'Becoming in Public' - How to Share Your Evolution Without Oversharing, with Renee Frojo

Speaker 2 (00:03) Welcome to Building your Leader Brand. Today on the show, Bob is speaking with Renee Frouillaud. Speaker 1 (00:10) We're allowed to change. We're allowed to contradict ourselves. We're allowed to change our mind, right? And bringing people along for that thought process is another way that you're essentially showing up as more of that individual who really is known respected for the way that they think, right? Speaker 2 (00:33) Hi there, and welcome back to Building Your Leader Brand. My name is Bob Gentle, and every week I speak to incredible people who share their secrets to building, marketing, and monetizing their expertise and the mindset you need for your business to grow and thrive. If you're new to the show, then while you have whatever device that is in your hand, take a second to follow or subscribe. If you are a regular here and you haven't done this yet, you can download the personal brand business roadmap at amplifime. Agency/roadmap or hit the link in the show notes. This week we're talking story, your story, my story. Everybody has a story. Stories are how we connect. To help me with this, I am joined by Renee Froyo. Renee, welcome to the show. Speaker 1 (01:22) Thank you so much for having me. Speaker 2 (01:26) I've been spending some time rummaging around your website. What I love it is you can visit some people's website, some people's social media content, and you meet their business. You meet, a lot of the time, the artifice that they've put together to try to persuade you that you're somebody, they're somebody rather than you can safely pay. But you don't really feel like you've met them. I think a lot of people would love this, but there's all kinds of reasons why they don't. For the listener, I often tie myself up in knots when I introduce my guests. What I'm going to do is I'm going to stop and I'm going to say, can you maybe just tell us a little bit about what it is you do, where you are, and who you work for? Speaker 1 (02:15) I can. I was really excited for you to get to the part, though, that you're about to get to. Speaker 2 (02:22) You probably know where I was going more than I do because I got so caught up in what I was saying. I forgot what my point is. You'll discover I do this a lot. Speaker 1 (02:31) Well, I maybe was making an assumption, but it sounded like you were actually about to unveil the classic ABT storytelling framework or positioning framework which is, Most people do this, but you do this, therefore, this is the- The thing is, I don't know what you do, but I love it. Speaker 2 (02:55) That's why we're speaking. Okay. I know lots of copywriting frameworks, but that's not what you're doing. What is your approach to content and storytelling and things like that? Speaker 1 (03:07) I wonder if it's because it's maybe it looks and feels like a new category for people, but it's not really. I am a brand storyteller. And what that means is I help shape narratives, premise, and then how those narratives in that premise, really how it looks and feels in the world through content, primarily for both startups and individuals now, entrepreneurs, founders, solo business owners. I have naturally fallen into helping people with their personal branding because it's so needed, whether you have a company or you're an individual, building an online presence. And so that's essentially what I do. I took my skill sets as a journalist. I was a journalist for 10 years, and I reported on business stories, primarily for the San Francisco Business Times. And then I did some freelancing for the Chronicle, and I got something in the BBC for your audience. I realised I came into journalism at a time that everything was shifting. Our social media was coming onto the scene, and these big centralised media platforms were no longer the ultimate and only source of truth. I realised that anyone could build their own little media mini empire. It's such a powerful tool to be able to understand how to do that. Speaker 1 (04:50) Because literally anyone can do it now. You pick a platform, you pick a medium, you pick a premise, and then And you start creating. It's not easy, right? It's very time consuming, but it opens up a world of opportunity and possibilities for you and your business. So we were seeing brands do this. We were seeing brands really start acting like media companies and creating content, creating series, creating magazines, creating podcasts and newsletters, and acting like editorial teams and hiring people from editorial with editorial backgrounds to do this. So I thought, I can do this. I can do this both for myself and helping scrappy small startups, small businesses and individuals do it for themselves as well. Speaker 2 (05:40) I hear about storytelling consultants in a corporate environment quite often, where it's the signature story. The problem with a signature story is you tell it once, you tell it again, you're beginning to get repetitive now. It's a story with a big S. This This is our story. The problem is, from a personal brand perspective, we have lots of stories, probably that we're not really conscious of. This is, I think, where the real opportunity for people is, is to understand everything. It's a cliché, everything is content. Speaker 1 (06:21) It is. Speaker 2 (06:24) Everything is not necessarily content unless it's communicated well. For example, when I read your newsletter. It has a wonderful vibe. There's lots of colour and texture. But you take me to a place where you make a point. How do you work with people? I mean, as a journalist, I think it's very easy. I'm not going to say it's very easy. It's native to do it for yourself. But most of the people you meet and most of the people you work with, it's not normal, it's not natural, it's not native in the beginning. There's lots of psychological problems that probably creep in that people need to move past. What does that process look like? Speaker 1 (07:03) I joke that I'm also a business therapist most of the time because that is ultimately what holds people back. Is there fear of so many things, fear of exposure, fear of being taken out of context, fear of embarrassing themselves, fear of not looking credible, essentially. There's also a lack of clarity to your point of where to begin. Everything can be content, but not everything is good content. Where do we begin? We begin in the realm of that big story, actually, that one singular premise or ownable idea. It's more of an exploration than an arrival at this thing, but it ultimately serves as a North Star. So Developing that ownable idea is ultimately, what is the cultural... It's like a look at these big idea. It's like, what is the cultural tension at the moment in my industry, in my space, in my field? And what is the ideal version of the brand I'm building? And then where's the intersection of those two things? Or that's one framework that you could use to arrive at your premise. But ultimately, it's the world thinks this, or everybody seems to think this, but I actually approach it from this perspective, right? Speaker 1 (08:35) And that is based on my years of experience, expertise, how I was raised, who I've worked with, how I've developed my own thought process and my own approach, my own frameworks. So I think this, and therefore, I'm going to help solve this main problem for you. So it's getting very clear on the audience you're serving and the main problem or pain points that they have that you can help with through your unique approach. So once we get clear on what this is and we workshop it into a nice little neat storyline, and then we break it down into three words, and then we try to get it down to one word that you become known for, right? That thing that you own in people's minds. For me right now, it's really storytelling. I have so many people come to me saying, When I know that I want to finally become a better storyteller, to be able to use stories for short form, for building a brand on the internet, I know that I need to come to you. And that's how people refer people to me. It's like it hinges on that word. It's like, I need to figure out how to tell my story. Speaker 1 (09:47) I know exactly who to call. And connexion for me is at the crux of that. There's so much content. There's so much crap. And my ultimate goal, my vision of the the world, the world would be a better place if we could find ways to feel more connected in all the spaces that we're in. And so much of us are spending so much of our time online, either brand building or even our free time. But it feels like such a disconnect. Connected dystopian place for so many of us that just leaves us feeling hollow and empty at the end of the day, especially as AI content is flooding all channels. Someone described it to me that he's feeling sick after scrolling Instagram Instagram or whatever for too long. I just feel sick. And I understand that feeling. And I think it's because it's like someone said, the problem is not that bots are becoming more humanlike, is that humans are becoming more like bots. And we've taken corporate culture and speak and ways of being professional in the world and shaped ourselves into these little robotic corporations in the way that we show up. And my approach is bringing the humanity back into it, bringing the person and the personality back into it. Speaker 1 (11:08) So coming back, it starts to... So that's where my premise is, right? So it starts like, what is that North Star? Getting clear on that audience and those problems. It's like classic marketing framework, right? But then it's finding the intersection of those two things. What matters to me? When have I faced these similar problems, these similar fears, right? Like the real philosophical maybe, or internal problem beneath the exterior problem. And then it's finding those little stories that serve as that point of connexion. That's ultimately the process that I take people through. Speaker 2 (11:44) Big story with a capital S, I totally get. I think everybody listening will understand that foundational premise is important. When it comes to the short form, the showing up day after day after day, How do you take that big story and then inject that into the day to day without being repetitive? By bearing in mind, with the caveat, repetition is not a bad thing. Speaker 1 (12:14) No. Repetition is a necessary thing in this world because depending on where you're showing up, people aren't seeing your message every day. They're very much concerned with what's going on in their own world and inundated with information. So you need to hear a message from someone over and over and over and over again in different ways. I think the bigger challenge is how to do it yourself without getting bored or burnt out on your own message and your own marketing. So I think it comes down to basically with that, That being the ultimate goal. Let's take me, for example. I want to create more connexion. I want to create more content that resonates from this first person point of view personality lens. Okay, so that's the main That's the main... That's in the background and in the header. Then I basically think about the three things that I need to do to get that message across. I need to explain my approach, so market the approach. I need to explain the process. I need to explain the problem. And then I just need to show my personality in different ways, essentially what I value, build my tribe, what I value, what I stand for, what I stand against. Speaker 1 (13:27) So you could see those as four different pillars. Of content. And then within those pillars, we start talking about, Okay, what are all the stories I can tell to show the process? Okay, we can tell a customer story. A customer came to me and was here. And then what we realised was really the problem was this. And after doing this, this, this, now they came to this. So that's a classic customer story, right? Or I take it, like I said earlier, it's a story that I once felt this way. This is what I realised. This is where I am now, right? This very classic story structure is essentially a change. The world was one way, something happened, the world is now another way. And usually The most powerful ones are just a change in perspective, a slight shift in how you see the world or a different approach that you took to get a different outcome. Those are all stories that you can tell. And once you start really developing this narrative intuition, you start seeing them everywhere. I think part of the reason why people connect with my newsletter so much and love it is because I always start with a personal story that I tie to this bigger lesson, which is that it's always got to have a point. Speaker 1 (14:45) There's always a point. Otherwise, why did I just read through that? Why did I waste my time spending through that? Even in social settings, if someone's telling you a story and you're waiting for the punchline, you're waiting for the point. If there isn't one, it's really unsatisfying. Same with all of your content. And I always start with a personal story, and I start seeing these connexions, but not a forced one, right? I think where people have taken this in the wrong direction, and we see somebody many personal stories that give us that sick feeling maybe. Also, it's like, Here's what my wedding taught me about B2B sales. Wrong, right? That's so forced. That's so forced. But in my last newsletter, for an example, I talked about, I was really breaking down this idea of authenticity. I think this authenticity has been corrupted. We're confusing authenticity with oversharing. It's led to all these things like trauma dumping and virtue signalling and all these things that are just in the wrong direction. Speaker 2 (15:47) This was going to be my next question. Speaker 1 (15:49) I'm glad we're getting into it. Authenticity is the wrong goal. When we show up anywhere, we are curating a bit of our persona. It's part of who we are, but it's not our full selves. I'm not going to show up on your show today as my full, authentic self. I didn't get a good night's sleep last night, and I'm real irritable, but I'm not going to show that part of me here. No one wants to see that. I'm saving that for my partner who I feel safe with and who knows me intimately. And so I told the story about how my red-headed seven-year-old really lives up to all the red-headed seven stereotypes. She is authentically an asshole at home sometimes when she's angry, right? She knows that this is a place where she is unconditionally loved so she can really let it all out. But I can't let Mila be her authentic asshole self at school because it's going to hurt her. She's going to get kicked out. She's not going to make friends. We have to shift the goal from I think, to self-awareness was the point I was making. I used my seven-year-old coming home and having a meltdown the other day. Speaker 1 (17:07) I'm being so frustrated as an example of this. You start seeing these connexions in your life, and you start taking these little things as anecdotes to highlight a bigger point around your premise or to highlight a story. You start playing around with... They become metaphors. Everything in your life can become a metaphor. You don't even have to get as personal as that. You don't have to talk about your kids or your family or your personal experiences, you could keep it super focused on your clients or your audience that you talk to every single day. And you have to start developing a system of noticing what it is they're saying, what they're paying attention to, what they're worried about, what they're thinking about, what their goals are, what impact they want to have on the world. You start taking those little nuggets and you use those as inspiration for your content to highlight your greater point, to highlight the value that you provide, the service that you offer, how it's different. And you do that through a very unique lens. They said this the other day, the only thing that we have is our story. Your story literally is your strategy for standing out because no one in the history of the universe has ever lived your exact life with your exact set of experiences in the exact order, with the exact number of people. Speaker 1 (18:23) No one. That's the only thing we have about us that is absolutely unique in this world of business. So use it. When you have to use it. Speaker 2 (18:32) I think I've been doing a study recently on referrals because I'm somebody who, historically, with clients, has talked quite a lot about the importance of outbound sales activity. Frankly, it's the only thing you have direct control of a lot of the time. But if you look at a healthy consulting business, and I would say almost everybody listening, unless you're in a corporate career, and I'm going to talk to you in a moment, we'll see that probably 60 100% of opportunity comes in through relationships. If we think, what is the personal brand? It's how we exist in the minds of other people. The stories that we tell are the raw materials for the imagination, how we exist in their mind. We get to choose. Are we stuffy, professional? Stuffy is not necessarily the right word, but have we given their imagination enough raw material to feel like it's connected to us? Speaker 1 (19:27) Absolutely. Speaker 2 (19:28) Most of the time, no. This is a direct bearing on referral rates because referrals thrive off recency. How recently did somebody feel like they met you? In our world, it's all online. This is going to be online. How recently did somebody feel like they met you? How emotionally connected are they to you? If somebody is emotionally invested in you, that's going to drive opportunity or direction when it's available for this person to share. There are other factors that come into it, but what you're describing there is fuel for that machine. If you're in a corporate career, it's exactly the same. How the people around you, be they customers, be they people senior to you, how they feel about you, will have a direct impact on how you operate in the company. Again, people are watching. I think a lot of the things you're describing there, yes, online content, but this is also conversation. Speaker 1 (20:30) Absolutely. I guarantee you from this conversation, the thing that people will remember about me is that I have a fiery red-headed seven-year-old. That's what they're going to remember, because that's what we can. It's really hard to conceptualise tools and frameworks and expertise, but we can have a movie in our mind, a picture in our mind about a very personal story that somebody shared. And it's that point of connexion. There's an emotional connexion. And maybe the other people who are parents who have kids or have been a fiery kid and described that way, they're going to resonate with that. And that is what they will remember. And absolutely, I agree. I think becoming an intuitive storyteller has helped me and everyone that I've served on sales calls and prospecting to develop that connexion faster, develop that trust faster in meetings, in presentations, just to be more memorable. It serves you way beyond online content. Absolutely. Speaker 2 (21:42) I think also, there are lots of content frameworks, and I think we're going to talk framework in a moment. But I want to pick up on something you mentioned a moment ago, which is beginning with a story and then turning that. This art of the pivot is really powerful. I I think this is something I want to reinforce that you can talk about your pet, or you can talk about how much you love golf, or you can talk about your sausage feet on the beach. Not yours personally, obviously. But finding an authentic way to pivot that into something that's relevant to your customer. A lot of people get really anxious about what they would traditionally call personal content or even unprofessional content. But is that art of being able to pivot from one thing into another that really opens the storytelling up. So I just wanted to reinforce that. Now, frameworks. Before we hit record, you said, I have a framework for this. And I got very excited and then said, I love a framework. I live for frameworks. So what can you offer people to make this whole process just a little a bit more structured. Speaker 1 (23:02) Well, we talked about it already, actually. Let me just bring it back. Let's practise the framework on you so that people can get a live example. That's good. Okay. First of all, what is the main problem that you solve for your clients? What is the main pain point? What is the main issue that they struggle with? Speaker 2 (23:28) The main issue that they struggle with is outrageous complexity and lots of people in silos telling them that their thing is the most important. Speaker 1 (23:39) And how does that make them feel? Speaker 2 (23:43) It makes them feel anxious, stressed, like they're stupid, like everybody else can make this work and they can't. Speaker 1 (23:51) Can you tell me about a specific moment in time when you felt that way? Speaker 2 (23:58) Probably the prior version my business when it was essentially a digital agency. Go back about seven years ago, I worked at that business for a decade and never really got off the starting gates. I mean, to most people, it was doing very well. Everybody in my business got paid, but I never made any money. I could see other people building these companies all over the world and doing really well. Speaker 1 (24:28) What was holding you back? Speaker 2 (24:30) I was not a very good manager. I didn't like telling people what to do. I didn't want to be the bad guy. Speaker 1 (24:37) And then what happened? Speaker 2 (24:41) I think also alongside this, a lot of fear because what I know now is if you want a bigger business, you need to be more valuable to people who have bigger problems. Whereas back then, the idea of what was required in order to push through that more than I was comfortable with chewing off, psychologically. Speaker 1 (25:05) Why? Speaker 2 (25:06) Honestly, I couldn't tell you. Probably because of all the various moving parts that would need to shift. Also, I wasn't comfortable around that person. Speaker 1 (25:22) What person? Speaker 2 (25:23) The people that were very, very, very different to me. Something I've discovered through my work now is people tend to naturally surround themselves with people like themselves. Right. So teeny weeny business owners tend to spend time around other teeny weeny business owners, and they're comfortable with that. So they tend to stay teeny weeny businesses. Whereas if you look at people who build thriving, successful businesses, they tend to surround themselves with other thriving, successful people, which attracts thriving, successful clients. Knowing this, it allows me to operate very differently now. Speaker 1 (26:00) Okay. So who are you surrounding yourself before? Speaker 2 (26:03) I was building my business through itty-bitty local networking. I wasn't really showing up online. I didn't have a podcast. I don't want to be rude and call anybody that knows me from 10 years ago, Mediocre, but a mediocre network, and that leads to limited opportunities. Speaker 1 (26:24) And so what changed for you? What changed where you decided, I'm being held back by The people I'm surrounding myself with. I'm building a business that is not where I see myself. I know I can do better. I know I can be more. These are the goals I have for myself. What changed to make you recognise that and then start taking the first step towards building the thing that you have now? Speaker 2 (26:54) There was the realisation that it had to happen alongside, if if I'm honest, some support and some coaching. I haven't actually reflected on it this way before. I like this. I may end up not publishing this conversation. Usually, when I say that, it does end up happening. I can see, actually, that is a powerful story for anybody that cares to listen. Speaker 1 (27:21) Absolutely. We basically have the story there. The framework, the process that we started with is, what is the biggest thing holding your client's power? What's the main problem they're struggling with? What does that make them feel? What is really holding them back? Usually, it's self-sabotage in some form or another, some fear. When is the time I felt that way? What happened? Give me the story. What changed for me? What realisation did I have to come to? What support did I need? This is where you can start positioning yourself as the guide in this, too. Then what was the outcome? What is the new world that you're in now? Tell us about now. Now, this is 10 years later? Speaker 2 (28:09) I would say, 2018, this journey began. I can't count on podcast at the same time. Speaker 1 (28:16) That's okay. So now you have, are you closer to that goal, or at least on the journey, or have met that goal or surpassed the goal? Okay, so you're here. You've made it. Speaker 2 (28:28) Yeah. I I work with clients all over the world who are all awesome. I have a tiny team. I don't manage people because I don't want to. And commercially, all I'll say is it's been successful. Speaker 1 (28:45) So for this one story, I'd say you want to try to have one takeaway, right? One, maybe two. And you can tell it in many different versions. But for one, it could be, I got the support I needed, right? I got clarity when I needed it, right? And guidance, so I didn't do it alone. And that's where you could position yourself, right? As that person for someone, an ideal client struggling with the same issue. Another one you could do is, it was really the mindset that needed to happen where you recognised you were holding yourself back by staying small and playing small in this small network and not putting yourself out there and building more of an online presence. So that's another one, right? All these things are true. And these are all the different ways that you could tell the story and start in different places and pick different products. But ultimately, that's the big story, right? Speaker 2 (29:43) So it's been really interesting going through that process with you because what you'll be very aware of, and the listener is probably thinking at home as well, is I gave you super top-level safe stuff. But underneath all of this, there's all this stuff that I could have told you, but I don't want to because I actually would like to be able to to accomplish this. It's been really tough, and actually things are freaking amazing now. There was a lot of help I had along the way and a lot of aha moments that it would make sense to share. I can completely understand the business therapist side of things, because if you can work through that and find a way to not sanitise those stories, but come to a point of acceptance and understand them, shine a light on stories that probably their time filled you with a lot of shame. Things are different now. That's going to really connect with people for whom that's still a real journey. Speaker 1 (30:41) It's just digging into Why? Over and over and over again. Why do I feel that way? And why is there shame around this? And should there be? And why does that matter? And why is it this way? Speaker 2 (30:58) I can see the journalist training there. That's definitely an advantage because you know how to ask the awkward questions. But that's where the story is. Speaker 1 (31:07) That's where the connexion is. I think that's really where looking for stories in your everyday life that don't feel forced, that pivot, as you were calling it, comes from. It's really finding the meaning in the thing that happened. If I were to break it down into a process, it's first noticing what's happening in every day. What is a conversation that made me pause to think? What's something I read that shifted my perspective? What's something my kid did that made me laugh or angry or feel a certain way? Then is there a meaning I can give to that? Is there a moment of change in that? That's the raw material for what could potentially be a good story to Essentially, make your case, right? Make your case for whatever the argument is. I think it's important to remember that this is a process of evolution, and in That is the story as well, right? We're allowed to change. We're allowed to contradict ourselves. We're allowed to change our mind. Bringing people along for that thought process is another way that you're essentially showing up as more of that individual who really is known and respected for the way that they think. Speaker 2 (32:39) I think one of the phrases, I realised I've been doing this whole interview with somebody else's notes in front of me. I didn't even need to look at them. But now I've got your notes in front of me. One of the phrases that I took from your website that I really loved was becoming in public. People might be familiar with the idea of build in public, of not necessarily waiting until everything's finished for a grand unveiling. As human beings, this would be entirely unrealistic. And yet that's how a lot of people try and present themselves. I am now the expert. Believe in me and buy from me. When this is unrealistic, one thing I've discovered running this podcast is the most successful people today are not the people they were at the beginning of the journey. They have gone through personal transformation, which is not complete. So allowing that becoming to happen in public so that you can tell people, You know what? This isn't working for me right now, and I'm working on it, but this is working on... You get the picture. I really like the idea of becoming a public. Speaker 1 (33:46) That was something that I came to through this exploration of how we're showing up online in this self-aware way possible and really connecting And I noticed all these people that were clearly working it out and building a tribe through that process of working it out. And then I made the connexion with biographies that are being written, how biographies are being written so much differently now. And it speaks to the culture at large and the cultural tension and what's going on. So before biographies were more complete. It was more like a beginning, a middle, and an end. And this is we're wrapping up their life in this very black and white way. Now they're a little bit more incomplete and full of contradictions and showing the messiness that is being a human. It's not black and white. These stories can't just be wrapped up neatly in a bow and delivered. We're always becoming in public, and it's just a matter of whether or not... How you are sharing some of those rough or unfinished thoughts. But it's really powerful to do so. Speaker 2 (35:08) I think anybody listening, hopefully, they've got that message now and they've got a few little tools to help them kick the process off. I can absolutely see how your content is quite magnetic for the right person. I think it's important. This is one of the beauties of being a content creator is it doesn't have to appeal to everybody. In fact, it's going to probably not work very well if it appeals to everybody. I'm using this as a little bit of a segue that you are doing something that triggers a little bit of jealousy in me, which is this crazy-looking retreat that I saw on your website that I want to ask you about. What is that? It's amazing. Speaker 1 (35:52) It's four days in a location that really takes you out of your day-to-day with other entrepreneurs, online service providers, solo business operators, where we really dig into your story and building an intentional business. Making sure that your marketing, your sales, your process, your systems, and just your goals are really aligned with the business that you want to build for yourself. And it's just an opportunity for really intimate relationship building. Everyone that's coming out of my retreats has used each other, has both hired each other for different projects, become referral partners, and continues to be in community where every day there's something, whether it's just I just lost a client, and now I'm stressing because I don't know what I'm going to do next month or who Has anyone tried this? Oh, I just found... Whatever it is. It's a very natural community of people that you feel very connected to because you've actually spent four days doing the work together and having a safe space to tell us some of those deeper, maybe more shameful stories or stories that you don't feel comfortable sharing publicly. The first one was in Costa Rica. The next one was in Mexico City, and I'm having... Speaker 1 (37:09) The third one is going to be in the Redwoods of California, in Mendacino. Completely different experience in April of 2026. Speaker 2 (37:19) It sounds absolutely mesmerising. I'm curious to know, how does that come about? How do you go from being a storytelling consultant to pulling something like that off? Because it sounds very simple running a retreat, but it's quite a business enterprise. Speaker 1 (37:36) It's a heavy lift. I think there's nothing more powerful than in-person connexion, and I didn't see anything like that, specifically. I saw a lot of online communities, and I just didn't see anyone doing it, so I decided I was going to do it myself. I found a good partner to do it with, a really talented coach. And yeah, it's not easy. It's a lot of work and logistics and coordinating and there's marketing and selling the thing. But now I have a waitlist of people who have seen previous retreats and know they want to make it. So you just like anything. You decide, Okay, I want to make this thing happen. You talk to the people who've done it. You try to learn as much as you can, and then you just test it. You just go out with when and learn from those mistakes, and then make a better version the second time. Speaker 2 (38:25) Yeah. Well, for anybody in the US, it's extremely good value for money. I have to say. Coming from Europe, it's a bit of a heavier lift. But if you're in the US, absolutely look at this. It looks like really good value and a wonderful event. Speaker 1 (38:41) I do want to do one in Europe. I was thinking maybe Portugal in 2027. We'll come over there. Maybe. Speaker 2 (38:49) So, Rene, let's move to part two. We've gone a little bit over the time that I said we would. I do apologise. But this is the part where we pivot into three things. What I'm I'm trying to remember to call you three amplifiers. So thing number one, what do you have for us? Speaker 1 (39:10) I think one of the most helpful books that I've ever read on really building a human brand and connexion is called The Human Brand by Susan Fisk, who's a Yale researcher. And she came up with this model that basically helps us understand how how we size each other up, like how people size each other up instantly, or how we size brands up instantly. And it comes from the same place. So she talks about the evolution of brand and where it's coming back to now. And credibility, the way that we measure credibility or size somebody up for their credibility is warmth plus competence. So you have to have equal parts warmth and project equal parts competence. If you're all expert, all competence, all frameworks and formulas and tools and expertise and how-tos, you're not going to capture people. They're not going to trust you. It's hard to build that trust. If you're all warmth, if you're all personality and stories and personal content or whatever it is, however you show up and you can't exhibit competence, then you cannot build that trust. So yes, equal parts, warmth, confidence, that's what ultimately equals credibility. Speaker 2 (40:29) You need I am going to order that book. I'm excited. Speaker 1 (40:33) It's great. I know. What's her name? There's a woman who basically has become a very well-known coach. What does she do? Basically, she teaches people how to be charismatic. She's this big personality. She's on all the big podcast and TV shows because everyone would love to know how to be that magnetic, charismatic person that everybody loves, immediately feels comfortable around, shows this credibility in folks. And she uses that formula. I don't know if she gives Susan Fisk credit for it, but that's basically the... She calls it something else, but that is the foundation of all of it. It's all the ways in which you demonstrate or project warmth and competence. Okay, that's number one. Speaker 2 (41:21) Okay. Amplifier number two. Speaker 1 (41:23) Amplifier number two. One of, I think, the most helpful people in this, I idea of premise development, notable idea who I've learned from is Jay Akunzo. He has a podcast called How Stories Happen, where he talks to excellent communicators, really effective communicators, and he breaks down their stories and what works. I highly recommend that one. I've learned a lot from him. Speaker 2 (41:49) I've written that down. I'll check it out. April fire, number three. Speaker 1 (41:54) Number three, Homework for Life. Okay, this one comes from Matthew Dix. He's written several books on storytelling. Storyworthy is what he's known for. He is a Moth Grand Slam champion 20 times over. If you're not familiar with the Moth, it is the number one oral story telling organisation in the United States. Anyone can come to the Moth and tell their story, and they have competitions. Matthew Dix won all of them, and now he's a very sought-after consultant. Homework for Life is how he never runs out of stories. This is this practise of noticing that you turn into a system. So every day, he has a document that's like, no, however many pages long because he's been doing it for every day for 10 years. He takes five minutes to say, What would be If I had to tell a story about today, what would it be? He doesn't write the full story. He just writes some notes to jog his memory. And I do this practise, too. And how you find that thing is what made me feel today, right? What made me feel angry? What made me feel excited, what made me sad, mad, notice, whatever it is. Speaker 1 (43:01) What was that little change that happened? There's the story, Nugget. And then just notes on what was happening. And that's how you have just an endless database of inspiration for raw material, for stories. That you can use anywhere. Speaker 2 (43:17) I really like that. I came across a journal called a Story Journal, which is basically every day, three lines, what was the story today? But this gives me on those bones. I really like that. I have not heard of any of these things, which is a treat for me. Rene Frouillet, this has been really good fun. It's been great to get to know you. I would love to have you back sometime because Often the second interviews are much better because by that time we're friends. But for today, thank you so much. Speaker 1 (43:52) Thank you, Bob. It was a real pleasure. Speaker 2 (43:54) That does bring us to the end of another episode. Thank you at home for listening. If you did enjoy the show, I would invite you to leave five-star reviews wherever you listen to podcasts, especially my Spotify listeners. Go for it. It really does help me out with the rankings and discoverability. Also, if you did enjoy the show, you will love the personal brand, The Business Roadmap. Fifty pages of everything you need to start, scale, or fix your expert business, 100% free as a gift from me. Just visit the link in the show notes or visit amplifime. Agency/roadmap. Thank you again for listening and, thank you so much for joining us. Speaker 1 (44:32) Thank you.