which was trying to recreate experiences on the high street. So it was a big passion of mine. And I love how it helps brands really stand out. We have marketing strategy, TikTok, pretty much every marketing topic you want. We did have a few spare, so maybe that's the second book. And it's a really interesting book, writing a book as a group, because there's a lot more organisation involved. Poor Mark. I think he probably felt like herding cats with us because it's powerful, because you have all of these people with lots of ideas, but you also have lots of different personalities and lots of different time frames. Because we're over ten countries, from the US. To Sri Lanka to the UK island, so there's timescales to deal with, there's people's, different work schedules. So it was really difficult trying to make sure everyone's on an author call, where we're all talking together and planning. So the main planning started in October last year, so not long ago, and that's when we all agreed we were going to sit down, we were going to write a chapter of this book each. So we did a contract, signed it all and then we had our chapter. Mark decided the best idea would be to do it in a structured form, so we had a template of the structure of each chapter, so it felt quite harmonious as it went through. So he gave us this example, he wrote his chapter to say, this is how I wrote my chapter, with this template. Here you go, you follow on. And then we were just sort of left to write our chapters and we had to get them in in a couple of months. It's weird, because the chapters aren't hugely long, they're probably about as long as a blog post, decent length blog post, but it felt long because the pressure of having to make sure you do a chapter, that's good enough, not just for Mark, but the other 35 authors, that you don't want to let them down. Yeah, as well. I think a lot of the time when people are writing a book, they have a whole book, 35, 50,000 words to communicate whatever it is they need to communicate. You only have a fraction of that, so you have to be much more mindful about the words you're using and being as succinct as you possibly can be. And also you can't do everything you probably want to do. It was a lot of us spent a lot of time trimming our chapters down from about four times the size to where we actually finally got to I'm not the most concise person. I do like to waffle a little bit. So it was keeping myself on topic, really relevant. It's aimed at more of a small business audience, so making sure it's something that isn't too unpractical, really just being really helpful tips. So what we did, yeah, we just beavered away at these chapters and turned them into a draught format and we all went through the regular process. So we draught formatted it. We then sent it in. They had editors, first line editors who were part of the group, to edit them, send them back, and then they had a professional editor. So it went through a similar process with making sure there's going to be a lot of voices in there, but making sure they weren't too different, so that it felt jarring between the chapters was an interesting thing, because normally you used a book with all the same tone in it and it has to feel continuous read. So that was an interesting task for them. So I am curious, from a marketer's perspective, have the different contributors had an opportunity to see the whole manuscript yet? We have. So we saw the first draught when it was formatted for print, so we got to do a last minute edit on that. And then we've just recently seen the Kindle format. We haven't seen the audiobook, so we all recorded an audiobook as well, which is going to be such an interesting listen because there's so many different accents and tones of voices. So we all read our chapters and they've compiled it as an audiobook. I can't wait to listen to that. That's good for something else. I haven't heard it yet. I'm so excited. So what I would like to know, if you have seen the manuscript, you know, what's in it, what are a couple of ideas that you've taken a step back and thought, I wish I'd thought of that. That's just slap the forehead. This is going to be awesome. I can't wait to implement it. So I think there's some interesting bits from things like TikTok I don't know very well. So there were some really interesting bits. I can't remember the specifics, but it was around sort of how to approach it and some of the ideas that you can use in video. My approach to TikTok is very random and I think a lot of us are I feel like I'm not a native TikTok. So that was one that I really found that there's going to be a lot of value in, and I don't know if any of our listeners, if they're struggling on TikTok, that was really useful. And there's some interesting ones. Yuri talks about web Three, which is the cryptocurrency area, which is not something I'd thought about as a business, but as I saw Mark Schaefer using it, there's this interesting possibility of how we can monetize our businesses and how we can think of different ways. And even if you don't use cryptocurrency, it does get that thought process going of is there any other ways can we think I hate the outside the box of how we monetize our way and how we encourage our followers to join us, because Mark's way was really interesting using the cryptocurrency. And I think that will spark some ideas on, I think for small business, I think people don't think that you can use it, you can't monetize your followers, you can't do something more with your community, but actually maybe there is something in there. I find that smaller businesses actually have those more loyal communities, so actually there might be something that they could get from that, where they think actually this might be a nice passive revenue stream or something. Yeah, I think the technology is sitting underneath. I think the problem with cryptocurrency is the word currency. That what the underlying technology makes possible at some point in the future is game changing for the world, very similar to the way AI is. I see a lot of people putting themselves forwards as AI content experts right now, and I think I could easily do that because it's actually fairly straightforward. The problem is it's going to be so all pervasive in probably five years. It would be like standing up and saying, I'm the internet expert, it's going to be all pervading. And for me it's a poor investment blockchain. And crypto is very similar. And I think on that basis it's really important to start understanding now because it is going to be as fundamental as the internet was. I find myself, I remember back in the late ninety s, and I was saying, hey, you know what, business owners, you should get into the internet, it's going to be really big. That's how I feel with AI now, but it's going to go much, much faster. And this is the same with crypto, but I think the vocabulary around crypto is all negative. It's all around the whole get rich quick community that it's created a really misunderstanding environment for most businesses. There's a big translation gap and a lot of bad press, but we'll find a way through that soon. And I think similarly with TikTok, yeah, TikTok is all about the detail, it's all about the tactics. And I think a lot of business owners, me included, don't really want to invest in the tactics until I'm confident that I'm not going to be left with egg on my face. And I think this really, I guess, takes us to the next part of the conversation, which you kind of hint at with your business name, the podcast, which is really this courage element. Because for me, that's the thread that really leads towards marketing success at any level of business. If you look at the direction of travel, for marketing as a whole, it's all about person to person, it's all about relationship, it's about authenticity, it's about connection. And people just connect with people better. But people in most businesses don't really want to invest in themselves because of this simple little thing, fear. And I'm curious to know how you approach this in the corporate environment or in the larger business environment, how do you help people cross that chasm between knowing that this is tactically worthwhile but failing to pull the trigger because they're scared? It's funny because it is a difficulty. One of my favourite quotes is by one of my speaker that I love called Eagle Balker and he says a lot of businesses are looking for the return on investment in innovation and change. And he says, what if we take those three letters ROI and turn them on their head? What about the risk of inaction? So we always calculate the return on investment, but can we calculate what will happen if that we don't do something? How do we calculate that? So, within house teams there is a reluctance. You find there's a lot of short termism in business. What are we going to do next week? What are the goals? Can we get enough sales of our gaming chair for two months time rather than are we going to build business for the future? And a lot of that is born from not having a long term strategy and planning ahead. And some of that is from C suite, not understanding the difference, particularly marketing, between sort of sales activation that Quick. If you've got a sale on, push it out there, you get some sales and just sort of short term activities. Whereas brand building, if you build it up over time, it actually becomes better. When I've done brand building exercises and marketing in house, we've ended up saving a fortune halving our budgets in a few years because we have built up a brand that allows us to sell without funnelling everything into paid marketing, constant paid. We must because we need these sales quick. Quick. And I think there's a lot of issues. So, I mean, I often in house, spent half my time doing basic Marketing 101 presentations to the CFO, just bringing everyone on board. Because I think if people understand how marketing works, it helps them to have that bit more courage to embrace it and be a bit more daring if people don't understand how it works. It's a bit like my thing is called crossing the Content Chasm. It's a bit like standing on the edge of a chasm and going, I'm just going to dive in. I don't know what's at the bottom. So it's that the education. If people know about what they're doing, it gives them a bit more confidence to just break out of their barriers a little bit more. Actually, when I have the Crossing the Content chasm as my podcast name, it was because I'd never expect people to take a leap across the cabin, a leap of faith. Courage can be incremental. It doesn't have to be one big thing, it doesn't have to be a big drop. It can be slow, incremental, not too slow, but it can be incremental. It can be dipping a toe and then doing the next thing, then the next thing, and then you find you're brave and you didn't even know it. One of the things that really struck me in a marketing book, different marketing book, was Mike Mccallowitz's book Get Different, where essentially the book is just lots and lots of case studies about people who did things completely differently from the way that they're normally done. And I think the thing that strikes me with a lot of people's marketing is that they're trying to outordinary each other, if you see what I mean, that they often want their marketing to be the same as everybody else's, but better, instead of being completely different and obviously noticeable. And into this comes when we approach marketing in this way, it's often the one thing that triggers fear in the C Suite more than anything else, because as human beings, we're designed to try and fit in because it was a survival strategy. If you ran as a herd or a group, you weren't going to have be picked off one by one. If somebody was the outlier, they were the one that was going to be picked out, either because they were weak or they were odd and they were going to be shunned or maybe they were crazy. But standing out was never a good survival strategy. Whereas now in business, standing out is a wonderful marketing strategy, but we still have the same primal fear around starting out, which is why nobody's really willing to do things that really get noticed in their marketing. How might you, from a strategic perspective, speak to the C Suite on the one hand, but also the marketer on the other, who's maybe thinking, I can't even suggest this to my boss because he'll just fire me and get somebody else who will just do some really cool, ordinary stuff? I think for us it's about having something to back you up. So one of the things that I talk about a lot is having diverse input into your marketing strategy. Because sometimes in marketing, as a marketing team, I've been in a marketing, you can be a bit siloed and you come up with ideas and from within your. Team. They might sound sensible, but also they haven't maybe been checked or you haven't got any backup. The CEO is an interesting stat that only 32% of CEOs trust their CMO. So there's not much trust in the marketing team. So if the marketing team come up with some ideas and the CEOs are not trusting enough of them, well, I don't think this is going to work because you've just come up with it and I'm not trusting you in this. So what we like to do is make sure that we do a lot of research. So we're big on including internal teams. If someone's got a sales team, we do interviews with them, we say, right, what are the customers asking? What are they saying? And we'll come up with loads of really good information. And even something as small as that, you can say, right, we know this is what customers have want from when they contacted sales. We need to do this action because we found out this information. And it's not just our opinions, this is what they're telling us. And what we like to do is actually get a lot of diverse information. So when I worked at Game previously, I started Ideas Lab, where we gathered information from everyone at the head office and different teams. They could all suggest ideas for marketing operations, bring in all these fresh ideas. We had an insight team that asked customer panels, they did lots of market research to find out what people wanted, got some ideas internally and collectively we came up. Then marketing took all this information, said, right, collectively these are ideas from the business, from operations. If you get them from operations and finance, then the CEO, okay, yeah, I understand where they're coming from. You get stuff from the audience and the audience is saying, we want this. So you're saying, okay, this is what the audience wants. And I'm not saying that. When you present the facts to a co, they always believe them. They don't always there's no one talking. Oh, of course, yes, that's exactly what's going to happen. I totally trust you now. It's not that easy. But if you start getting this data and this information from different parts of the business and the audience, it's not just you against them, it's the business and your audience against them, which is a much more powerful position to be in. And if the audience are saying that they like daring content and they like something different and they're a bit bored of what you're saying, if internal staff are saying that they're bored of what you're saying, then you've got much more areas to sort of push on. The other thing is, don't involve the CEO and everyone at the last minute. Sometimes they just want to be involved a little bit. So going back to Game, we did a revisit to an old campaign which is called Christmas Tinner and one of our analysts had said, oh, every year this comes up in the trends and we don't do anything. It just comes up in the trends and it does really well. Can we do something? And my SEO manager is like, oh, this sounds good. I wanted to do some digital PR and maybe it could make a good digital PR campaign. I could get some SEO value out of it because there was no SEO value from your first campaign. And then we sort of came up with an idea. We got an agency in as well, another point of view. And then we said to them, here's the data. To the CEO, here's the data. This is trending every year. Look at the traffic. We feel like this traffic, we could get some of it. CEO loves a bit of traffic. Yeah, this sounds good. And we said to him, you were here when the original one came out. What do you think? Do you like this? And he said, oh. He says, you know what? There's something interesting that a lot of people like Greg than that have been doing, like vegan and vegetarian sausage rolls. It was like, I wonder if there's anything around that we could do, because it was food orientated. This Christmas dinner was like a gelatinous Christmas dinner and tin, and he kind of just left it at that comment, but he kind of had a little bit of an input and he didn't push it. It was just an idea. And what we ended up doing was thinking, actually, that's a really good idea. So we did a vegan and vegetarian gelatinous Christmas dinner in a tin to make sure we were inclusive of every gamer, and released it and got on the Colbert show and we got budget sign off really easy because we presented the traffic the potential pot of opportunity, and it wasn't set in stone. Everyone knew that the CEO had had a voice, but not meddled too much. The CFO was on board because it wasn't a huge spend, but we knew there was a quite big traffic volume. It's about bringing everyone on that journey with you and understanding that when you see an opportunity, that there might be some potential in it to grab some of that traffic or those user base. And you don't have to act in a silo. You can talk to people throughout the year and just get them on board, so that when you're ready to do stuff, we're all happy families by then. Anna I have learned so much today. I've had so many good ideas. I think what's really interesting is speaking about marketing in larger organisations. There's a lot to learn around marketing in teeny weeny organisations. The principles are the same. Strategy informs tactics. Tactics without execution are just wishes. And if your strategy and your tactics are directed by good information, you can be confident that the action is worth taking. There's a lot more in there I think what I would like to do is, once the book is published, get you back, maybe with a couple of friends, and we can have my first ever panel show, maybe, and we can really dig into a few different bits in the book and just have some fun with it. If people are interested in the book, maybe it's not available yet. It's available in June 20. June 20 June. Yeah. So they can get on a waiting list for that on your website. I'll put a link in the show notes. If people want to connect with you, well, say the link for those listening on the podcast who have their fingers ready, waiting to go shopping. Well, for me, the best place is LinkedIn, actually. I'm always there, so I would say just type in my name, Anna Bravington, into LinkedIn. I am the only Anna Bravington, so I'm really easy to find. Well done. And I'll put a link to the book waiting list page on the website, on the show notes. What's one thing you do now that you wish you'd started five years ago? I think it's actually going back to that courage. It's to believing in myself. So when I started in my own business a couple of years ago, and prior to that, I didn't always believe in my own voice and my actions, and I often did what I thought I should do rather than what I wanted to do. I worked my way up. My career progression was like a normal career progression and I wasn't enjoying it. And actually, I think that courage side is so important. Practise what you preach. We call those that dare. And me and my colleague have both come through a lot of impostor syndrome and we want other people to be courageous and we want ourselves to be courageous. We're going to practise that and every day be a little bit more braver with what we do and work out that because we understand that courage is not a sudden switch that you flick on. You have to work out at it. It is. I think I've been thinking about impostor syndrome a lot recently, and I think the problem with impostor syndrome is the word syndrome. It makes people think that this is something that's fixed. If they've got it, then they're screwed. This just isn't the case. Impostor syndrome is simply a flavour of a lack of confidence. And the only way to get over a lack of confidence is to keep chipping away and expanding your comfort zone over time. Time is the most important aspect and with a little bit of continued effort, you'll find that your comfort zone can extend way beyond where you thought it would. And the nice thing is, once it's expanded, it doesn't come snapping back, it stays way out there. I 100% agree. I think courage is probably the most underrated aspect in marketing. Yeah, absolutely. Anna, you have been great fun. I have had a fantastic time. I've learned heaps. Thank you so much for being such a good guest. I've had such good fun. Well, I'm glad that brings us to the end of another episode. Thank you to you for listening at home. And if you did enjoy the show, then I would gently invite you to leave a five star rating wherever you listen to your podcast. If you're on YouTube, you have it easy. You just hit the like and subscribe buttons. And wherever you listen, share the show with just one person. If you did enjoy the show, then you will also love the personal brand business roadmap. It's 100% free to get from me. It's 50 pages of everything you'll need to start, scale or just fix your expert business. Click or tap the link in the show notes, or just visit Amplifymead Agency Roadmap. Thanks again for listening. Anna. Thank you again for your time and see you all next week. You. Our channel.