Building a team that crafts your future, with Nick Smith

Welcome to Building your Leader Brand. This week on the show, Bob is speaking with nick Smith. And welcome back to Building your Leader Brand. My name is Bob Gentle, and every week, I speak with incredible people who share their secret to building, marketing, and monetizing their expertise and the mindset you need for your business to grow and thrive. If you're new to the show, then while you still have whatever device that is in your hand, take a second to subscribe. I will wait. I won't wait. Joining me today, I am very excited to welcome my friend, nick Smith, to the show. I'm having a panic attack. Is your second name Smith? My second name is Smith, yes. I'm not even going to cut this out. This happens to me every week. This is for the listener now. I speak to people and I know them really, really well. And the moment I hit record, I forget their name. It's outrageous. Nick, welcome to the show. Thank you. So I've I've been looking forward to having you on for a long time. We've known each other for a couple of years now, I think. Yes, at least. I see you talk about your work a lot. I know a lot of people in spaces adjacent to yours. I don't think there's anybody is really right on the crosshairs with you. But of all the people I've spoken with and heard speak about what they do, you do it with an enthusiasm and a passion and fluency that I find mesmerising and delightful. So I thought you'd be an awesome guest today. For the listener who's meeting you for the first time, can you maybe start just by telling us a little bit about who you are and what you do? Who am I? I suppose I am uniquely me. I'm nick, but I am known as a dad and a husband and a sailor and a walker and a GCEologist and an experiential leadership coach. And this wraps up a lot of who I am. The leadership coach, from the perspective of this conversation, is the main event. I think you and your passion for the outdoors is going to come into this. The GCA The GCE Index was the final catalyst that triggered this interview. For the listener, rather than me hamphistedly stamp all over describing what the GCE Index is, what's the GCE Index? And then we can talk about what happened when I did it. Gce Index is a way of helping people to see how they could improve the impact that they're going to make on the world around them based on what their proclivities are, which is an interesting word that basically just means what are you drawn to? What are the things that interest, excite, energise you based on the things that we do in business? And it helps you to hone in on that. And once you know where those areas are, then you can build a skill within that, which is what builds your impact. So to maybe preface that, it's a personality test, I think. Maybe that's the wrong phrase. The GC index isn't about personality and behaviour. It's more about what energises you and what you are drawn to. And so there is a distinction there. What I liked about it was, and we can get into how I did in the GC index in a minute, and I'm very happy to be very open with whatever came up. But you very generously gifted me the opportunity to do the assessment in order that you can generate the GC index matrix. A lot of these types of things, they tend to be quite cerebral, so they're difficult for the average person to really understand what they mean. And also, hold in your head as you move through your day. When you've got somebody I'm explaining it to you, you nod your head. When you read the report, Oh, my goodness, you've got me. But three days later, it's become very quickly meaningless. The GCE index is something that I reflect on every day. It's very easy for me to hold in my head and understand I need to understand. I need to make decisions and choose directions that work with me rather than against me. Is that something that you find people commonly reflect back to? Yes, because I think So often with profiles, you get the results and then it's hard. It's a real effort to not just understand, but actually to apply it and see how does this work for me in my situation. Whereas I think with the GC index, it's designed to be very simple to go, Oh, yeah, I understand that, and I can apply it tomorrow or even today. I'm assuming you've got my lab results in front of you there somewhere. Yes, I have just pulled them up. Rather than me describe what came out of it, you're probably more articulate at going through that. How would you express that result within the broader context of the GC Index? Okay, so the GC Index, it was designed to find folks who are game changers in that they can come up with original ideas that can kickstart a process and get people working. But it now identifies not just the game changers, but the people who can take the ideas and strategize them, but then also the folks who can take the strategy and build it, and the people who can take that build and perfect it, and in the middle sits the playmaker who can help all the different pieces of the team fit together and play nicely. And yes, some folks are maybe more imaginative, more about the ideas, the original ideas or the patterns and the strategy ideas. And that's where you sit as opposed to where I sit more in the action and the getting stuff done. And particularly for me, the perfecting and the polishing of ideas. I think what was fascinating for me is if I were to reflect on where I've experienced friction in the business and where I experience stress, it's in the areas where I score least. And if I reflect on where I find most joy in my business and where I've I most easily enter a flow state, it's in where I'm scoring most highly. And a lot of the time, if you are self-reflective and you are judging your own performance, it's very easy to say, I need to be working on my weaknesses. I think you do need to work on your weaknesses. You can't simply be complacent and focus on the things that you're really good at. However, I think I can see your lips moving. I know what you want to say. Go for it. I think, particularly in Britain, we're very good at seeing our deficiencies and focusing on them maybe overly much. And I would say, yeah, if you've got weaknesses that are getting in the way of you doing a good job, yeah, definitely. Look to eradicate those. But we've all got weaknesses that actually we can live with. And I would typically say, focus on your strengths, make them stronger, and build yourself that way. Because weaknesses that are not a problem, they're just a distraction. They're a diversion from actually building better things for us. And this is where it gets really interesting, because in my business, I'm at the stage where I perhaps need to start looking at building a team. And I've done this before, and I've done it terribly, because I think, like a lot of people, you like to surround yourself with people who are a bit like you. And that's just human nature nature, like attracts like. But when you're building a team and you want it to be a high-performing team, when you look at the GC index, that's a terrible idea. This is one of the things that has really delighted me with the result is I now know exactly where to focus because I don't want another strategist. I mean, yes, then maybe you need to understand it, to interpret it. But I do need somebody who can polish and finish things because if I don't have that, I just have a compounded problem. I'm interested to know from a leadership perspective, I can see how this works in, for example, a department. If you want to build an organ in your organisation, you want to build it from healthy components. In your experience, how do people implement the game changer index at that, not necessarily at a corporate level, but within an organisational element, a business unit, so to speak? So I think as a business unit, if all the major players, if they all get their results out of the GC index, then they start to see what people are most drawn to. And the things that people are drawn to are the things that they want to be spending most of their time doing, because that's what excites and energises them. The other stuff is the stuff that drains them. So, okay, are people people in the right... As Steven Covey puts it, Are they in the right seats on the bus? Okay, assuming that these are the right people to be on the bus, are we putting them in the right seats and helping the folks that are energised by the strategic stuff? Are we getting them involved at that stage of the process? Or are we just, well, they're there to make improvements, so we'll just leave them polishing. They'll just eventually be sucked to dry by that. And so using it to think, Okay, who are the best people to be involved at the start of a process where we need to generate lots of new ideas? Or actually, are we at the stage where we need to evaluate those ideas and see which ones work in our system, or do we now need some builders or whatever? And so I actually recognise, Okay, these are the people that we currently have. These are the things, these are the bits of the system where they would fit well because that's what excites them and energises them. Okay, maybe we need to help them build some extra skills within that, but that's where they would sit. But it can also help to recognise, oh, actually, we're all strategists or game changers. We never really get much done. We don't build enough. What we maybe need is someone that can take our ideas and put them into practise. And recognising that maybe It doesn't necessarily matter what the technical skill involved, because that can be added. But recognising what are people drawn to because that's who they are. Skill? Yeah, add those later. What's really interesting, I'm listening to you. A business, an organisation, is essentially a bundle of energy at the end of the day. As an organisational unit, it's an energy system. If that energy isn't being used efficiently, it's terrible for the organisation. It's a wasted resource. The GC index allows you to be putting the energy into the components that are fit for the job rather than components that are going to be under-optimized. You can shift these components around and optimise the system. It sounds like a very mechanistic way of looking at it. But I want to bring to that. What I like about it is if you look at leadership and organisational Theory. It's largely come out of the 1940s and 1950s, the very masculine command and control. But the GC index gives you the ability to bring into this quite a nurturing way of looking at things. It's a much more modern way of looking at leadership. It's not just perform your function, but it's how can we help you perform the right function in a way that's going to work with your energy and you're going to get more fulfilment out of life. Because ultimately, that's what's going to retain the best people if they're in the right roles. Yeah. So for me, my strategist score is so low as to be almost negligible. And I know that there have been times I've been in roles where I'm supposed to be strategic and I just want to curl up and die. And I'll do it because I have to and I'm being paid to do it, but I don't enjoy it. So I've not built particularly any skills and I don't do my best work. And it takes me longer. Actually, you move me to somewhere else where I can be, yeah, maybe the improvement thing. I worked as a quality auditor for a while within an IT context. I love that because it's about polishing things, making them better, and that suits me. And it does make you a very, very pragmatic coach, which I really enjoy, and perhaps because we're almost scoring opposites on the matrix, that's why I enjoy listening to you so much. Totally, yeah. So the GC index, I I would love anybody that's listening that felt that they might be able to enjoy this. I'm sure they can get in touch with you and find out more about that. Definitely. I'd love to chat to folks that are interested, and we can share a bit more and see how it can work for them. In order to finish off the GC index part, is there anything that you see on my report that is maybe worth talking about that we haven't talked about yet? I'm just thinking we've obviously talked through all this just one to one already, but I think, yes, the scores that you've got, yes, we are complementary because you are excited by the things that I am really put off by. And so we make a good pair. But I think, yes, you start to notice, oh, hang on, maybe this helps me to understand why these things always get pushed to the side. And so maybe for you, we talked about some of the detail work that, oh, hang on, I hate it. So can I outsource it? Because can I bring someone else into the team? And particularly when we're small teams, maybe this helps us to identify to, I, oh, yes, this is a lot. We all hate doing it. That's why it's not been done. Oh, but it's important becoming urgent if we look at Eisenhower, and so we need to find someone to do it. So I can't express to the listener, if you've done profiles before and you've been excited in the moment and it dissipated very quickly, the game changer index, the GC index, is different. It's a delight. It's super simple. It takes almost no time to do and will allow you a really rapid understanding of yourself. But also, if you have a team, your team will look like a jigsaw puzzle you can finally understand. I think that, for me, would be very exciting. What I'd like to talk about next is leaders and leadership. One of the things that I always struggled with, and you've spoken about more eloquently than anybody I've ever met, is difficult conversations. The very pragmatic part of being a leader, I think a lot of people struggle with. You have a particular flavour when it comes to leaders and leadership and coaching, that you do emphasise spending time outdoors with people within your coaching practise, not exclusively. But maybe if we were to begin with the framework that you developed to help people understand where they are on the leadership journey and how they might best approach that particular stage, because all leadership is not equal. No, this is true. I realised that actually leadership is a journey. It's not something that it's one and done. We start off maybe knowing nothing. And the longer we go, the more we can learn. And I think for me, learning has always been important. It's high on my list of values. But I would say for leaders, leaders need to be learners. And so picking up things as you go and learning by experience, because particularly leadership of people, people are weird and do the strangest of things. And so as you go through your journey, noticing these things and picking them up and learning. So for me, navigating your leadership journey is what it's all about. And I talk about starting off at base camp, actually recognising who are you as a leader? And maybe the GC index comes into that, or there are other tools that we can use to help people to recognise, Okay, this is who I am and what I bring to the table. This is the leader that I will be. Because it's not a cookie cutter job. It's I am who I am And I am a leader. It's not necessarily a job role, it's who I am. So starting off at base camp and then taking those first steps. Some people get promoted into leadership and get zero training or minimal. And some coaching is for people just taking those first steps on that journey to see, okay, these are some of the things I want to be looking at and focusing on. And not necessarily any problems, just things I don't yet know. And then we get into that rough terrain phase where we've been doing it maybe for a while, and there are things that we've avoided venturing into because, yeah, that's in the too difficult box. And difficult conversations tends to be the classic. And I would say my top tip for this that I talk about a lot is it's something that I've now been referred to from Ted Lasso is be curious. I don't know if you've seen that clip from Ted Lasso where they're playing darts. Brilliant. And it really sums it up, coming from that Walt Whitman quote, Be curious, not judgmental. And I think often when things are hard, we jump to the judgmental. We're the leader we know best. Actually, we maybe don't know all of it. And the danger is we jump in with statements, but actually be curious and ask more questions. And I think for any leader, ask more questions. And so, yeah, navigating some of the rougher terrain. It's about being curious, noticing what's happening. Yeah, thinking back to what you've experienced before as a leader, but as a follower. But bringing that into play and then noticing what's going on, asking good questions, asking lots of questions. Beyond that, we're maybe still not at the summit of our leadership journey, or maybe we're gathering other folks on this journey as we go. And so there's stuff maybe about teams in there as well and starting to think beyond that and maybe succession planning. But then we get to that point in our journey where we're on the summit. And this part of journey, it's often that we don't need to learn and grow. We don't need to deal with difficult situations. Sometimes we just need a companion on that journey to talk to. And some of that level of coaching is simply being there on the walk, physically or metaphorically, to listen. And I often reference a session that I well remember where we were actually together walking and I started off with, Yeah, so how's it going? And about an hour later, we got back to our cars, and that was about all I'd said, because they just needed to unload, talk to someone that understood but wasn't involved. Because leadership can sometimes be lonely. Once you're on that summit on your own, it's a lonely place to be. I think one of the reasons I would feel so confident putting you in front of people who are really in summit space is the pragmatism. I think a lot of people at that level have a lot of people nodding their heads, and that, I think, makes it very lonely. I think a lot of coaches have a habit of meeting them in that very cerebral space where they are the strategists. I think at that level, they don't need more of themselves. They need that counterpoint, which I think, for me, is very refreshing. I think for me, sometimes coaching is about asking the disconfirming questions. Because, yeah, you're right. A leader says something and the team goes, Oh, yes, that's a good idea, as they shake their heads. And so we end up with groupthink and everyone follows what might actually be the wrong path. Whereas I'm quite happy to say, Oh, so what makes you so sure that this is not wrong? So one of the things, I think, again, that I've heard you talk about quite often is communication inside of an organisation, that a poorly performing organisation is probably an organisation that's poorly communicating. And I look at the communications and the relationships with an organisation as the connective tissue in a body. If it's not working, it's either going to injure itself or it's not going to be able to perform when it needs to. It's just going to survive. What are the number one strategies that you would go to when a company is experiencing this sluggish status? Nothing really seems to be moving. People have great ideas, but nothing ever seems to get off the ground. A one-size-fits-all answer probably doesn't exist. I know, but it was a picture that popped into my head and I thought, That will make a good question for nick. Yeah, great. Cheers. I think for me, it's about finding out what are the symptoms that people are recognising. Yet they can see that, Okay, things We're maybe sluggish and we're not getting stuff done. But what are people thinking about that? What are people saying about that? What do people appear to be feeling? And where does that come from? And it could be that it's down to the people who are doing the leading. And yeah, maybe the way they're communicating, it could be that they're not communicating clearly enough and people don't actually know what to do. So they're just bumbling along in the background, filling time. Or it could be that they don't agree with what they're being told to do, but they've not had any chance to express that. And that lack of expression then builds resentment. Or maybe they have expressed things and they've just been shut down. And often it comes down to, Okay, where are the people at? It might be that there's a skill set thing, but often it's, Where are the people at? And what has maybe caused them to be sluggish? Because if it's the organisation, the organisation is made up of people. And yes, so what's going on for them? I think you answered the question, and it was an unfair question. So for the listener, do not judge nick on the answer to that question. But It comes down to diagnostics. You need to understand what is happening, and that's exactly where you went. So for nick Smith, what does a dream client look like? A dream client is, firstly, someone who wants to get better at this whole leadership game. They want to keep progressing on their journey and reaching that summit, because there are a lot of leaders who are just content with getting by. They're not applying for me. So someone who is keen to develop themselves and actually is self-aware enough to know already some of where they want to develop. And I suppose one of my niche things is that I've come from an engineering and IT background, and I can speak tech as well as being able to speak the whole coaching side of people. And so people who are technically brilliant, but maybe recognise that their leadership of people is the thing that they're lacking in. They're great folks for me to talk to. But yeah, people who want to be more confident because they are more competent in their leadership of people are the folks I want to be engaging with. I think that's very nicely put. I think people need to be willing to understand that if their team or their organisation isn't performing that well, you can't point the finger at them. You have to have the finger pointing at you as well. There is no organisational growth without personal growth. Yes. One of the great books that everyone should read is Surrounded by Idiots, by Thomas Erichson. And just that concept that it's everyone else that's the problem. Oh, hang on. But I think often I find leaders who talk about difficult people. People are not difficult per se, but they're maybe presenting situations that are difficult for me to deal with and just recognising that it's not them. I have a part to play in this as well. It takes two to tangle, and the leader is one of those two. So let's move on to part two of podcast, the three things, stage Bob's three amplifiers. I did check because often I forget to check if guests are prepared for this, and I know you are. So thing number one, amplifier number one, what have you got for us? These are three things that people can just go away and take action on, a book to read, a framework, a podcast. People should go and listen to this. There are other podcasts or absolutely anything. Thing number one. Okay. I was thinking about this beforehand, and actually, it's three things that I've already mentioned, maybe because I see them as being important, and so I talk about them a lot. But I think, first off, recognising people's differences. I think as much as leadership is seeing what's common to people, often we have some managerial responsibility as well, and recognising however we do it, the GC index is one way, but seeing how people are different and using that to best advantage. And Marcus Buck Adam talks about this a lot. What is unique to people? And make use of that. But actually, even in the first instance, just not thinking that everyone is like me. Because if we try and lead, if it was a team of me, Clones, It's a nightmare. But if I assume that everyone is like me, I won't be leading those people. I'll just be leading me. So yeah, how are people different? And then, yeah, I talked about asking more questions and being curious and leaders are learners, learning for themselves about new leadership ideas, but learning about what's going on and what has happened in that event and asking questions to find out more. And that, by My necessity means I'll ask questions and keep my mouth shut, and it focuses you on listening more. But in terms of... I'm very much... I used to say, Leaders are readers, but I recognise now that lots of people don't read books books nearly as much. But there's all sorts of books that I realise that I come back to often. And I've got a whole list in front of me. And if I had to pick one, I don't know quite where I would go. I'll give you three. Three books. I can have three? Okay. In which case I would talk about the jelly effect by Andy Bounds. It's all about how we communicate with people and the idea that if we say lots and lots of stuff, throwing lots and lots of bits of jelly at a wall, some of it will stick. Well, why not be more focused and actually communicate in ways that are more effective? So that'd be one. I would probably reference Daniel Pink. One of his books is called Drive: The Surprising Truth of What Motivates People. And it's relatively easy read, but it just helps us to think motivation beyond Maslow's hierarchy and stuff like that. And then, yeah, the other one I might pick is Amy Edmondson talking about teaming. I suppose that's the first place I encountered the concept of psychological safety and the whole safe to fail idea, and creating a culture where people feel like they can take some risks and experiment and push the boundaries a bit, knowing that their leader will support them in that. Not people that are deliberately going out to fail and being obstructive, but trying things and not just sticking to the old, tested ways. Because, hey, we now live in a world where things move so quickly that yesterday's ways won't be valid next month or even next week. So, yeah, teaming is probably the third one that I would choose. These are all so you. They're excellent choices. I think the whole difference thing is so important that you can't build a high-performing team without lots of different ingredients. And it's so tempting when you are in a position of leadership, you get to choose who you surround yourself with, that you don't do what human nature was designed to do, which is surround yourself with people that are just like you. That's a terrible idea. The questions, again, it's fascinating. You think, if I ask questions, people will give me the answers I want to hear. You need to be prepared for the answers you don't want to hear and what they mean. Yeah. I think Often, if we make statements, we feel in control. If we ask questions, you're right, we don't know what answers we will get. And some of them will be things that we then struggle to deal with. It's like your questions after any presentation. Oh, what might they ask me? And it puts the fear in folks. But actually, it gives people the chance to say the things that are important for them. And it's a huge insight into who they are. That's a really fascinating observation Because I've watched lots of people take questions after a presentation. And now you mention it, that is the part that gives people the most fear. But it's also consistently the point at which people light up. That's a really interesting observation. I think, particularly, if we are presenting material, however well we know the audience, we're still guessing at what they want to know. But questions from an audience tell you exactly what they want to know, and you can speak directly to them and feed them what it is that they are desperate for. So yeah, there have been times where I have done a minimal presentation and then opened it up to questions. I've given them the bare bones and then, okay, because your questions are far more important to me than my ideas of what I think you should know. You've just given me an outstanding idea. I think it's an outstanding idea. Your three book choices are excellent topics, and I'm so excited. I haven't read any of Okay. And I'm going to take care of that. I will see you tomorrow. I can bring them and lend them to you tomorrow. I may actually listen to those as audiobooks because like all the people you were talking about. I'm finding it harder and harder to find the time to read business books. And that's also full disclosure because I have a terrible science fiction habit, and that takes up my actual reading time. If anybody has suggestions for science fiction books, you message me on literally any platform. Nick, this has been so much fun. We are going to do this again. One of the things I like about having people on a podcast is it breaks the ice and it means it's much easier to do the proper podcast interview another time. So we'll go much deeper next time. For listeners who are thinking, I need a bit of nick Smith in my life, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you? And if people want, for for example, to take action on the Game Changer Index or any other resources you've got. The easiest, most memorable way to find me is probably on LinkedIn, because if you go for nick Smith, leadership coach, then I come up. And on there you will find things like the leadership progress checker. How far have you got through navigating your leadership journey? So you can get that as download from my LinkedIn page. So that's probably your first port of call. And And obviously, once you find me on there, you can message me through there and say, Yeah, the game changer index sounds interesting. I want to know more. And you will also get a delightful surprise in that if you download Nick's Progress checker. Roadmap. Yes. It is the most delightfully hand-drawn thing you will ever see. Almost every person I speak to who develops a framework will hire a designer, they'll do it in Canva. Nix is hand-drawn, and I thought you'd paid somebody to do it, but you didn't. It's just astonishing. Top marks for that. Thank you very much. Nix, this has been a lot of fun, but that does bring us to the end of another episode. If you did enjoy this interview, then you will love the Personal Brand business roadmap. Everything you need to start, scale, or fix your expert business. Again, if you did enjoy this show, then do your duty and leave a five-star review wherever you listen to podcast. That's five like the fingers on your hand. Count them if you need to. Thanks at home for listening or watching. If I do put this on YouTube, and nick, thank you for your time. It's been awesome.