Make your sales about dreams coming true, with Paul Higgins

Welcome to Amplify, the personal brand entrepreneur show. Today on the show, Bob is speaking with Paul Higgins. The fundamental thing in all of this is just if you wouldn't like it, neither will anyone else, right? So there's thousands of scripts out there and all these experts saying, do it this way, and unfortunately, a lot of them don't work because they're not you. The only thing unique in this world is you, right? So you've got to leverage you. And that's why we say if you don't look like a douchebag first, start with your network. All you got to do is just ask someone in your network that you've already built. Hi there, and welcome back to Amplify, the first of brand entrepreneurship, where every week I speak to amazing people who share what makes their business. If you're new to the show, then while you still have your device in your hand, take a second to subscribe. And if you're a regular listener, just a reminder that Bob loves reviews and ratings, and you would literally change my day if I saw a notification come through for that. So this week, we're going to be talking about something which, despite our species having been trying to do it for thousands of years, people still find new reasons every day to make it difficult or just plain avoid. And I'm talking about sales and selling. Your ability to kill what you eat is still what separates a hobby from a business and a business which will thrive. So this week, I'm really excited to welcome a master of the old school art of selling, Paul Higgins to the show. Paul, welcome to the show. Thanks, Bob. Great to be here, and thanks for everyone listening. So I am really excited to have you here, and it's important for me to maybe qualify a little bit what I said for the listener that although you're sort of well grounded in sales, you're not an old fashioned sales professional by any means. Being classically trained in what you might call the forges of corporate sales is one thing, and that's something you have in space, but your business is firmly rooted in the 21st century personal brand business. So for the listener who is maybe new to Paul Higgins, could you maybe give us a bit of an introduction, some background and some orientation as to around what it is you do and the kind of people you do it for and where you are? Yes. So I'm Paul Higgins from Paul Higgins Mentoring. I'm based in Melbourne, Australia, but work globally. Any English speaking, that's the only language I can tackle at this stage. And who I help. I help people that are consulting, selling, and implementing technology. So you might call it SAS, you might call it technology, whatever comes to mind. But if you're thinking Microsoft salesforce HubSpot, some of those tools that help businesses grow, well, I help those people to scale their business and in short, that's what I did before I sold my business. So I can definitely help them avoid some of the mistakes I made. But also what I do is very applicable to any service based business and really any B to B business. One of the things that I found about sales is that the principles are universal. They applied to every business, but maybe varies in every business is the vocabulary that organisation uses, maybe knowledge, experience and understanding around the particular problems. But the process of actually selling is universal. The skills required, they're very transferable. So this is one of the reasons I was really keen to speak to you, is you are really good at your specific niche area, which is SaaS and helping people in that space. So but like you said, it's universal, it's very widely applicable. A place I would like to start, this maybe is very obvious, but sometimes a very obvious place is the best place to start for the listener. Maybe tell us a little bit about your background, your background and sales, where it started, how it grew and then what led you to choose SAS and SAS sales. Because I think that will give a little bit of a context and some depth to where we can probably go later on, which is the universal processes of sales and how everybody can maybe find themselves not some shortcuts, but in a lot of things. Complexity is the answer, simplicity is the answer. So how did you grow into sales and what did that original career look like? Yeah, well, I honestly started sales or watching sales, when I was about three. My dad worked for a company that ended up being acquired by Coca Cola. And dad was a successful person, a salesperson at Coca Cola, and he's wingman. I just followed him everywhere. I followed him to the factory where we used to see the bottles in those days run down the line. And I vividly remember my mum saying, you can't have any. And my dad being very laxed. So we used to even have a towel that we wiped all of the fanta from our tongues before we walked in the door to ask us to show our tongues. But, yeah, it really started then. So I followed dad and then I was fortunate enough going through university, did a mix of accounting and marketing. So I was always arguing with myself that Coke had a lot of part time jobs, so I spent a lot of time in supermarkets, whatever you call them, around the world, retailers, stacking boxes and selling. And I was convinced that I would never have a role within Coca Cola. They didn't believe in employing any family members at that particular point. And I thought, okay, I'll go more into general business, probably through sales, but then into more general business. And long story short, I got really desperate. I was about to head overseas and they said look do this job for six weeks and it lasted 18 years. So I think that gives a pretty good background. And I think one of the things that really excites me on that is a lot of people come into a role never having had any experience of it, but when you come in, having grown up around it, it's a very different thing. Similarly, my dad ran his own business from the age of, I think, 35 or 40, which was the point at which I was maybe in my early teens. So I spent a lot of my formative years observing how a business was run and kind of absorbed an awful lot of that independent spirit just through osmosis. And so for me, it seems like a perfectly natural thing to run and own your own business. I couldn't imagine any other life, but I don't see that everywhere I go. For a lot of people to look at it as quite alien, and I think for many people, sales and selling is quite alien. If they've never had to do it, if you've never had to kill what you eat, if you've always been able to go to the supermarket and somebody's done that for you metaphorically, then it's a terrifying thing. So for those people who maybe haven't experienced a lot of sales and a long sales career like you, I think a lot of people are missing processes. They're making the same mistakes over and over and over and over again. So I'm going to ask the daft lady question, I guess, which is what are the most common mistakes that you see people making when they approach just the basics of selling? The most common one I see is that they're more interested in themselves and their products than they are the people they're selling, too. That's the most obvious one. And I think that sometimes just comes from fear. It's fear of what do I do? And often when you get fearful, you then default to the easiest thing. And the easiest thing is you know what you're doing, right, you know what you're selling, so therefore you'll talk about that, whereas the real art to sales will probably touch on it. But just briefly, I've been very fortunate to have a transplant and I spent a lot of time with my mum, who had the same condition as me. And so I followed dad into sales and I followed Mum into the medical world. I know which one I'd rather be. In the medical world, doctors are prediasing before they prescribe. And that's something that I was very fortunate as you talk about when I talk about my parents. My dad had polio, really didn't do any schooling, so all he knew was to talk. And dad is just a guy that everyone loves. Everyone loves Joey. He's great fun to be around, a real comedian and just everyone fell in love, falls in love with him. But my mom was a very planned and organised teacher and she's a curriculum advisor, so I was very fortunate that I sort of had both combined. So Mum's teacher learning always been inquisitive was something that I took into sales, which I think today is more the case. Whereas when we're originally taught, and even back in 93, 94, when I started Coca Cola, they're pretty aggressive and probably, certainly here in Australia, we weren't like because we had so much market power and if you didn't like what we liked or had for you, well, that's fine, we'll just go to someone else. And then as time went on, it got a lot more difficult and therefore you had to be better. But I think that's the biggest thing people get wrong is that they don't really look at it's. Like looking independently at the situation and really trying to solve the problem for the client regardless of what you've got, and then see if it matches it. I love that I've had to write down diagnosed before you prescribe. That was going to be my Quote of the week. I think it's so obvious. But like a lot of smart things, just because they're obvious doesn't mean that they're easier. Actually. You see this everywhere you go. People leading with a prescription, not with the diagnosis. It's really smart. Here's the thing. Old fashioned sales was largely about shoe leather. You build relationships, you meet people, you spend time with them, you get to know them. As my last Australian guest said, people buy into you before they buy from you. And in a small community or in a city where your relationship selling, that's fairly easy to maintain. Where you're doing business globally or where you're in a very specific niche, where there may be are only a handful of people in your local area who fit that bill, you have to go wider. And when you go wider, your shoe lather is not going to cut it anymore. So when I introduced your business rather ham fistedly as a 21st century business, but using and teaching very old fashioned principles, how do you specifically help people that maybe aren't traditionally trained in sales? Take these old fashioned principles out into the global marketplace in a way that makes sense and it's structured and disciplined in the same way that managing your diary as a sales rep for Coca Cola, for example, might be a great question. I think everyone's got the skill and ability or most people know how to meet people socially, right? So if you walk into a room, you'll typically talk to people and the best conversations when you ask someone about them, not you. So that follows the same principle and I think it's very much those are the things that you just need to put into your business and your sales philosophy. So I think that's definitely something where you're more natural and it is just like meeting a new friend for the first time, right? Treat it the exact same. I think the other opportunity is just the ability to niche your niche. Down has never been greater in Scotland. I'm here in Australia. We're doing this podcast because of technology. I haven't seen a client of mine probably in five years, most of them in the US or other parts of the world. And it's all done through technology, especially as a solo prior. I think the best thing is to really say, hey, this is exactly who I help, and in your copy everything, always. If someone had a great call with a client today and verbatim the words that they gave me, I'm now going to use in one of my landing pages because it was my ideal client. And they spoke more articulately about their problem than what I can, because I don't have that problem anymore. I've solved it. So I think it's really niching down or niching down and be comfortable that you're going to not serve all the traffic in the world. And I use an analogy like a football stadium, which we've all got, where you're not trying to get every person in the stadium to be a client. You're just looking at a particular row or a particular super box or something and just working on them. And I know Kelly always talks about the 1000 Raving fans. The great thing now is you can have those thousand Raving fans anywhere in the world, but they know you for one specific thing, and that specific thing is solving their problems. So you have a podcast, and as such, you have a platform and you have an audience that's attracted to that. You're active in other areas as well. You're active on YouTube. For the listener. What's your podcast called? It's the Accelerate sales podcast. You can hit pause. You can go and have a look now, but do come back. So when I look at opportunities and my listener will be familiar with this kind of question because it's what I ask a lot. Opportunity can come through referral, and referral is great. Opportunity can come through content inbound and through your podcast. You see a lot of that, but it can also come through the more traditional outbound sales activity. So a lot of people who don't have platforms, they fall back on the referral and outbound sales activity and content and a platform can take time to build. So, yes, for the content side of things, that beacon that you're creating, it needs to have a very clear signal and a very strong signal, and that's where the niche becomes profoundly important. But for the person who's maybe at the beginning of the journey, they don't have that content bank yet, where they're really depending on a referral, which is hard to scale, and outbound sales, which is the only thing that you really can control in the short to medium term. What would be your advice for an outbound sales strategy that they could control, that they were no longer at the whims of people responding to their social media content or that kind of stuff. How can you put one of your clients in the driver's seat tomorrow? Yeah, so I look at why going from easiest to hardest. So I look at four key areas that you can work on to build your audience, because ultimately you want an audience, but you've got to get people, you've got to go outbound to begin with. Like you said, if you don't have a fantastic podcast at the moment, or you don't have a YouTube channel, you don't have ways of drawing it in, facebook ads aren't working, et cetera. How else so quickly, before your network, your first connections on LinkedIn, your clients connections on LinkedIn, and then the fourth one is your second and third connections on LinkedIn. So with all my clients, we go from left to right if you're drawing it up on a paper at the moment. So on the left you'd have network, then connections, then clients connections, and then on the far right would be second and third connections. And basically we have steps in each of those so that you can go from people that know you and the warmest to the coldest. I was hoping that this was where you were going to go with this answer, because I know that you're a legend. When it comes to the LinkedIn outreach. A lot of common objections I hear to LinkedIn outreach are it often comes across as really a bit sleazy. But this is actually true of a lot of badly organised, badly structured and badly executed sales. Feels sleazy when it's been done badly. How do you safeguard and sort of educate people in order to avoid the sleaze trap? Because I think for a lot of people that are listening, they are hearing this and they're thinking, on the one hand, I like the idea of LinkedIn outreach because it is something I'm in control of. I simply show up and do the job and I will eventually see the results. Sales, in many respects, is a numbers game, but for the listener who's thinking, I like that, but I'm worried about coming across as a bit of a douche, how can they prevent that? What are the things they should be avoiding or making sure that they do do? Yeah, well, so think wherever you're listening in the world, whatever sport translates to football for you. So we've got a strange if you haven't seen it, it's worth having a look at it. It's very unique, but it might be Hurley, it might be soccer, whatever it is. There was a famous Australian rules player and he used to carry a card in his wallet that said, don't ever forget you are once a player. So as a coach, that's what he kept reminding himself of. And I think the fundamental thing in all of this is just if you wouldn't like it, neither will anyone else, right? So there are thousands of scripts out there and all these experts saying, do it this way. And unfortunately, a lot of them don't work because they're not you. The only thing unique in this world is you, right? So you've got to leverage you. And that's why we say is if you don't look like a douchebag, first start with your network. All you got to do is just ask someone in your network that you've already built. If you think of Franklin Kevin, say, put in the bank deposits. You need to put in the deposits before you take the withdrawals. But you've already got people in your network that really you've done things for them in the past and there's a lot of deposits right in that bank account. Go and ask them, do you know someone like this? Pretty simple. And that's all you've got to do. You've got to ask them. And don't ask for do you know lots of people like this? Just say one person does one person come to mind for this particular thing? And you'll be amazed at how many people do. Then the next one is your connections. You basically go do the same thing. You just go, do you know this person with this problem? And then the clients connections, you already know that you've sold it for the client. So you go through the client and you take the hard work out for the client. Because how many times does people say, do you know someone like this? And they're like, oh, I don't know, I'll come back to you. Well, wouldn't it be great if you just go to their LinkedIn connections, see your ideal client perfectly in there, and just say, hey, I just want someone could you introduce me to Bob? And they're like, yeah, okay, I could do that. Right? So see that? That's not being spammy. It's actually leveraging in the work. It's how the world is sort of always worked. Now it's just expediated by online. And then the last one is you do reach out to someone else. But by that stage you've already got some credibility on your profile. You've already put out good content, you've got strong recommendations, and then you've earned the right to then go out to strangers. And what are the most common problems that you find when people take that very simple information and then try and execute it? Everyone's busy, right? Which isn't over obvious statement, but a Coke brand manager once said to me that we think of Coca Cola 24/7. It occupies everything we do. For a consumer, it's a spec in their lifetime, right? In their given day, they might just for 1 second think about what soft drink am I going to have? But we think about it. Twenty four, seven. I think what people tend to do is have too much information and if someone's really busy, they might allocate 1 minute to read what you've got. So you've got to make sure that it fits that 1 minute because they're not thinking about you and your solution 24/7. But you might be and you probably are, right? So I think that's the biggest thing, brevity is definitely your friend and always have a question. And the other word that I always say ask people to think about using is open. Are you open to the question? Right. And we've been testing at the moment some pattern interrupted. So a pattern interrupted might be like the logo, right? So you're approaching someone, they've got a great logo and you just might say to them, hey, did you design that logo yourself or did someone give you a hand? Right now that's not spammy. You're actually taking a photo of their logo, you're actually circling it and you're putting that image in the message right after they've connected. So they're the type of things you can do and it's nice and brief, it's not like everybody else is doing outreach and all of a sudden you don't look spammy. Have you come across Phil Jones book? Exactly what to say. No, I haven't. It is literally witchcraft for exactly this kind of thing. Anybody listening, this is probably the smallest book you will ever buy and it's just genius. It's so good. I'll send you a link after the show. Yeah, great. Paul for anybody listening and you're looking for something that's always going to lead to a conversation rather than things being shut down, it's great. One thing that stands out for me with you is a lot of salespeople. They're kind of busy, they're kind of used to doing things the way they've always done them and you kind of stand out as somebody who's blazing quite a different trail in my world. It's kind of a proven path. Here's the thing, podcasts are brilliant. Podcasts are really good, they're great content, it's great for building an audience, it's great for building trust, but a lot of people underestimate their potential as part of the sales process and I think that's something that you've leveraged really well. How have you integrated your podcast into, I guess, your sales process? How does it find a home there? I'm hoping you can understand the question I'm trying to kind of not quite getting. No, I completely understand. So there's probably three key ways. So one is that obviously people listen to it and approach me. So that's one way. The second is that we post on LinkedIn three times a week and two of those around the podcast. So that's another way of finding it. And then the third thing is that when I'm in the sales process and I know that there's a specific piece of value that someone says, look, I've got this problem and I've already recorded a podcast on that and it might not be mine, it might be something I've listened to, I listened about two and a half hours or two and a half times speed a day. So I collected and then what I'll do is just send them that value. Because how often does someone say, hey, I'm circling back, or where you're at with this? Or have you spoken to your wife? Or whatever it is, right? And people know why you're reaching out. You don't need to make it that obvious. But if you gave them a little snippet of value, like a segment of your podcast or say hey, I covered what you said in our call, this is something for you, then that's building that like no one trusts you and that's what I do. And also if there's someone that I might have had an encounter with whenever it is, if I hear a podcast and I think that'd be perfect for them or I create one, I think that would be perfect for them, I send it to them as well. So they're the three ways basically they find me through listening, whether it's my YouTube channel or through whatever device they're on. The second is around the post where we provide on LinkedIn. And the third way is using it in the sales process to add value. I think this is something that I find so often that success leaves clues. And one of those clues is that community is incredibly important to success. No person ever becomes successful as an isolated person. There's always a community aspect to this. And what I mean by that is community in the wider sense. It's one to one relationships, but it's also about service and showing up for other people and bringing as much value as you can to as many people as you can. That is a clear success indicator. Maybe a bit of a lag indicator sometimes, but it rarely goes unrewarded. But a lot of people try and shortcut that. What you've done is take being really well known in your community to being really well known in a niche community in cyberspace. And that can help but elevate your business going maybe into community a little bit. You have a free community for your niche, for people within the SAS consulting and integration space, I guess free is not something a lot of people who come from a traditional sales background, it is usually not in their vocabulary. It's reasonably well known, but more broadly as I could sort of step along the sales funnel, so to speak. But my question is what was the genesis of that? How did that begin and how did it grow? Because I know at the moment you have, I think it's a couple of hundred people in your niche in that community, but how did it begin and how did you grow it and what were the challenges along the way? Yeah, good question. I think it just all comes with learning. Like most of you listening are smart, you'll work something out, it's just how quick, you can work it out. Right? And so, for me, I used to always build something and hope they come, which I'm sure you're all chuckling at the moment thinking, yes, I've done that before. So this time around, I actually really said, okay, well, I'm going to build the audience first and then I'm going to find out what they want and then provide it. Which sounds so obvious, right? But it does take courage to do that because I basically turned off some of my revenue. So whilst you're building your audience, you're not getting as much revenue in, right? So you need to plan and prepare for that. But in short, what I did was just use LinkedIn outreach to build that community. So I wish it was 200 bubbles. At the moment, it's around, I think, about 120, but it's going up by five to ten each week. And, yeah, we just effectively used a really good campaign on LinkedIn. We've found that the right audience, we've sent the right message and they've come in and now it's starting to be referred to by others and it's starting to create a snowball. But, yeah, I practise what I preach, so whenever I mentor people or work with people, it's always based on what we've tested and applied ourselves. And I think because you are so clear on your niche, big numbers actually don't matter that much, because the value of a client for you is significant, because the ROI potential is there. I think a lot of people underestimate the value of a small community. It's all about focus, I guess, and potential. One area that I see all the time when it comes to sales and selling, and this will be the same in your niche, I think it's the same in pretty much every niche. If you're in a call centre, it's called call reluctance. If you're a solar printer business owner, then it's just called fear. It's often fear of rejection, fear of comparison. There's all kinds of issues come up. Imposter syndrome. What are some simple tips that you can maybe offer that would maybe you might stick on a laminated card and said, whenever I'm feeling this, do this? Yeah, well, I think there's a bit of software we use called Fathom Video. It's free software. It's fantastic. I've had the founder of my podcast as a guest and it tracks how much you talk versus how much your prospect talks, right? And it's great because you can see it goes green, red, depends on the mix. So the biggest one for me is ask a good question and then just be quiet. And then once you've asked a good question, then ask follow up questions to that question. So often it's that speed thing that we want to get to what we've got to say, so we quickly go through the research. And going back to that doctor analogy, good doctors don't do that, right? They look at all. Possibilities and they take time. And ultimately, someone else has got to identify that they've got a problem, then they've got to own that problem, right? And then you've got to help them with what's the best solution to solve that problem. But if you're the one doing all the talking, it's very rare that that's going to happen. So that's probably the biggest thing. So, with your clients, how often do they have any meaningful sales experience? So, official experience, not a lot. And I was lucky. I went from a rep to a director at Coca Cola, started in sales and I went into general management. But we had so much training, coke was branded the training we got. So sometimes when people come to me and say, I'm just really struggling with this, I don't know what to say. I don't know, the scripts help me out. I'm like, yeah, well, first thing, don't be hard on yourself. I've been doing this for 28 years now. I still find it hard. I'm still testing and trying to do things differently all the time. So most of my clients don't have that experience. So just ease up. We can easily help you. I can help you convince 24 years, or 28 years, I should say, into four sessions when we run one of our programmes one on one, and then that sort of takes the pressure off them. So I think that's the biggest thing, because not everyone has had sales background, but I know that every owner and you out there, you know that the number one way that you're going to increase your sales is through you being better at selling. I think a lot of people might have been on sales training courses. I've been on sales training courses, and a lot of the time, just because you spend a day in a classroom, it doesn't equate to experience. So I guess the question I want to ask is, when somebody comes to you, what does that typical journey look like for them? If they're coming in, being good at what they do, they're technically competent, but they just don't have the processes in place to connect with the people who need the values that they have and then have the sales conversations. What's your process for working with clients in order that you can close that gap for them? I'll take LinkedIn Outreach as an example. So we've got a programme called Fast Track, and in that there are five key steps. So the first one is to really identify your ideal client. So I call it an ICP ideal Client profile. And people say, yeah, I've done this before. I've done it with a marketing agency, I know this. And I'm like, okay, well, here's the way that I do it. Can you answer those questions? They're like, no. I'm like, okay, well, let's try this. And then the other thing is making sure that you've got evidence to back it up, because most people like, I'm fortunate that I'm helping who I was, but that doesn't mean that I'm the exact same as someone else that's in my industry, right? It can be very different. So I was lucky because I had so much sales experience, but some people have got none. So I can't just assume that everyone knows what I know as an example, and therefore I'd miss a lot of the pain points that the ideal clients having. So that's number one, too is then make sure your profile attracts those people. How often have you read someone's profile in two minutes and just thought, I've got no idea who you help and how you help them. It's just like a scratchy business card. So that's the second. The third is what's the sales funnel that you want. So like you said, my sales funnel is into a community that's free, and I've got a membership and I've got some other services, and then I've got one on one. So that's my sales funnel. But what it's going to be? Is it into a community? Is it going to be into a call? Like, what's that look like and what are your clients in that particular niche used to? And then the fourth one is, okay, well, what are the scripts then that's going to best attract them? And I gave you some examples before so you can just go back and to listen that section again around patent interrupters and the word open, etc for and then the fifth thing is, okay, you've got this all done, you've tested it manually, it's working. Then the fifth thing is how do we use some technology to expediate it, right? So there's certain tools that we use which help you as a sole opener or someone that doesn't have a big team be seeing everywhere. So your words, et cetera. But it just makes it easy. Now, a lot of people go, tools, automation, LinkedIn, I don't want my account banned, and I completely get that. But if you're just replicating what you do manually yourself and you're not doing any of those black hat techniques, I think there's a very low chance of you being suspended. And at the moment, I haven't had any of my clients that have been suspended for over a year now because LinkedIn reducing the outbound limit from two and a half thousand a week to 100. I don't know if it's two and a half thousand a week, but the numbers I think was two and a half thousand a month down to 100 a week. So 400 is really stopped a lot of the span. It was automated with some of these platforms. So I know you are very professionally competent. You're really good at what you do. And whenever I meet somebody who's really good at what they do, it's always interesting to find out a little bit about the areas of their business where they maybe don't feel so comfortable so I'm curious to know from you, where does Paul Higgins still experience anxiety, frustration, insecurity in his business? Because that's often as instructional and educational and I guess identifiable as the areas of competence and excellence. Someone once told me that a strength overplay can be a weakness. Right? And my strength overplayed is my ability to sell and my ability to do everything that I've spoken about. But that's all outbound, right? And that takes a lot of time, and not everyone's going to say yes and all of that. I'm sure you felt that yourself. So, for me, my biggest weakness is how to actually draw people to me. So, yes, the podcast helps, but is it drawing enough people to me? No. Does my website look exactly how I want it to? No. So the short answer is marketing. I really struggle with I know what I want to say, but sometimes I struggle to say it in a way that is attractive enough for my ideal clients. I think that's something that a lot of people can relate to. I think if we're all honest, nobody ever really comes across quite the way that they feel that they exist inside. And that's true in one to one encounters. And I think for a lot of people, it's especially the case when they go online that they never feel that they quite land the way that they would like to. So I think that's a really great observation. Yeah. And I think for me, I've got a great team. I've got five in the team. They're in Colombia and the Philippines and here in Australia, and they're brilliant. But sometimes with the marketing, I'm like, you go and get here's some people that I know are doing it well. Go and basically look at what they're doing, and then take our version of that. Right. Which is, okay, swiping is great, but it's really like, well, I actually need to think deeper. I need the strategy, and I need to do that. And that's just not what I do. So that's why I think, for me, I need someone to mentor and help me like I do for a lot of people with running their business across the business model, the sales, the operations, building the team, etc. I'm great at that. But the very pointy end of marketing, that's the part that I find the most frustrating. And to be honest, even though I was a marketing director at Coca Cola, I found it frustrating there as well. I think actually, to bring this right back to something you said at the beginning, is you need to diagnose before you prescribe. And I think a lot of people make the mistake of going and looking at the pills that other people appear to be taking and think, well, that must work. They try and recreate the marketing that they see other people generating without understanding what it was that originated it. What's the strategy behind it. They're recreating tactics rather than strategy. So I think you're absolutely right to identify what is it that's the right thing for me to be doing, need to be putting out and not simply try and do what everybody else seems to do. Because the truth is, when it comes to marketing, most people are flailing. They don't have a strategy. It's just noise for the sake of noise, and that doesn't serve anyone. So for the listener who's maybe thinking that Paul Higgins, I like the sound of that, LinkedIn outreach for me has got so much potential, if it's done well, how can people find out more about you? How can they connect with you? How would you like people to take action? Yeah, well, look, the easiest way is to go to Paul Higgins mentoring.com, and some people ask me if they got an E in it and the answer is no. So Higgins is all I's no ease So go to that. Obviously, the links Bob will have in the show notes as well. The other area is accelerate sales podcast. So go and have a listen to that, because, like I said, I'm very specific on who I target. But the lessons are for anyone in B to B sales. And the last one is, I do have a programme called Fast Track that I mentioned earlier. So you can either just go to the services page@pauligansmentoring.com or you can go straight to Paulhensmentoring. Comfasttrack. And I hope you will. So, Paul, I need to end with the question. It's the question I try and remember to ask everybody. I haven't forgotten for a long time now, but what's one thing you do now that you wish it started five years ago? In general life, I wish I had a golf coach earlier, but we'll put that aside five years ago. I wish I had been doing more video. And YouTube, I think Covert has just been brilliant because it's made it a lot more natural. But I used to always look at the camera and get petrified. Now the easiest thing I've done is set the camera up. So I've got an app which turns the camera on, all my lights on, and I can record it anytime and I just sit and record. And that's made it so much more accessible. So five years ago, I made it like it was shooting a home movie. Right. Whereas now it's a lot easier and I wish I had started my YouTube channel a lot easier. That's probably the biggest thing. Yeah. The golf I really can't empathise I'm not a big golf person, but I think if there's anything you enjoy, if you get a coach, you'll enjoy more. Absolutely. And with video, you are absolutely right. Video, for me, I think, is the number one life skill, because it opens the gate to creating connection in ways that nothing else really can. Paul, you have been an awesome guest. I've really enjoyed myself, I will never get tired of talking about sales and selling, because it changes lives. At the end of the day, you have something that people value. There's a need out there. And if you can find ways to bridge that gap between the need and the value, you can change life. At the end of the day, anything you're selling, it's about transformation. It's about change. It's about getting people closer to what they need and what they want. So thank you so much for your time. And, yeah, I can't wait to speak to you again. I really appreciate it, Bob, and thanks for you listening. And if you've got any questions, more than happy to answer, anything I can to help you on your journey.