The Aikido of Personal Branding, with Matt Johnson

Welcome to Amplify the Personal Brand Entrepreneur Show today. On the show, Bob is speaking with Matt Johnson in order to create ideal clients for yourself. I know of no but no better way to do it than podcasting. And so that's what the ROI is. The ROI is taking a group of people that stumble on to your podcast through various means, and they go, oh, this is interesting. I resonate with some of what he's saying, but I don't agree with at all. And over the course of three months, six months, twelve months, whatever of them listening, they come to agree with and see the way the world that that you see it. They see the world according to your point of view. And all of a sudden you become not just a choice in a sea of options. You become the only choice for them for the thing that you sell, because you're the only one they resonate with. You're the only one that sees the world that with they do you're the one the only one that shifted their perspective on the world. That's the power of a podcast. To create ROI. You can literally take the same people that might dismiss you, and you can turn them into ideal clients over time by the content they put out. And welcome back to Amplify The Personal Brand Entrepreneur Show. My name is Pop Gentle. And every week I'm joined by amazing people who share what makes their business work. If you're new to the show, take a second not to subscribe. And whichever player you listen to. And if you are listening on Apple podcasts, make sure you click the new follow option in the top. Right that way you will actually get the new episodes before I go into introducing this week's guest. This is just another quick reminder. After nearly 200 these interviews, I've learned a thing or two about what makes a business work online. And it turns out success does leave clues. So I want to give you the map. Just head over to Amplify Me agency for Roadmap. Grab your copy of my Personal Brand Business Roadmap. Everything you need to start, scale or just fix your personal brand business is yours for free as a gift for me. So this week, I think the word of the day is going to be leveraged and leverage in so many different ways. This week, my guest is entrepreneur and author of Micro Famous become famously influential to the right people. Matt Johnson, Matt, welcome to the show. Thanks so much, Bob. It's an honour to be here excited for the conversation. So for those that haven't read Micro Famous, I think a quick synopsis from you is probably in order. And I think what I would probably ask you is if you met someone at a party and you were telling them about your book, how would you explain it? Where would you start? Honestly, at this point, I would say that I accidentally built the perfect marketing system for Introverts, and the book kind of lays out what that is. I didn't know it at the time. I wrote the book for my clients, coaches, consultants, thought, leaders, speaker, author types. And I was sharing what I had learned from working with them since 2015 and helping to build their coaching consulting businesses. And it wasn't until after the book really and everything was laid out that a client pointed out to me that that's essentially what I have done and that I just needed to be, you know, tell people straight up like, hey, this is what it is, essentially built this marketing system that works really well for Introverts or for anyone. That's more of like, I have a lot of clients that I would consider the digital introverts they're extroverted in life. They like people, but that doesn't mean they want to be on social media all the time, which is a lot of why they came to me to produce and launch their podcast, right? Because they're not interested in just building their following on Instagram selfies. So that's how we describe it. Now, when you describe the perfect marketing system for Introverts, you're not joking. I look back my journey and we were speaking about this a minute ago before we start recording. I probably should have recorded a lot of that about how wonderful it would be if the world just came and found you because you were good at something. It just doesn't work. And something that really bugs me in our industry. We call the bro marketers, the Lamborghini Crew. Yeah. People who rent big villas and take pictures of themselves in that Villa, pretending to be really successful in the hope that that's going to be a self fulfilling prophecy. There are people in the world who are awesome. I have this spark of genius that the world really needs to know about, but it never happens because the right people don't know about it. And those are people who should necessarily be trying to emulate the pro marketers. But they need a way to make it work. And I think the roadmap that you lay out in Micro Famous is a really good example of that. So for anybody sitting there listening, what is the map? What is that path? How would you describe it to people? What actually is the content within Micro Famous addresses that. So I would say there's four steps and revolves around podcasting. And I'll give you just the piece of that first because some people would look at that and go, well, how can how can podcasting be a natural fit for Introverts? That's a very extroverted thing to do, which is funny, because I actually never thought of it like that. I understand where people can see that. But as you know, introverts really enjoy deep one on one conversations. That's one of my favourite things in the world. And on top of that, I love the battle ground of ideas. I love trading ideas and fighting over my ideas and discussing my ideas. So podcasting was a great fit for that. You know, I eat. I don't even think of podcasting as an extroverted thing. So I kind of stumbled into this world and realised that the path that I had gone on myself and the things that I had done for my clients ended up being this roadmap. So they were get interviewed on podcasts, launch your own podcast, pull chunks out of those for social media rather than creating everything from scratch and then step for will be like turning that into and enhancing your sales system, your sales follow up with that content, right? From both you being interviewed and interviewing others. So those things combined, like my personal experience was I essentially ran a split test and podcasting completely by accident, right? I launched two shows in the same space, which is real estate. One built a very general, mainstream audience. The other built a very niche, valuable, influential audience. And that was the one that was way easier to monetize. So I've got a podcast that has I mean, we pass 2 million downloads at some point, I think early next year. It's great. It's awesome. It makes all the ten top ten top 15 list of podcast in that space. It got us a lot of speaking engagements, and we sold some info products. We did some coaching at the other podcast gets about 10,000 downloads a month in a market that's only about 15,000 people, which is insane. And that podcast very quickly built a multiple six figure coach and consulting business behind the scenes for my partner client at the time, a good friend of mine, Jeff Cone, and I was looking at that go, it just broke my brain. Like, how is it possible with the podcast that has a fraction of the downloads of the other one was way easier to monetize way faster to monetize. So I really started to delve into, well, what was different about the audience? What was different about the content that we were sharing? What was different about the things we are doing to promote it, all of those different things and all of the things that I found out along the way of that journey of reverse engineering that were the things that ended up in the micro famous book. So that's the short story of Kind of the Underground, like the underlying story behind the book. I think a lot of people are probably listening, and they're going to be in one of three camps. They're going to be, oh, my God. I could never do a podcast camp or they'll be thinking, okay, I could handle being a guest or they will be there's probably many comps er. Actually, I guess what I'm thinking is there will be some people who are thinking this is just too much for me to consider. There will be some people who are thinking I could imagine being a guest, but I couldn't imagine being a host. And there'll be others who are thinking I can imagine being a host, but how can I turn the cent of money? How do I move people from audience into customer? So let's deal with the last group of first if they can see. Okay, I could imagine doing it as an introvert or as an extrovert. Doesn't matter, really. I can see a world in which I could run a podcast. I would enjoy that. But Where's the ROI? How do you explain the potential ROI? They haven't done the extrapolation. I would start by asking a question, what form of marketing allows people to spend more than a couple of minutes with you? And that question pretty quickly narrows it down. Eliminates virtually all of social media. It eliminates a lot of YouTube videos. Honestly, you know, and then you very quickly get to podcasting. So the average podcast listener, you know this, you know, 80% of podcast listeners listen to about 80% of an episode. So once they hit play, odds are they're finishing most or all of your episode. There is no other form of marketing on the planet where people spend as much time with you as on a podcast. You can't get that through Facebook ads. You can't get that through he direct mail. You can't get it through YouTube. You can get it. The only thing that comes close is long form content on YouTube. If your audience wants it and YouTube is willing to put it in front of people. I did really well with long form content on YouTube years ago for the real estate side. But within a year, our podcast audience had eclipsed that three to one. So YouTube is great for initial growth and exposure. But once people knew about us and the podcast took off because people wanted to spend time with us. And so when you think about the ROI, this is where it's at. If you're selling something that is a very simple, direct straight line from the customer wants it. They need it right now to I offer it, and they already know what it is. And the only question is, does the customer know who you are? Run ads, right? That those could be bus benches, radio, pick, Google paper, click whatever. But if you have a very simple direct straight line and you have something the customer already knows they want, and they just want to know who they want to buy it from. And they want to buy from somebody to know, like and trust, just run ads and do that. I operate in the area. And so do you, Bob, where we want clients of a certain type that agree with us on certain things that are willing to take action on our advice, because at the end of the day, we don't make an impact on the world to people that don't take our advice, and that is a completely different equation. That's a completely different challenge for marketing than selling something that people know what it is to people that already know that they want it. So we're not talking about the people that are selling real estate, which I love. But real estate agents don't need to start podcast. People that sell plumbing, people that sell landscaping. They don't necessarily need to start a podcast. You're better off running ads. But if you have to convert people to a belief system, if you have to change hearts and minds in order to create ideal clients for yourself, I know of no better way to do it than podcasting. And so that's what the ROI is. The ROI is taking a group of people that stumble on to your podcast through various means, and they go, oh, this is interesting. I resonate with some of what he's saying, but I don't agree with it all. And over the course of three months, six months, twelve months, whatever of them listening, they come to agree with and see the way the world that you see it, they see the world according to your point of view. And all of a sudden, you become not just a choice in the sea of options. You become the only choice for them for the thing that you sell, because you're the only one they resonate with. You're the only one that sees the world the way that they do. You're the only one that shifted their perspective on the world. That's the power of a podcast to create ROI. You can literally take the same people that might dismiss you, and you can turn them into ideal clients over time by the content that you put out. That's what I have to say that I think that's a very eloquent description, and I'm hoping people are listening. They can. Yeah, I can see why you would want some of that. It makes so much sense. I think a lot of people they look at guessing first guessing is great as a foot in the door into the medium. But it's a little bit like The Travelling Hobo. You never really develop an audience anywhere. Does anyone remember the Travelling Hobos like it? It's a quaint thing from the thirties. It's a TV show from the Eighties. Little dog used to travel around so that we did not get that. I guess I missed that whole thing. Everybody go to look up, go on YouTube. It's so cute, but you never really develop a long term relationship with the audience you're speaking to. It's a great way of building some authority and some visibility. And I think if you're new to podcasting, it can be a great way in. But, yeah, you don't develop this long term relationship with an audience in the same way. No, you don't. But it does serve a very, very, very key roll in, like this whole ecosystem that we're in nowadays online here's what it does. It's your very soft, very authentic way of interrupting people going about their daily lives and putting yourself in front of them. And that, like, addresses the core challenge for introverts when it comes online marketing. The reason that introverts have so much trouble with online marketing is we don't like to interrupt, and we don't like to do things that feel inauthentic to us. So us the old joke about I don't like social media because I'm not interested in sharing what I have for breakfast this morning. It's both hilarious and true, but it's evidence of why introverts struggle because we feel like that's an intrusion in other people's lives for us to share something so inconsequential. Extroverts. Like, I have a right to share this. And you should absolutely be interested in what I had for breakfast this morning. Like, extroverts. I know a bunch of them, and they're all like that they don't care, and they think they have every right and should want to know what they have for breakfast. So when it comes to introverts, like, where we struggle is, look, you can create a lot of different things, a lot of different types of marketing assets or platforms that will nurture people who already know who you are. And we talked about that when it comes to podcast. And you could also do it through YouTube, or you could do it through automated email sequences. In Andre Chapron is a legend at that. I love his stuff. Right? Classic introvert. The question is, how do you get people into the email list? Right. So once you have something that nurtures people, that's awesome. But if nobody knows it exists, it's like having an Apple store in the middle of a field. It can be amazing inside. But if there's no highway that runs past the store, nobody's coming in. So we're introverts struggle. Is it's like we build this, we build an amazing business, an amazing product. And maybe we even build an amazing marketing platform that if people knew it existed, would create customers for us. But people don't know it exists. And that's what we have to do is we have to go out and, you know, like, extroverts just to carry that analogy further, extroverts are the ones on the side of the road with the spending sign, right? It's very direct. It's in your face. Right? Like, hey, I sell this. Come cheque it out. It's like that makes introverts super uncomfortable. So I think what introverts have to do is we have to engineer a way to get somebody to build a road right past our Apple store, if that makes sense. And to me, that's what collaborations are. That's what co marketing is. Affiliate marketing and podcasting is like, the lowest hanging fruit. The easiest form of that is of affiliate marketing is to go on somebody's show because they've already an audience they already have. That audience is permission to communicate with them you're not interrupting somebody in an authentic way. You're actually kind of interrupting somebody in the course of doing something they are already enjoying doing anyway. So like, I get to reach your audience, an audience I would never know otherwise, but it doesn't feel like I'm interrupting them. I'm not popping them up, you know, popping up in front of them with a sign spinning saying, hey, look at me. We're just having a pleasant conversation, but effectively, I'm reaching people that don't know who I am. And then I can say, hey, come over and cheque out the micro famous podcast because it's all about marketing for introverts, specifically for coaches, consultants and speaker, author types. And anybody in the audience is going, oh, that's me. I should go cheque that out. I didn't have to put an ad in front of them. I didn't have to do a sign spinning thing. I didn't have to put a selfie on Instagram. And to me, for introverts like that's, where that fits in, like podcasting guesting is just the easiest form of a bigger concept, which is collaborative co marketing. I love that. And I had the image of a snowball rolling down a Hill that every time you show up in somebody's audience, a small portion of that will travel with you. But the key component is momentum and some kind of direction of travel. All of that will work. But if you don't have your own platform to bring people home to what was it for? And that really is the benefit of actually having your own podcast is like you meet somebody who generate amazing content, but they have no product is kind of pointless. It's true. That's more common than you would think. No, no, no, no. Something I would be interested discuss with you is impostor syndrome, because I think this is something that I'm going to be crude and generalised, badly extroverts don't struggle with to the same extent. Maybe introverts allow themselves to almost use it as an excuse more often. But what's been your experience of impostor syndrome? Where has it caused you problems? And I guess what strategies have you developed to maybe help you move past it? Okay. Well, I came across this probably years after I needed it. I jumped in. The short answer is I jumped in and I did it, and I did it because I knew I was going to have fun conversations. And I like conversations about ideas. So the bottom line is I jumped in and did it. And then I was super nervous up front, but I just ploughed through it. And then a year later, you look up and you realise you're not nervous anymore. And it just kind of happens gradually. A couple of years after that, I discovered the book The Business of Expertise by David Baker. Do you know that one? I do know it's amazing. And he points out something because he's also an introvert. And I don't think he put it in these terms. But I know what's going on. The dynamic of that because he's introverted. And you just pointed out that, look, there's a small section of the world, maybe two to 5% that has irrationale, like, irrational levels of self confidence near delusional. They just believe in themselves to the point that whatever they do they believe is going to work out great. That's 5% of the world, maybe the rest of us, our confidence comes from competence, the feeling that we're good at something. So the question is, how do you get that kind of confidence as quickly as possible? And here's where I'll inject more of my own opinion. You know, if you read books like Psycho Cybernetics or The Power of Positive Thinking, it comes down to their answer to that would be, well, just visualise being confident. I don't think that stuff works. It didn't work for me. I know there's a lot of people that I would listen to that nod their head long, like, yeah, visualising being confident, visualising the podcast episode going, well, that makes no difference to me. Here's what helped me. Small, incremental, permanent changes. That's what built my confidence. And so, for example, if you don't consider yourself someone that works out, set the challenge of doing ten push ups a day every day for 30 days. At the end of that, 30 days, all of a sudden, you're not a person who doesn't work out. You're actually a person who works out every day, and that you might think that, well, that's just 30 days. Like, no, that has a deep identity level transformation potential. Like I did that I always considered by somebody that somebody that hated working out until I started working with a mentor a few years ago, and he was big on streaks. So he just said, like, hey, what if you put it, like, a workout streak together? The next thing you know, I went six months of working out every single day in one form or another. You know, one day I'd be lifting weights the next day be yoga and mobility. Stretching is not like I was in the gym sweating my butt off every day. But I was doing something physical exercise, you know, 15, 2030 minutes a day every day for, like, 183 straight days until I got sick or something. I Brofi Street. That changed my perception of myself as a human being. And it gave me the confidence to go, oh, now I can do something. And now I can try things with my diet and exercise that I would have never had the confidence to try six months ago because all of a sudden now I'm not that guy who hates exercising. I'm actually the guy that exercises every day. So to me, small, permanent changes that change your perception of yourself are way more effective at building confidence than anything else. So, for example, if you take this into the marketing room. I'm not a person who can do live video. Great. Do a live video on Facebook to nobody but yourself like you can literally change the settings and Facebook so that nobody sees it. But you and go do a live video every day for 30 days that nobody else sees. At the end of those 30 days, you've taken no social risk. But you're the person who did a Facebook live every day for 30 days. What are the odds that after 30 days, you're never going to want to do one again because you're still so uncomfortable doing it that you'll never, ever do it? I'd say the odds are pretty low. The odds are high. They're going to go a man. I'm putting a lot of work into this. I should probably turn these on public and let some people see these because now they're getting good like that's just the way we work as human beings. So I think if you small, permanent changes our way. I think way more effective in building confidence, especially for introverts, because part of the reason where introverts is we have what you might say is like a stronger internal critic running in our heads. That's the one that speaks up and says, hey, you can't go talk to that group of people. They'll just ignore you like that inner critic is loud, small, permanent changes will help to settle down that inner critic way more than big temporary changes or trying to visualise your way to success. That's and that's just my opinion. As you might know, this show is supported by our sponsor Agorapulse. Now you know how hard it is to juggle all the things in your business, the accounts, the meetings, the never ending in box. And that's why I teamed up with Agorapulse to give you more than 5 hours back a week when it comes to managing your social media marketing. No complicated Excel Doc emails or millions of open times. Simply manage all your social media channels in one place. Go to Amplify me agency Agorapulse to score two months for free on me. Now all you have to do is figure out how you want to spend those spare 5 hours. I think you're absolutely right. It's a process of normalisation or desensitisation or assimilation over a period of time. I resonate very strongly with that, because if that weren't true, we wouldn't be having this conversation and I wouldn't be a podcaster. It's exposure therapy. Yeah, but it's quite extraordinary what you can achieve with that. I think there's another interesting thing for me, which is impostor syndrome, in particular. I kind of changed around that now when I think about or when I experience impostor syndrome and the experience of being thinking, somebody's going to bust me or somebody's going to say, Bob, you really don't know what you're talking about or you're a bit of a fraud. I look at that now as a sign that I'm probably doing the right thing. I'm in the right place, because if I'm not experiencing that, then I'm not stretching my comfort zone. And if I'm not doing that, I'm not growing. So that kind of. It brings me to the point where I'm curious to know now, with everything you've accomplished with you've written the book, you cruising in many respects of your business, what triggers imposter syndrome? And you know what parts of your business are you scared about? I would say the fact that, like, if Gary Vee caught wind of me and what I said and called me out publicly, that would be really interesting, because from his perspective, I might be a failure. I run a lifestyle business. I live eight blocks from the beach. I'm single. I have no kids. I live the perfect life for me, but it's not the perfect life for him, right? I'm not building a 600 million dollar media agency. So what he does works for what his goals are, and he doesn't respect other people that don't have those same, I would say, life altering, world changing, impact level goals. My goals are to impact people through the books that I write, the ideas that I spread and the podcast that my agency produces that also do those same things because all of my clients are author speaker types. So I'm going to have an exponential impact not only through things that I do, but through the things that I enable other people to do. And I take a lot of fulfilment from that. But I'm okay if no more than 10,000 people ever really know who Matt Johnson and Micro famous is, I don't need the maximum number of eyeballs on my content that's Gary vs. Entire definition of success. Now I'm settled in it within myself that I have a reason that I've built my business that way. But if he called me out publicly and you go like, hey, how many clients did you take on last month? And I'd be like, Well, too, because, you know, that's how many ideal clients came to me last month, and I'm not taking more than that anyway, because I don't want to work an additional more than 2 hours a week to get them started. Well, why is that? Well, it's because I'm still working on the strategy with my clients. Well, why haven't you hand that off yet? Because I like it. It's my purpose. Like, I enjoy the strategic conversation, so I grow the business bigger and faster than I have. Absolutely. But I have to be a different person. That's one of the things I worked on. I mentioned my mentor to behind the scenes that I was working on. That a couple of years ago. That's the decision that I came to within myself. But if I got called out publicly, other people would go, oh, he just runs a lifestyle business, and that's true. But I run a lifestyle business because I'm introverted, and I have other pursuits in life that I want to do. So I have a reason for what I do. But I guarantee if Gary caught wind of what I was saying, that's the first thing he goes, don't listen to that guy. He does know what he's talking about. He doesn't take on enough clients to really matter. It's like maybe. And from his perspective, he'd be right because I don't have the same goals he has. I think he would be wrong in that situation. And I think I know enough about Gary that I think you would probably respect what you're doing. I think if somebody claims to want to big business and doesn't do the hustle, that's when he gets pick so clear about what they want, then what's right for you, what's right for you. And I think knowing that is the hard part. Yeah, that's true. I think I would like to look at the authority element of podcasting because I think that's something that's hugely underestimated when you start showing up in other people's audiences, there's a journey that begins. And if you've never met somebody famous or even modestly or micro famous to you, it's a very strange experience where you know them intimately. I remember I met, told Herman, and I knew so much about him. I knew what his kids did for fun. I knew where they went for their holiday. I knew what he was working on. I knew what his apartment looked like, the whole thing because I'm into what he does. He had no idea who I was. And it is a very strange experience now taught her. And you may not have heard of him. He's micro famous and kind of a big way. But that power of social relationship has a powerful effect. And I think it's probably an effect you're very familiar with. So what's your perspective on the authority that you can build and how that can impact your business? Well, I kind of knew what to expect because I was a podcast super consumer before I started a podcast agency. So I was on the listening, and I remember listening to Adam Carolla talk about that exact thing. That the power of podcasting and radio, just that audio only format. There's something about it that people develop such a deep relationship with you because you're in their ear for hours and hours. And he talked about how surreal that was to meet people or have people call in where they knew all of your inside joke. You have no idea who these people are. They know all of your inside jokes and all those things that you mentioned. So I knew a little bit of what of what to expect. I did not expect that it would happen so quickly. I mean, I went from starting the podcast back in the day, the first one to speaking on stage to a packed out room across the country where I didn't think we had any fans in 18 months. And then I've had people come up at events and go and deliver me the inside jokes from my own show. It is weird. It is surreal, but I love it. It's fantastic for an introvert. It's the best thing in the world to like to walk into an event and like, there's going to be people here that just know who I am and they're going to come up to me. We talk about the world coming to you online. That doesn't necessarily work. But if you have built an online platform when you do walk into an event and it's of your people in your industry, that actually does happen. And that's one of the best parts of having a podcast as an introvert. I don't even worry about showing up at industry events anymore. I walk in. And either I know that once we get to talking, he'll know who I am, or we'll have a bunch of mutual friends, or I'll just walk in and people will come up to me and go, oh, my God, I love your show. And you interviewed so and so. And that was great. And all this stuff as an introvert is perfect. It's the most amazing thing ever. And my clients are the same way. And so the authority is really interesting because I'll give you a kind of visceral example. So I started working with the second guy that I lunched, a podcast with in the real estate space. Before I met him, he was offering, like, a workshop in his office, you know, hey, throw me a couple grand and you can come into my office. I'll give you all my systems and tools and spreadsheets for how I built this multi million dollar business and run it one day a week. Great. Lots of hand holding, lots of messages, lots of phone calls, you know, because it was all relationship based for people to come in, you know, handful of people here and there did it, and he made some money. Great. A year and a half in to running the podcast. He was sending people to a website where they signed up, plunk down their credit card for three grand because he raised the price, bought their plane tickets, got on a plane, showed up in Omaha, Nebraska, his office, and he'd have packed out workshops every month with 810, twelve people that paid three grand to be there. And he had no idea who they were. They didn't talk to anybody, or they talked to, like, an executive assistant just on a couple of questions about plane flights. That's the difference between having authority and not. You can sell something that takes lots and lots of hand holding and lots of relationship and lots of time to sell. And you can flip it on its head to where they spend all the time with you on your podcast. And then when they're ready to pull the trigger, they just go, Yep, I'm ready. Sign me up. Let me get on the plane, come to you, and you have no idea who they are and all that happened with you without you being, like, actually involved other than hosting your podcast. So to me that I would call that influence, which authority is a component of it. But that's when your level of influence hits that stage, you know, you're doing something right, and that doesn't come without the combination of authority, visibility and relationships is like three components that make up that level of influence. But that's what I like. If I'm in the online world vast the level of influence I want to get to, like, real, enduring influence in the space. And I think this really was the last place that I wanted to go. I mean, that sounds terrible. The last place? No, this was where I wanted to conclude things was if we look at how most people approach social media or any kind of content marketing there on a hamster wheel all the time just to achieve a basic level of attention. And one of the things that I saw in micro famous was that attention is not influenced. Attention with influence is a game changer. And I think what you describe in events is one thing. But when you know that when your content lands and I know nobody wants to be constantly on the social media hamster wheel. But a basic foundational level of social media is a great way of getting attention. But if that attention can also influence people and cut through and sort of be a different category of content because of who you are, what you know that you are leading with your thought and not just with your clambering for attention. It's a very different space to be. I mean, think about the example in the book that I think resonates a lot of people is the difference between Simon Cynic and Gary. Yes, Simon Cynic is not valuable because he's available. I don't care. I don't care if Simon Cynic is available to me. I'm not interested in messaging him and getting a response. I want him writing books that can change the world. I want him delivering speeches and working with compli want him doing that stuff. I'm not interested in him sharing something from his personal life with a little quote and then, like being there to hang her out in the comments and message with me. And I think a lot of introverts are probably drawn to that approach, especially if you're like in the thought leadership game. Like you want to lead with your thoughts, you want to lead with your ideas. You don't want to lead with being available. You know, engagement, like engagement is it's not that it doesn't work. It's just that it's like one of the lowest level ways of providing value. Unfortunately, because of the way social media has constructed itself, they have built these platforms to revolve around real time content and real time engagement, which unfortunately heavily favours the extroverts. And this is not in the book. This is something that's developed just over the last couple of years, and I've kind of refined my beliefs about this. Social media has not become a great place for introverts. In my opinion, it continues to get worse. I don't know if it will reverse course or if something else will arise to compete with it. But as social media is constructed right now, I feel like the message from the social media companies has become an extrovert or become irrelevant. And so I think we're at a real crossroads with social media that if you're on the introverted side, you can either choose to be on the hamster wheel and hope hope, hope that every fifth or 10th posts that you put up that actually promotes your business and sell something doesn't get squashed in the algorithm and stay ahead of the algorithm changes, which the odds of us out smarting that are pretty slim. Or you can find another way. And that's what I'm trying to encourage people to do is to get out like break off the hamster wheel completely use social media to the extent that you want to. That's fine. But build your your marketing system elsewhere, because if you can get a marketing system around you that works as an introvert, you're going to be much happier and you're going to get to where you want to go with a lot more ease and delight rather than angst and frustration. You haven't been an awesome guest, and honestly, I could probably go for another hour, but I know you have something on the hour. We're nearly out of time. If people want to connect with you, how would you like them to do that? You know, I'd love for people to go to get micro famous. Com because there they can now get in touch. They can learn about our podcast production service. They can get a free digital copy of the book and all that fun stuff. And more importantly, let's exchange contact info. You know, I'm not. I don't do like a bunch of lead magnets and all this stuff basically go there, drop your email in and you'll get a response and some information and things from me. But that's my real email address. Like I actually want to talk to you and that's to me as an introvert. That's what I really enjoy is yes, I'll send you emails about the podcast and things like that, but I actually want to hear back from people. And that's where I love to interact and have conversations with people is through email where we can share our thoughts and links to other stuff and responses to the podcast episodes and things like that and share ideas on how to market as introverts. So that's the main thing that I'd love for people to do. I'll put a link to that in the show notes and to get to bring things to the end. What's one thing you do now that you wish it started five years ago. Relentless Focus yeah. When I first got started out, I ended up in four different ventures. On top of running this fledgling agency, I had to unwind all of that stuff and get out of all of it and just focus on one thing. I wish I had done that right off the bat. Yeah, that's something I'm kind of coming back to now. I think that's a really strong recipe for success or ingredient. Rather, is focus on one thing until it's finished, until it's really just cruising along and then maybe look on to something else. Well, Matt Johnson, Micro famous. Thank you so much for your time. I'm going to be speaking to you about coming back at some point in the future. The listener doesn't know you, but there's something really cool coming. I think you'd be great to be part of it, but for now, thank you very much for your time. Yeah, absolutely. I'd love you. Before I go, just a quick reminder to subscribe and join our Facebook group. You'll find a link in the show notes or visit Amplifying Me on FM. Forward Slash Insiders also connect with me wherever you hang out, you'll find me on all the social platforms at Pop Gentle. If you enjoyed the show, then I would love a five star review on Apple podcast. It would make my day. And if you share the show with a friend, you would literally make my golden list. My name is Pop Gentle. Thanks to you for listening, and I'll see you next week.