Doing the 💪 work in public, with Kevon Cheung

Welcome to amplify the personal brand entrepreneur show. Today on the show, Bob is speaking with Kevin Chung. You want to align your online identity as much as possible with your real life identity. As you mentioned, Bob, a lot of people are trying to create a new identity and, well, you can hire people to help you, but at the end of the day, it's too hard and then you give up. So the only way to show up for years is that you're being yourself. Hi there and welcome back to the Personal Brand Business Show. My name is Bob Gentle and every week I speak to incredible people who share their secrets to building, marketing and monetizing their expertise and intentionally growing a unique personal brand and the mindset, most importantly that you need for that to grow and thrive. If you're new to the show, then, well, you still have your device in your hand. Take a moment to hit the subscribe button. That way you won't miss a single episode. And if you are a regular listener or viewer, then consider sharing this show with just one person. It's the very best way to help me reach more people. And if you are watching on YouTube, YouTube is new. Say hi in the comments. Also consider subscribing because that's my favourite thing. Honestly, I'm on Mission 1000 now. We hit 501 this morning. So if you want to be 502, you'll be my new best friend and also give this episode a like. So now, as a culture, we are trained to think of people who create as working in secret until they have that big eureka moment or they complete a mastermind. A lot of entrepreneurs try to work that way too. They build something, they have a big grand unveiling or a launch, and then they wonder why nobody cares. Building in public is a very different and very different entrepreneurial mindset and a very different creative mindset. It's one which I guess Parks the Ego Tour brings people with you on the journey and can lead to some very unexpected, surprising, often counterintuitive results. This week, I am delighted to welcome the built in public guy and the author of Find Joy in Chaos how to Build Your Twitter Presence so connections and opportunities come to find you. Kevin Chung, welcome to the show. Hey Bob, thank you so much for the warm welcome. I am super excited to chat with you. So let's do this. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. There's so many questions I have about both of these things. Both twitter. I've recently fallen back in love with Twitter after being really off it for years. And building public is something that's become more and more appealing to me over the last year. I find myself drawn to create, but I do wonder a lot of the time that what is created is often not what's wanted. And that for me, is a big problem. So before I start rambling too much, can you maybe just start by telling us a little bit about who you are, where you are, and the kind of work you do? Yeah, sure. Bob. This is a tough question, but long story short, I have always been a startup person for my whole career, and I've done different things in the past, like running a SaaS company, helping a founder run a kids coding school. My first job was a software engineer as well, so I have a bit of everything under my belt. But the life changing moment that really got me here to what you're seeing today or what the audience will see later on, is that about two years ago? So, end of 2020, I decided to leave the SaaS company I was running. And at that moment, I was looking at who I am as a new father at that time, too. And I was like, oh, my God. The only thing I had was a LinkedIn resume, a LinkedIn profile, and I was a little upset because I really worked really hard next to the founders, and how come I got to this point? So at that moment, I decided I need to do something under my name and see where that goes. And I started writing online, and the rest is history. It has been 25 months, two years now, and I have no regrets. You know, it has been such a rewarding journey. I met so many amazing people, and I I can live the life I want because I spend so much time with my family too. So that's a quick story in summary. So for the listener, who's completely new to the whole idea of building public, and I'm fairly new to it, if I'm honest, so you can treat me as that same person, what is the basic principle of building public that makes it distinctly different from the traditional way of producing products, creating content, anything, really. I like to use this example like a restaurant. Like, usually when you walk into a restaurant, you don't see the kitchen, right? You order and then they serve you the dish. And then whether it looks good or taste good, you only know it later on. But building in public is more like a restaurant with an open kitchen. So the moment you walk in, you're like, oh, this looks good. The chefs are preparing the ingredients, cutting things up, and cooking maybe the steak or the fish. So it is about really opening up what people say, the garage or the open kitchen for people to see. But actually, this is just one part of building in public. Most people only know this part, by the way. And the second part, which is part of my role to tell people about, is that, hey, these chefs in the open kitchen, they don't just stay in the kitchen. So this is when I bring in another concept called the omakase. So if you're familiar with the Japanese culture, you would know that at the sushi bar there's this thing called omakase where the chef prepare and where the chef prepare the ingredients in front of you. But they don't just do the food for you, they chat with you, they talk to you, they explain the fish, they explain the culture. This is what building in public is. It's involving the people in the journey. So I think in the earlier in the show, you mentioned about not building in the dark, getting feedback, building the right things. I think when you have this open kitchen concept, you are able to serve the right dishes for people because they're telling you what they like all along. So one of the difficulties that I assume is an instinctive reaction to the idea of building public is what happens if you're not very good at it. And I think here's the thing. If you want to be great at something, you have to pass through this valley of sucking. And for a lot of people, their ego can't handle being seen to suck. But sucking is relative, I guess. So how do you help people through this? All the mindset issues that must come up when they start thinking about showing their workings, so to speak. Because I've taught so many students and coach people one on one so far, I've realised the biggest fear or biggest obstacle that people have is that they feel like they're doing this all by themselves. Like, a lot of people would put a tweet on Twitter and feel like, how come no one is liking my tweet? How come no one is listening to me? So essentially, it's not really about the content. It's not even about that advice or wisdom that you put out. Everyone just want some kind of listener. It doesn't even need to be your potential audience or customer. It just has to be someone. So I think a big part of my course, like, module one, is all about overcoming that vulnerability, really understand what social media is about, to give yourself, like, a circle of people around you as your first group of friends. I think a lot of people don't get this part, so they get really frustrated. But from what I see, once you get some like minded people around and they're engaging with your tweets, that suckiness significantly dropped to almost zero, because you feel good about what you're saying, and then you can fine tune it to fit your target audience later on. I think this is an important point that a lot of people assume that they come into the world finished. And what I mean by that is something that's become apparent to me in business, is that your business will only grow when you grow. And a lot of people underestimate the importance of this process of becoming the business owner that they need to be, becoming the creator that they need to be. If you join with others in that journey, the process is accelerated, and it's accelerated significantly. And a lot of people, they do try and hide their creation, hide their process. They don't invite other people to participate in it, and then they wonder why they never really make any progress. So I think that's a really powerful idea. I do want to talk about Twitter, and I think I'm maybe going to look up to that in the second part of the conversation, because it's too easy to stop for me to start slipping into talking Twitter tactics, because you have an awesome book on that. I'm halfway through, but I want to continue with the building public thing a little bit. When it comes to building public, I'm going to get practical with this a little bit. So let's say I have an idea before a book. Let's deal with a book first, and then I'm going to look at maybe a coaching programme after that. So I have an idea for a book. I don't know if this is a good idea. I don't know if people want this book. How would you approach the initial what would that road map look like for somebody who had embraced building public? Yeah, I can actually talk about the process of how I wrote Fine, Joy and Chaos because I've been creating content. I have some followers, and for my first book, I didn't really know how to angle it, like, what would make a good book? So I actually follow Rob Fitzpatrick's. Right. Useful books. Framework. That was a really good book. So anyone writing a book should cheque that out. And basically, I just kind of list out the table of contents. And the way I write table of content is like, not trying to click bait people in, but I just make every chapter descriptive so people understand what they're getting. So my first task is I observe what's around me and I come up with the table of contents. And you know what I did back then? It was, I think, September 2021. So about one year into my journey building this business, I looked around me and I found ten people who I think they could be potential readers. I think they're the right fit. And I asked them, hey, would you have 60 minutes for me? Where we just get on zoom, we just read the table of contents together, and all you need to do is to give me some spatial expression and tell me whether this excites you or this bore you to death. And I did ten of them in two days. And you know what? After that two days, I pretty much rewrote the table of contents. And this is part of building in public, even though I'm not shouting on social media. But as you can tell, I'm scouting people on social media, and I'm posting the calendar so that the people watching me are like, oh, Kavan is serious about this. Kavan is not someone who just stay overnight. Cavan is not someone who just pulled two all nighters to finish a book, but he actually cares about the content that he scheduled ten calls to do the first step. So that was my first step. And then we can talk about second step as well. But I first want to see if you have any questions about the first step. Not questions so much as observations. I think what you've done already is you've got collaborators, you've got co creators already in the very first step. So that, I think, is an important point to emphasise. You write the table of contents. They rewrite the table of contents. Yeah. And I can tell you that these people get invested in the book, and when I launch it, they are the biggest fans. I would just give it to them for free, but they would help me share it with their circle. Yeah. So what's step two? Okay, so I told you pretty much rewrote the table of contents, right? And then this time I'm like, okay, I'm a little more confident about what it is going into the book. So I decided to write the first draught. But at the same time, I know I need to start building the wait list. So I have a landing page and I tell people, if you want to be a beta reader, please put in your email. So the process of writing a book is long, so I want to capture the people who are interested because they will forget and I need to update them. So step two is writing out the draughts. And then when I feel ready, I blast out to the email list for the book and I ask, hey, do I have like and I say, hey, who is free for the next two weeks? If you're free, reply and tell me, because I want to share the draught to you. And all you need to do is read it and use this platform to give me some comments at specific locations. So I still remember like, 40 people raised their hand. It was crazy. Like, people just love to help. If you're genuine and if you are serious about what you do, people love to help. And 40 people raise their hand. And I was like, no, there's no way I can get feedback from 40 people. So I said, I'm going to get my daughter, who was one year old, to do a lottery, pick out names from a box. And we picked twelve readers. So that was the first round of beta reading. And these twelve people went in, as, you know, probably maybe eight people actually read it. And then six people gave really good feedback. So that was the group that shaped the book. And guess what? Because I was a first time author, I rewrite the whole book again and then did another round of beta reading with another twelve people. So that was a long process, as you can tell. I think, knowing a lot of authors, they don't typically approach the production process like that. It is much more close, but they equally end up doing a lot of rewriting. But it's based on the feedback of an editor or a couple of editors. It's not based on the feedback of an actual audience of people who are really into what you do. And when I read the book now, it does kind of reflect it's very much, your book. But you can tell it's been through a process to get to where it is. It doesn't come across like it was written in a day, that's for sure. Thank you. Thank you for noticing that. So where does the build in public move from there? Okay, so from what I just described, that was pretty much the book writing process. I didn't actually talk much about the building public part, but the building public part comes in when you're actively sharing and involving your audience. Right? So imagine what I just told you, but think about me sharing every step. For example, my daughter doing the lottery, picking out twelve readers. I put that on Twitter, which probably gets me a few more emails into the waitlist. And then at the end, when my book is almost ready and I need to do the book cover, I have a designer, which is actually a friend. We have the draught and it's so crappy we couldn't even look at it, but I was like, whatever, let's just put it on Twitter, ABCD, see what people say, just to get a first sense of direction. So that's building in public this time really getting people involved because they have opinions to share. So just imagine this over a ten month period. Not daily, because I cannot make that much progress daily, but just like once a week or so. So it's it's it's yeah. Again, using the open kitchen analogy, a lot of the time these processes are behind closed doors. You don't hear about them, you don't see them, you don't participate as a consumer, you are allowing me to participate in and observe and celebrate all the little milestones along the way. That is a very different journey. So taking that then, to course creation or coaching programmes with a book, a lot of the time, this is what I want to communicate to you. Help me refine my message is essentially what you're doing with the built in public with course creation or coaching programmes. How would you approach that differently? Or would you I think I'm pretty set on the framework, so I would just approach it the same way, but probably with some small tweaks here and there. So I actually just started my own coaching programme. So I don't know if you see the Tweet today or in some places. Yesterday I posted a Tweet where I say, hey, I had my first session with my coaching and I took a screenshot of the coaching programme I was using and it is not really getting feedback from people to shape the coaching programme, but I am sharing these, like, little snippets so that people know. I didn't know Kavan do coaching, but now I do, because it's that one little screenshot that hints that I can perhaps join a coaching programme. So this is the kind of updates that I plan to do more in terms of shaping the programme. I don't know. This coaching programme is probably a bit harder because it serves a smaller group of audience and I probably want to prioritise their feedback over the public feedback. So you raise a good point, probably book is easiest to get public feedback courses. It's still easy because as a video course, everyone can do it. Coaching is probably the hardest. I did see that tweet earlier today and something springs to mind here that I think is quite important. I remember a coach, quite a big name, about six months ago, telling the world he had this spectacular launch. And then, very discreetly on Instagram stories, he posted a picture of his coaching session. And I thought, there are five people there. This was his spectacular launch. Five people. I think what the build in public demands is integrity. That if you want to present yourself as one thing and then build in public, it ain't going to happen. You have to be honest with yourself, you have to be honest with the world. But what's exciting, and you see this with the people who really embrace it, is the world rises up to meet you. Your honesty is reciprocated. You attract very different people to your business. You attract people to your business who are attracted because they actually love you. They love the product and not the pitch, not the launch process, not the tricks that marketers often use. It is a slow journey, it is potentially a slower journey, but I think it's one that's much more robust and leads to much more longevity, I think. Yeah, Bob, I totally agree with you. I think the key word in that tweet that gives you this feeling is probably when I say, I just started my programme and this is my first client. I think a lot of people would be afraid to say that because then they feel like, oh, the programme is so new, no one's going to sign up and pay you thousands of dollars. But for me, I don't know how, but I don't want to be an overnight success. I feel like if you launch a course with thousands or $50,000 in revenue, it is very hard to replicate that. But my theory is that I go slow but steady and the reputation, the goodwill is there, then it will be steady. No one can destroy me, which I'm seeing right now. I'm two years in and it is going uptrend. Yes. So let's talk about Twitter for a little bit. One of the things that's I don't know, Elon Musk, is apparently destroying Twitter, but I'm having more fun on Twitter than I've ever had, and I have a whole list of questions here. Go back five years ago, everyone was really focused on big Twitter followings, and I've really had a big shift on this. That one of the things I really value is connection and being able to actually engage with people who are like minded. And that's surprisingly difficult on social media across the board. It doesn't really matter what platform you're on with Twitter, it's a little bit different. It's very much the case that you get out of it what you put into it. And in a world where everybody is focused on automation and scheduling and things like that, a little bit of work is powerfully rewarded. One of the things that really stood out for me reading your book was how unhelpful big accounts and engaging with big accounts can actually be. A lot of the prevailing advice, particularly on Twitter, from people like Gary Vaynerchuk, is just engage with massive accounts they're following, will follow you back and it'll all be splendid. Well, it doesn't work like that. And one of the big pieces of bit of s in your book, as far as I've got so far, is unfollow all the big accounts. They're not helping you. So I did that and it makes a tremendous difference to my feed, because I start paying attention to the people who I feel like I can resonate with a little bit. And I approach Twitter quite differently. I'm trying to think what my actual question is here, rather than just monologuing on how good your book is. I don't mind you can talk about that for an hour and I'll be sitting here and listening. What is it about Twitter that, for you makes it so distinctly different from all the other social media profiles, when you can't theoretically do all the same things? What is it that's distinctly different about Twitter and the way that active Twitter users use Twitter? Yeah, so I use different platforms in the past, like, I was running a SaaS company and we use LinkedIn, trying to get exposure that way. Personally, I use Instagram a lot, but Twitter really was new to me. I have the account for over ten years, but I never used it. And I started using it because when I got online, I need to first find my tribe, like the people that I hang out in a happy way. So I decided those are the bootstrap founders. And I realised a lot of them are on Twitter. And then I saw the difference between the platforms. Essentially, you can look at them as social media, like connecting with people, but actually I see that the format of the platform makes a huge difference, like Instagram, because it's photo oriented. Now it's like video oriented, but back then it's photo oriented. It makes people want to post fancy photos, like at the beach, fine dining, all that. And what can we say to a nice photo? There's only so much you can say. And then lengthen because it's so corporate, it's so professional. You don't feel like you would post multiple times and every time you post, you post something long. So that is not a good way to create conversation. It is probably just like, hey, how are you doing? I'm fine. And then thank you, bye bye. But Twitter is different. Twitter is so short. I think in a way I got attracted because it is easy. I can write a tweet in a few seconds or minutes and then push it out there. But second of all, you can do a lot of back and forth, so it makes it very conversational. So in a community building sense, or like when I talk about audience building, conversations are where the gems are. You build connection that way. And I think Twitter is the only platform that enabled that. So this is why it's so different. This is why it's so good. I know Elama is coming in, changing things up, but at the end of the day, I don't think many people care so much. I read a tweet recently, like, why are you guys still all here when you're complaining about Elamas? The truth is people move in tribes. If most people are still on Twitter, people would stay. I think when one day everyone is gone from Twitter, then okay, for sure it's over. I think listening to you, what I was reminded of was on most social media platforms, people present a specific face to the world. On Instagram, like I said, it's very image led. On TikTok, it's super fast, short snaps, yeah, dancing. And it's obviously now on not all dancing. There's some normal things I need to move on from TikTok very quickly. Danger zone, then LinkedIn corporate Twitter. For some reason, it's a little bit like you can't hide who you are on Twitter. As soon as you start expressing yourself, if you're a bro marketeter, you're going to show up as a bro marketeter. If you're super conservative, that's going to show up. If you're a liberal, that's going to show up. If you're enthusiastic and positive, that's going to come across. If you're a negative owner, you can't hide that your personality. If you're expressing yourself on Twitter on a regular basis, it can't help but show up. And that for me is the important thing. And it comes to what you were saying there. Tribes form on Twitter and it's your vibe that essentially drives that tribe. And if you do show up on Twitter, it seems to be like people tend to coalesce around a vibe, not necessarily around an idea. And that's I guess why I'm attracted to how you come across on twitter and a whole bunch of other people. And it does start to feel like a little bit of a community, even though everybody has their own solo accounts. And what's interesting alongside that is a lot of the time you won't know if this account belongs to a billionaire or somebody who's just on day one, it actually doesn't matter, because when you meet somebody that you know, and you meet somebody that you kind of like, you just kind of like them. What you earn, what they earn, it doesn't matter. And I really love that. What's the word? Egalitarian would be the word? Yeah. That one surprised me as well, because I work with people who are quite successful in their career, and then before they join a course, when I look at them, they're like, they really don't know what to share. On Twitter, I thought it would be easy to just grab something from your day to day, from how you run your business and share it. But I guess the muscle is very different. Like, you first of all, need a system to write down those ideas, and then you need to write, and then you need to engage with people, which a lot of people don't want to spend the time on that, so it's a whole new ball game, but that's why it's so fun as well. So in your book, you talk about the peers framework, and I think this is an important point, and it applies to every social media platform with my clients. I'm sure it's the same with yours. The first barrier is I don't know what to say. It's basic writer's block. It's the blank sheet of paper. It's the blank canvas. Nobody likes a blank canvas. So tell me a little bit about the peers framework and how this can break down and move past the blank canvas. I think the key thing about the peers framework is that you want to align your online identity as much as possible with your real life identity. As you mentioned, Bob, a lot of people are trying to create a new identity, and, well, you can hire people to help you, but at the end of the day, it's too hard, and then you give up. So the only way to show up for years is that you're being yourself. So the peers framework really try to ask questions so that you understand more about what you want to show as well as what you don't want to show and what you don't want to do online. And then helps you have this brand guideline, which is usually for brands and companies, but you can have one for yourself as well, and to kind of guide you to show up every day to mingle with people. I actually went through the peers framework myself. That's how I come up with the idea of, hey, maybe I can share this with other people. For one thing, memes are really. Popular. You can get a lot of impressions. I actually struggle, kavan, you should do memes. But I'm like, no, that's too hard. That's not me. I don't want to be the memes guy. So that's one example. Let's maybe just spend a minute breaking down the Pier's framework, sort of P-I-E-R-S without going too deep, just so the listener can have some idea of what we're actually talking about and how that framework can free you to start enjoying some self expression. Yeah, I need to write down as well, my own framework. Yeah, okay. P is principle, right? So I guess you need to understand what kind of life values you have, what kind of principle you live on. So for me is honesty, integrity. I would never tweet something that is not true. So when you know that about yourself and you be like, oh, this is what I want people to see as well, then that goes into principle. And then we have interests. So interest is on the easier side. You have so many interests, but a lot of people either don't show any of them or show everything and make it a social media account where you talk about politics, sports, what you're doing on the weekend. No, we kind of want to find something in the middle where you just pick a few things. Like if you're passionate about online education, learning, then that could be a big part of what you share, and you want to see how that connects to your niche. So people come to you be like, oh, John the SAS person who's building this. Plus really care about online education, something like that. Just to give a focal point when people are checking you out. And then we have e exceptions. So this is the part when I talk about the memes. You can also decide whether you want to put out emojis. Are you the casual voice or are you a more serious person? You don't have to force yourself to use emoji, but you just need to make a decision of what to exclude from your identity. And then we have E is exceptions, so something that really makes you stand out. So for the people who are watching this on YouTube, you can see my nice wallpaper here. If you look at me cavan I put family. I put my babies at the first place. So it has something about family in my brand. So for me, I'm not scared to put out my family photo on Twitter once in a while. Again, not every day. So that's something to stand out, that's exception. And then r is reluctance. So that's something that you really don't want to do, and you want to say no to that. So I talk about memes. It could also be like emojis. You need to figure out whether you want to be a person who is more casual using emojis or someone who is more serious with no emojis. For me, that might be something like, I don't want to talk about politics or religion. Oh, totally. I don't talk about politics at all because it's not useful to my community or to my identity. So, yes, that's a good one. And then the last part of peers is obviously the S is strength. So you really want to understand what you're good at. I think someone put out a tweet yesterday, what are you good at that other people find it really hard to do? And I replied, I am good at being vulnerable and sharing my weaknesses in puppy. And then not a lot. A few people reply and say, oh, yes, that's what I know about Yukivan. You're really good at that. And to be honest, I know that. I know I'm quite vulnerable, I'm quite open. I know that's my identity. So for me, I just try to do more about that. Like on this podcast, I have no problem sharing everything I know when I tweet with someone. When I teach my class, I share all my stuff because I know I'm good at it. So you just need to find out what you're good at and amplify it. Amplify me. Right. And sometimes you don't know that about yourself, but as a friend, come on. Can know from Bob what I'm good at. That's a really important point, and for me, this really brings things right back to the building public. It's the world that tells you what you're good at. It's not what you think you're good at. And if you're never engaging with the world, you'll never find out what it is that really makes you shine. I think that's such an important point. A lot of people wait their whole lives not understanding that they have this incredible spark of genius in them that they've never tapped into. And it's only when you essentially start playing that you discover what that is and you can't really play on your own. You need to play with others. Then you discover where your magic is. That's so important. Yeah. So, Bob, I think it's a really brilliant example in my course being Public Mastery, where I tell my students, hey, when you're getting on Twitter or out of social media platform, you're kind of like going to a new school, you don't know anyone, and then you're like, how should I make friends? How should I be known in the school environment? And the worst thing that people are doing right now is that you're tweeting. You're telling people that you are the expert of blah, blah, blah. And in the school scenario, it's kind of like the new kid going on stage or going around and telling people, I'm really good at soccer. I'm really good at soccer. The next soccer match, I should be the captain, right? Then. Obviously this person is not going to be very popular, but I teach my students, hey, no, let's not do that. But what would you do when you get to a new school? Well, probably pick up a few friends who are really, really passionate about soccer or football. Depends where you're from. And maybe join like an activity for soccer. And people can tell you're good if you're good. And that way start to instil this concept into people's mind. And when the teacher pick a captain for the next match, you're you're going to be nominated. So it's essentially the same on Twitter. Don't be an expert, but you know, just help people out and let people elect you as the leader. That's a really, really good analogy. I love that. So one thing that I do want to look at maybe is both Twitter and building public. These are things that you should be in for the long road. These are sort of things that you can quickly read a book on and suddenly be great. You have to grow into them, essentially. Instagram, if you can hire a photographer and be awesome at Instagram in a day, it doesn't work like that on Twitter. So you have courses for both of these things built on public and being awesome on Twitter. Frankly, if people want to connect with you, if they want to go deeper with you on either of those things, or they just want to hang out with you on Twitter and find out how that works, how can they do that? Yeah, so I'm really active on Twitter. I think I just spend too much time on it. Well, I do have system these days to match my time, but I'm very active. So if you go to meet Cavan on Twitter, you will find me and feel free to reply to my tweets, to say hi or send me a direct message. Message is hard these days because there's so many people selling your stuff. Be part of the community, you know, there's so many people around me. I want you to meet some. And then from there, you can probably cheque out Making Twitter Friends. It's a free five day email course. So far in the last year, more than 2000 actually, people took it. So I think it would be an introduction to Twitter, to relationships, making to Cavan's work, and then you can go from there. Yeah, I think that this was a point I wanted to make a minute ago. This particularly relates to your book. Most books that you read about Twitter, they do focus on tactics. They focus on how to quickly grow your account, things like that. You spoke about making friends. I think for me, that's at the heart of it. How can you authentically show up as yourself and make friends, and friends help friends? That's really what's at the heart of this. That's something that used to really puzzle me is how do you break into that world? I could see people helping each other all the time. What about me. Well, you've got to give to get it's that simple. Hey, Bob. The biggest thing that I'm grateful for is because I talk about topics that are more on the authentic side. I attract a lot of people who are more patient, more authentic than usual. So I think when people meet each other around me or in my community, they usually just feel so much better already. So I think that is something that I'm super grateful for because the internet can be quite noisy and crowded. Well, Kevin, I have had great fun chatting to you. The editor is going to have a little bit more work to do than normal. Sorry thing, but it has been awesome. I'd love to have you back again soon, go much, much deeper on both of these topics. But that does bring us to the end of another episode. Thank you to you for listening at home. If you've enjoyed the show, I would gently encourage you to leave a five star review. That's five, not two, not one five wherever you listen and to share the show with just one person. If you did enjoy the show, then you will also love the personal branded business roadmap. It's 50 pages of everything you will need to start, scale or just fix your expert business. Click the link in the show notes or visit amplifyme agency roadmap. Thank you, Kevin, so much for your time. I've had great fun today. And to you home. See you next time. Thank you everyone. Bye.