How anyone can sell more without feeling gross, with Holly MacCue

Welcome to Amplify the Personal Brand Entrepreneur Show. Today on the show, Bob is speaking with Holly Matthew. There's lots of other stuff and messaging coaches, but, you know, my audience resonate with me because of my specific approach and style and personality. I have a lot of people that resonate with me because of my story and my background and the fact that I run my business part time around my one and three year old. That's very inspiring to a lot of people, but I'm not for everyone. No one is for everyone. And the more that we dare to own our brilliance and our areas of speciality, the more we're going to attract the people that are right for us and make it easy for them to say yes to us. Hi there. And welcome back to Amplify the Personal Brand Entrepreneurship. My name is Bob Gentle. Every week I'm joined by amazing people who share what makes their business work. If you are new to the show and you haven't subscribed yet, then don't forget to hit the subscribe show while you're sort of still playing with your phone. After hit and play. If you're an iPhone, then it's the plus icon in the top right hand corner of the follow button. And that way you won't miss a thing. So before I jump into introducing this week's guest, just a quick reminder. Once again, after nearly 200 of these interviews, I've learned a thing or two about what makes business work online. And it turns out success does leave clues. And I want to offer you a map. Not the map, but Amap. So if you jump over to my website, you can grab a copy of my Personal Brand Business Roadmap. Everything you need to start scale or just fix your personal brand business. Now today's guest, we're going to be talking about something that I find really exciting. And I know everybody finds really exciting. A lot of people are scared by it. Some people are not, and they're just a bit strange. And my friend Lauren Davies reached out to me after her interview with Holly and said, you have to speak to Holly Mcew. She doesn't do this very often. She only does it when she's really impressed. So, Holly McQueen, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Bob. So, Ollie, for the guests who don't know you, I'm not going to introduce you because I think you will do it much better yourself. You are in Australia. You talk about sales a lot. So for those people who don't know you, tell us a little bit about who you are, where you are and the kind of work you do. Sure. Thank you so much for having me. So I'm a sales and messaging coach for service based entrepreneurs. So specifically, my passion is helping my clients to really nail their positioning and master their messaging so they can be seen as the really obvious no brainer choice for their ideal clients. And also, as you mentioned, I do have a big passion for sharing how effortless and authentic sales conversations can really be, so that ultimately we can get paid what we deserve to do, what we love and serve the world at the same time. So I live in Australia, I'm originally from the UK, so I wound up in, quite frankly, the middle of nowhere, having lived in Sydney for a few years, courtesy of my Australian husband. So I now live in country Australia, which wasn't the original plan, but it is a really nice lifestyle around my one and three year old and easy to bring my business with me because obviously it's all online. So, yeah, that's kind of where I'm based. I have clients from pretty much every single background industry niche you can possibly imagine, which is really exciting and really fun. So although I kind of specialised into sales and messaging, the fact that it's for service based entrepreneurs means my clients vary literally from coaches, healers, mentors, business consultants, graphic designers, all the way through to child allergy, specialist, sleep consultants, pregnancy loss coaches, health and nutrition experts, interior designers, and honestly, everyone in between. So it's a really fabulous space to spend my time supporting people in. So there are two places I want to go and I'm a freewheeling kind of guy and I just kind of realised these are the two streams that I want to look at today. Number one, I want to jump straight into the weeds and talk about sales and then I want to talk about your own journey, because I think it parallels very nicely how other people's journeys should go. So straight away, the service based business world is a very broad one. You have everything from your local business coach all the way through to PwC and Ernst and Young, and then there's all kinds of businesses in between. But I'm thinking in particular, one of the things that stood out when I was looking through your stuff is you're not doing things the way an awful lot of the online. And I'm making the sort of air, quote Bunny ears here, gurus. So you should do things, which is with super complicated funnels and ads and all of this stuff. There's probably a degree of funnel in your life now. It's very relatable the way that you've approached things for a lot of I'm going to call ordinary people. So what I would like to look at is if you're a service based business in a local business community, you haven't got a strong online personal brand or any, you don't have a content bank that you're regularly creating. You really are operating in a fenced in ecosystem. If you like, what can people do? What should people be doing differently to approach their sales? Because the truth is, most people's sales happened by accident. In that environment, they depend on their local network and referrals and that kind of thing. It's not very intentional. A lot of the time. I find a lot of people approach their sales very sort of hit and miss the sporadic. There's no plan, there's no consistency to it. So for the person that's been operating sort of bumping along, it sounds mean bumping along the bottom, what can they do to sort of lift things up a little bit? Yeah, it's a fabulous question. And I think this is something that people really struggle with. And it really comes back to our own experience of being on the receiving end of sales conversations that have not felt good for us. And so we've naturally defined those experiences as quite negative. Maybe someone has been pushy towards you. It felt like that kind of icky, hard selling type of conversation. You've kind of withdrawn, you haven't felt comfortable or at ease. And it certainly has not been that no brainer. Yes. From your side, or perhaps you felt a little bit coerced into something. We've all probably had at least one experience of being on the receiving end of what I call a bit of a douchebag approach to sales. And that kind of means that what we have front and centre in our own mindset when we're approaching sales is, oh my gosh, I do not want to come across like that. And so the default response tends to be, well, I just won't even go there. Right. And we kind of hope that someone will ask or we hope that opportunities will miraculously fall into our lap and we can kind of just sell without actually having to tell anyone what it is that we do. The sad thing is that can kind of work. Yes. But we're very much kind of flying by the seat of our pants when we are kind of just hoping sporadically these opportunities are going to come out of nowhere. So I think that's the number one thing. But what's really important to reflect on when we do think about any negative experiences that we've had is to really use that as an opportunity to think about how we do not want to come across. We know how it feels to be on the receiving end of those types of tactics. But equally, there will have been many times in our lives where we have been an absolute, oh my gosh, sign me up now. Yes. In response to something as well. And one of the most valuable exercises you can kind of do when it comes to finding your own authentic approach to selling is to reflect on those times where it felt really good to say yes to someone else. And you literally couldn't wait to hand over your credit card or sign on the dotted line and get started. What was it that made that feel like such a no brainer? Yes. And it just comes down to some key fundamentals. I talk about the art and science of magnetic selling because I have a programme called Magnetic Selling. And I do feel that when we nail sales skills, it is magnetising the right people to us. And it really does come down to the foundational elements that so many people seem to skim over. And that is getting Crystal clear clarity around your niche and your positioning. Who exactly do you help? How exactly do you serve them? I'm sure people have heard that time and time again, but you would not believe how many people I work with, some who are pretty established entrepreneurs, and they really haven't refined that enough to the point where the person you're having a conversation with, their ears literally prick up like, oh my gosh, that's me. How did you know? That's exactly what I've been looking for. Tell me more. Right, so nailing the fundamentals is, number one, it makes your job so much easier. It really does. Because even if the person you're speaking to at this type of networking event isn't an ideal client, if you can tell them with such clarity and simplicity what it is you do and who you help, then they can repeat that to the people that they may know in their circles and refer you very easily whenever that type of issue or challenge or frustration comes up in conversation. So it's always valuable to know how to describe what you do simply and clearly in language that other people actually understand. And that is honestly one of the biggest issues I see time and time and time again in the online space is that people haven't even defined that to the degree they need to. That makes a lot of sense. And I've been thinking about Nissan quite a lot recently. And one of the things that keeps popping up is that there's a lot of fear around Niching. Yes. And actually a lot of that fear is justified because if you are operating in a small business community and let's say as a business coach, there's maybe half a million people in your city, which is a good sized city. I have a passion around people who keep fish, so I'm going to be a business coach for people who keep fish. That's a super cheap, not teeth like niche, and it's never going to work in your city. But I am the world's number one business coach for people who keep fish and I'm well known around the world. Everybody knows who I am because I've been creating content for years that can work. So there's a process of pivoting into a niche that probably has to happen for a lot of people. On the one hand, you slowly niche. On the other hand, you create content to grow into an audience that can comprise that niche. So I guess your niche needs to make sense for your business community. I guess that would be where I'm coming from. But you're absolutely right. If you can't say who you are for, then you're quickly going to get lost in the wind. Absolutely. I mean, the easiest way to start becoming known for something is to have a specialism that doesn't feel generic run of the mill, but also to really be consistent with that. And it takes some guts. I think it's a big rite of passage that everyone, myself included, goes through on this entrepreneurship journey of I'm just going to see who I attract. And there's lots of people that can help. So I don't want to miss out on any opportunities. And the exact opposite is true because it makes it so much easier for people to know instantly that you're for them if you have that specificity. And it's the specificity that sells 100% time and time again. So think about any time where you've been searching for some specific solution to something. I used to call myself a career and business coach. It was really broad. I straddled massive audiences. And if I talk about, oh, I can help you design a career that lights you up, great. But if I can instead specifically say, I will show you how to have a meaningful conversation to help you negotiate your salary with your boss with confidence tomorrow, that's a completely different response. Right. Because it's so specific, it's immediately obvious what the solution the outcome is going to be, as opposed to, yes, it sounds nice to design a career I love. Great. I'll get around to that someday. So it just hasn't got that kind of instantaneous, oh, my gosh, tell me more, because we haven't got to the specific details. And that is, again, a piece that a lot of people are missing. So really kind of doing the groundwork helps you to have these conversations with so much more clarity and confidence when you do. So this is where kind of mastering your message really helps. As I said, it instantly helps people to know you're for them. So a couple of examples of my clients. So one of my clients is a health and nutrition coach for women who suffer with thyroid and autoimmune illnesses. So if I'm a woman who suffers with thyroid problems and I'm looking for support with my nutrition and there's a billion nutrition coaches I could choose from, I'm obviously going to choose the one that specialises in my particular problem area. Right. So again, it's just those sign posts that instantly say, oh my gosh, that's my person. They understand me. They have a skill set. There's a sense of trust there and a sense of certainty that they're really going to understand exactly what we're going through. And guess what? We will pay more for those specialists as well. And it becomes an easier conversation to have because we're meeting people exactly where they're at. We're speaking their language. We're making it easy to connect with us. And as I said, there's an instant sense of credibility and trust that we have the expertise that can truly support them in their specific circumstances. I absolutely agree with that. And I think the joy of that is it then becomes a niche that is worth scaling, because if you're a generic service provider, you can create as much content as you want, but you're not going to cut through and it's going to feel like a futile hamster wheel. Whereas if you've got this laser focused beacon of clarity, you're for somebody, it's clear what the value is that you offer. And there are people out there who need specifically that. And you have shrunk to the point where you're the only person who's really offering to fix that unique pain point. Now you can invest in content, now you can invest in growth knowing that it's going to deliver for you. Absolutely. So I'm going to come back to our local service provider. And once they've decided, OK, I'm going to be a little clearer about who I am and what I do for people. They start on this Niching journey. I think something that you alluded to a moment ago was and I'll paraphrase it. But Niching, I guess, is a little bit like trying on different suits until you find one that really fits you well and you like it and you feel great when you wear it. And other people say you look great. I've tried on different niches and they haven't worked for me. I haven't felt good. So you need to start trying on these different costumes and find one that everybody looks at, turns around and says, wow, I really want to speak to you now. They've gone through that process and they're six months further on. They want to start taking a bit of control of their sales and not simply leaving things to chat. What are some things that they can do to move away from waiting for opportunity to come to them and start creating opportunities? Yeah, brilliant. So I think one of the really important things to remember about sales and what most importantly creates effortless sales is that people first have to buy into you before they will ever buy from you. And as a service based business, you are your brand. You are what people are buying ultimately, because there will be even when you have a specialism, there will be other people who ultimately can deliver similar offers or trainings or skill sets. And ultimately what it comes down to in terms of your number one point of difference, as you are obviously the expert of Bob is that personal brand and your personality. So this is where I think it's another trap people fall into with coming across as too generic, too general. So we can be vague in our positioning and niche and clarity, but we can also be vague in what we really want to stand for and the content that we put out there and what we share. It can end up being a bit vanilla, like, oh, I'm just going to share some tips and tricks and tips and tricks and inspirational quotes and more tips and tricks. And it's like people really want to hear from you. They want to know who you are. They want to know what your opinion is, even if it's alternative or unconventional, all the better. They want to understand what led you to doing this work. People really love to know that you get it. I think that's one of the most attractive things when we're looking to learn from a mentor or a coach is that we know they understand what it's like to be in our shoes. So if you have a story and a journey and a personal experience that has led you to have this passion to support people in this area, make sure that you are telling people about that, because that is hands down one of the most powerful ways for people to connect to you and with you. I often joke, but it's absolutely true. When I'm thinking about who I want to work with and learn from and invest in, I always say I need to know that you struggled to I need to know that you know what it's like to have been in my shoes struggling with this exact same problem. But you have found a way beyond that. Right? You're a few steps ahead, and that means there's evidence that I can be a few steps ahead as well. And I can learn from someone who's found a way. So I think really just not holding back from being yourself, because, as I said, that is your number one most powerful point of difference. And then really creating opportunities for people to experience you, because the only way that people can ever conclude that you are for them is to have literally experienced you and your content. And that's the only way they can come to any sense of yet they get me. They understand me. I want to know more about this person. So it's all about what are you saying? What are you doing? What are you sharing? And one of the most powerful ways to do that locally is obviously in person events, in person speaking, it is hands down the most powerful way to connect with a new group of people and sharing your story in front of that group of people, but also demonstrating the value and expertise that you have in your specific niche area through. I mean, I'm a big fan of doing talks. I'm a big fan of doing workshops where people can really see you, hear you and feel you, because ultimately this is a relationship that you're building. It's a partnership that you're creating if you're going to work together. And so developing rapport and trust is the number one most important thing to invite people into your world and to have them want to take the next step and learn more about you. Yeah. I'm glad you went there, because I think you look at a lot of these online, high profile personal brands, and they're holding things like virtual summits and challenges. And all this is in person events, the same as a local meetup, just scale. Their audience is globally distributed, so it makes sense for them to do that. But if you are even modestly well known in your local business community, do it in your local business community first and start investing today in content that will allow you to position yourself for the future to do the larger online events. But you can do exactly the same thing in your local community right now. Today, obviously, with covert, there are some challenges around, but less than you would think you could have a Zoom meet up with your local business community very easily and it will still work. Yes, absolutely. And I think people overlook the opportunities on their doorstep because they're jumping on Facebook and Instagram where they already have so many local networks to leverage, but they already have relationships. So I'm a big advocate of tapping into your lowest hanging fruit. And that means the people that already know, like and trust you, your existing networks, existing connections, existing relationships. Now, most people, when I say that, say, oh, but they're not my ideal clients. My existing networks are not my ideal clients. Maybe not, but you never know who knows who. So one of the strategies that I teach is the who knows who strategy because everyone is connected to multiple other people. And it is very likely that someone you know either has a connection to an organisation or a company or a business, they could offer an amazing opportunity with a warm introduction, getting a foot in the door to access the audience you're trying to attract. Or they may very well know someone in their immediate networks, personally or professionally, who knows exactly what it is that you're offering. So the more you're telling the people that already want to support you, who already do trust you, who will already vouch for you based on your character and your personality and their own personal experience with you, the more you're going to create very simple but powerful word of mouth without really having to do a whole lot except talk very clearly and simply about what it is you offer and the opportunities that you're looking to call in. Something I would like to talk about, if I may. And I don't know how this fits into yeah, I don't know how this fits, but I think it's an important question to ask. Is a lot of business owners price themselves in such a way that they're really pricing for survival? They're pricing to the market, and everybody's kind of racing to the bottom, especially when you're a general provider in a local business community. When you go online and you've started to build a personal brand and some authority, your pricing dynamic can change a little bit. But most people, when they're starting out on this journey are in this situation as they have to price to the market and it's a race to the bottom. How would you advise people to move away from that or start to remedy and do something about it? It's a great question and just for context, my background is actually in fast moving consumer goods. So I spent a decade working as a brand strategist for the lack of the Proctor and Gamble Unilever the companies who make big global brands like Gillette or Raw B and Trees Are and Dove Skincare. And it was absolutely tattooed to our foreheads that if you are competing on price, you are competing in an absolute losing battle. So the absolute core philosophy of having a successful brand is that you stand for something in the hearts and minds of your audience. That means the pricing side of things isn't the number one factor. And if we are in a position where we are kind of in the pricing for survival mode, it is usually because either we haven't really laser focused enough and we are offering something that there's a dime a dozen people offering. So we're very generous and so we don't have a point of difference, or it is that we haven't really got specific enough on the outcomes and benefits that we deliver and we're instead focusing just on the features. I spent several years training and mentoring life coaching students at a training organisation here in Australia. I was teaching the International Coach Federation curriculum, so I was surrounded by coaches who were so talented and amazing and passionate and excited about supporting others with coaching. But all they were doing was selling either a block of three or a block of six coaching sessions. What value does that give me? What benefit does that give me? Do you know what? I think I'll just choose the three. Right? So we really have to come back to what are the solutions that you are delivering through your services? What is the impact of those solutions? That transformation that before and after that you are delivering to a client because that is what they are paying for. When working with someone around, pricing is usually because these elements are actually not in place. So there's no clear point of difference and they haven't clearly enough to find what someone can expect to gain from working with them. They haven't made it a no brainer because they haven't got specific enough, especially into the things that that group of people really truly care about. But the other thing with pricing is pricing is energy. I fully believe that pricing is energy. So when it comes to selling, because a lot of people ask me what should I price this? What should I price that? What are people going to pay for this? The short answer is you don't know until you sell it and validate your market and actually test and then an experiment. But also it's just really important to tune into pricing that actually feels good. And a lower price doesn't necessarily feel good. And if your pricing feels off, you feel disconnected to it. You're not going to sell that service because you don't want to say that price out loud. If it's too high or too low and it's just not feeling aligned, you won't sell that. So we've also got to remember that kind of what feels good. What lights me up. Am I being super clear on what someone can expect again from working with me and how it's going to be delivered and really just tapping into kind of more of that neuroscience behind what motivates people to say yes. And there are some very simple, clear components that we need to be including in our offer descriptions so that we are ticking all those boxes. I can't wait until your website goes live. I'm going to be studying this so carefully. So I would like to talk about your journey a little bit, because something that I noticed looking around your world, one of the things I focus on within my personal brand roadmap is encouraging people to focus on authority. And when I look around your content, the number of authority signals there is tremendous. I mean, one of these tools you've been seen on everything. I really want to know how that happens. So what does the journey through your business look like? You know where I want to go with this. I'll give it a stab look. My background in terms of entrepreneurship. The funny thing about it was I never actually intended to start my own business. It became the only way I could do the work that I most felt called to do. So the short version of my story is back when I was working in the UK in what felt at the time like an absolute dream job, working in a big corporate, working on multi million dollar media campaigns and these big global brands, I had a bit of a quarterlife crisis where I was successful on paper, but questioning everything unhappy, burnt out, overwhelmed all that jazz. And then when I basically went through my own personal development journey as a way to just kind of find a little bit more meaning and more purpose in what I was doing in life, full stop, and certainly in my career and my work, that's what led me to NLP and coaching and emotional intelligence and all kinds of other amazing things that truly transformed my life. So when I moved from London to Sydney and I was starting literally from scratch, new home, new friends, new environment, new career, I was like, I want to do coaching. I want to support other people with the skills and techniques that have literally made me understand what success means to me personally and made me happier. And so I was brimming with enthusiasm. And I have my new shiny coaching qualification. I thought, well, I'm going to apply for a job in HR and learning and development. And every recruitment agent in Sydney basically laughed me out of the office and just said, that's not going to happen because your CV says marketing. I was very much boxed in and pigeonholed when I got here. And Sydney in particular is a very relationship driven market. I had no one that I knew. I had no networks whatsoever. And so I was pushing water up a Hill. So what I decided to do was negotiate a part time senior marketing role so that I could have one precious day to explore coaching and how I might make something of this in my own business. And as that grew, I was able to negotiate two days. So I ended up doing three days in my corporate role, had a job share, and two days on my business. It was an absolute dream because I had the best of both worlds. So I was literally starting from scratch and I had no audience. Obviously, I had no online presence at the time. I really had no clue. But what I did know how to do was have conversations with people and build relationships with people. And that's exactly where I started. And this is how, who knows whose strategy developed? Because that's how I literally got going. I was like, Well, I don't know anyone, but who does know someone. I was married to, an Australian who'd grown up in Sydney. So I started with his networks and just little by little, I started meeting as many people as possible. I would have coffee with anyone who would meet with me at the time. And one opportunity led to another, essentially. And I started doing originally training workshops. So I was doing a big mix at one point of training leadership teams in corporate. I was doing work in government, I was doing work in boarding school. Just really testing out all the personal development techniques that I had learned. And seeing, as you said before, trying on those different suits, seeing which audience I loved working with, seeing where I wanted to kind of focus and specialise and do more of. But it really started with just having conversations. And the number one thing to remember is that conversations lead to connections. Connections lead to clients. That's the only way we can really, truly go about that. So partnerships and relationships have been the number one way I've built my business from the ground up and continues to be that to this day. So to answer your question about the as seen in this is literally how those things have come about. Because when you are clear on the value that you can contribute, and this comes back to that clarity again and the messaging and really approaching all of these types of conversations from win win, what's in it for me mindset of how can I support the other person to get more of what they want. And in turn, I'll get what I'm looking for. And so from this. Yeah, I got featured in Mary Claire really early on in my business, which was amazing. So I had a double page spread in national magazine. I did lots and lots of speaking events. I literally just got in front of as many groups of people as I possibly could. And over time, that has led to other media opportunities and then podcasts, today guest experts. Speaking is a massive part of how I grow my business, my audience, my brand, and definitely has helped me to build that authority. And it has evolved over time. My niche has changed three times since I first started my online business. And now I'm feeling just really excited. I actually found the suit that fits. But to answer the question about the astinian pieces and the authority that is all down to relationships. Well, I'm glad you say that, because a lot of the time I ask guests, opportunity can come to us through one of four main channels. It can come through outbound sales activity. It can come as inbound opportunities through our content, it can come through ads, or it can come through relationships and networking and referrals. And it never ceases to amaze me that every time I ask that question, the answer where the real opportunities come? It's always relationships. And it doesn't matter if you're a small local service provider or you're a big online personal brand. Yes, you will have all those other three. They'll be working for you. But the things that move the needle, the real opportunities always come through relationships. Yes. It's good to see that hold true. Yeah. And it's so rewarding as well. Well, it is. I think that's the thing I heard somebody I know was in a little mastermind session and you shared a picture with me, and the caption was friends helping friends. And that really was what sums this industry up is what goes around, comes around. If you're there for other people, they would be there for you. And that happens at every stage, for every kind of strata, if you like. Yes, absolutely. I want to jump right back to the beginning, and we were talking about selling without funnels. You've been doing extremely well, and it seems with some very simple processes. And I was wondering if you can tell me a little bit about what that success has been looking like and how you've been delivering that, because I'm intrigued. Sure. So as I said, one of my key strategies that has always been in place and remains to stay is definitely these win win partnerships. So one of the most simple ways that I bring new clients into my world and into my audience is by getting in front of a group of ideal clients. So if you have no audience, if you have a tiny audience, you have an amazing opportunity to leverage other people's platforms by approaching them with a win win opportunity where you can contribute something of value to their audience. And the number one question to ask in those moments is, you know, who do I know that has my audience, but who does something different to me? So it's not competitive. It's always collaborative. And then having the opportunity to speak to their audience, their group, their community, their listeners by default, you have trust because you've had the warm introduction from that host to that audience already loves and adores. So you already have a responsiveness and receptivity that you don't necessarily have through a cold advertising route, for example, or just on a social media feed in general. And then getting specific on, you know, again, I call them expert topics. So really making sure that you're getting really clear on the expert topics you want to be known for. And those are the things that you consistently talk about. So having a very clear, specific focus for a particular session, and then hopefully you have presented something genuinely of value to the audience and you've all had a lot of fun. But then at the end of that session, if you have really kind of hit the nail on the head with understanding where the audience are at and where they're needing support, then you can also give them an invitation to take the next logical, no brainer step with you to get more personalised support in that specific area. So what I found has worked really well is having very contextually specific next step opportunities. That is literally just to develop that relationship further. So, for example, that might be offering a mini session session or a free clarity call. It might be 20 minutes, 30 minutes, where again, you're just developing further rapport. You're getting to know that individual better. You're really demonstrating again your expertise and your value. And then there's an opportunity to invite them to work with you in a more personalised capacity. So it's not just about book a free call with me or book a discovery call and being really generic. But what is the topic that you have just covered, and what would the next steps be? So, for example, if I had just run a session on how to master your message, and I given some principles that work really well to have high converting, irresistible messages that attract your ideal clients with ease, then I might offer a 20 minutes master message review session, for example, where it's then, of course, I'm going to take the opportunity, because if I resonated with this content and I know this is a gap that I have in my business, which a lot of people do, then I'm definitely going to take Holly up on that opportunity and book a call in. So that works really well. It can get really high conversion rates. So people take the next step with you, deepen that relationship and trust further, and then ultimately lead to clients that way. Plus, when you have had a really positive experience by being a guest expert and you've got great feedback from a group and the host, then don't be afraid to reach back out and ask for a testimonial. Don't be afraid to talk about that publicly and say, I love speaking on these topics. Who is looking for a guest expert in these areas? And again, this is why we want to nail our expert topics. So it's very easy for people to say, oh, that would be a great fit for my audience if I just said, oh, I talk about sales, great, I'll think about it. Sometimes people say, okay, yeah, we just need help with sales. But if instead I talk about how to sell in times of scarcity, which was a topic I did during the pandemic, everyone was afraid to sell online, for example. That's really specific. It's intriguing. Or how to create effortless sales without paid advertising, that's interesting and specific. How to sell when you're an introvert, for example, that's very specific. So getting really clear on your expert topics, but also getting clear on how specifically you can add value to an audience, again, that you're not generic, that works brilliantly. And then asking that host, Is there anyone else they know in their networks who would really benefit from having you run a guest expert speaking session for their community as well? And all kinds of opportunities come through their networks too. Again, it's the who knows who principle. So that has been a massive part of how I have built my own networks, built my own audience, got clients honestly with ease. Because when people have had the opportunity to see, hear and feel you, as I said earlier, and be in your presence and experience your content, they know instantly if you are for them or not. They know instantly if they can see themselves working with you or not. And so it's often a no brainer to take the next step if it's genuinely filling a need they have at that moment in time. And then the more that you are consistently talking about the same expert topics, that is how you build your authority. That's how you become known as the go to expert in a particular space. It doesn't work if you are constantly talking about all kinds of things or you're just trying to target too broad an audience. It's really hard to be known for something if you're too broad stroke. But when you have that specialism, it's so liberating because you always know where you're going to focus. You can really go deeper and broader. And it makes it easy for people to recommend you, to refer to you, to sign up to work with you like it really does. So that in particular has been a really fabulous strategy. And then that needs to obviously Philtre through into your content. So thank you for your kind feedback on my content with the authority queues. But again, this all comes back to nailing your foundations when you're Crystal clear on who you are speaking to and how you want to serve them, but also what you want to be known for in your nation industry and space. Then again, you want to be consistent with that. So just at a glance, at a snapshot, someone knows what you're all about. They know what the value is that you can offer them. And you're never going to make the same waves when you're casting the net too widely and also when you're not really showing, as I said before, your own personality and that content as well. So I do think becoming known as a go to is not just about the content that you share, it's about the energy and personality that you infuse into that it's your specific way and approach and personality in terms of how you deliver it. There's lots of other sales and messaging coaches, but my audience resonate with me because of my specific approach and style and personality. I have a lot of people that resonate with me because of my story and my background and the fact that I run my business part time around my one and three year old. That's very inspiring to a lot of people, but I'm not for everyone. No one's for everyone. And the more that we dare to own our brilliance in our areas of speciality, the more we're going to attract the people that are right for us and make it easy for them to say yes to us. I love the picture you painted there. And I think that last element of courage is actually really important. I've been nosy guy. I think I was on your Instagram earlier and I'm paraphrasing, but it was something along the lines of clarity and confidence spring from action. Yes. And this is so true that there are people probably listening riddled with anxiety of, oh, I'm scared to niche. And I don't necessarily have the confidence to put myself forward as a guest expert, especially in places where there are big audiences. But what you described, it can be started tiny and it can gradually scale up. And you can do this in your local community. You can do this with whatever online audience you have now, whether it's on LinkedIn or wherever, who do you know who? And you know people, and it will scale you all the way up. I see big influencers doing exactly what you described right now. It works really well and it's super simple and it's almost like one of these perpetual motion machines where authority gives visibility, builds authority, gives greater visibility. You need to start. So I love that. I guess this is probably a brilliant place to bring things to a close. I think I would just come back to this clarity and confidence comes from action. It doesn't work the other way around. The important thing is people need to start taking action, because out of that everything will grow. And I think everything you described as a brilliant place to start working. So I would encourage people to go back and listen, but this time with a piece of paper and a pen. Holly, what's one thing you do now that you wish it started five years ago? I really do think it's exactly what we just talked about. It's owning my brilliance and allowing myself to be the specialist of the things that I most feel passionate about and not feeling like I have to know everything, but also not feeling like the number one important factor in standing out is I've got to appear really credible, right? Because actually it's the connection that is key. So I think a lot of people road block themselves because this is a client conversation I had just in the last week. I've got to add value, I've got to add value, and then they're blocked. And instead you just shift that to this is just about connection. This is just about connection and being consistent with the things that I want to make a stand for and want to be known for. Then suddenly things flow so much more easily. So do what you really genuinely feel excited to do, not the things you feel you should be doing to be successful. Just really go to where you feel drawn, where you feel energised, where you feel motivated. Because when we're having fun, we just end up taking action. We can't help ourselves. And then you get momentum. And then you start experimenting and exploring and getting feedback and seeing what works and what doesn't. And then suddenly you are getting the clarity and the confidence through taking those action steps. So really start where you're at. Start with where you feel excited and allow yourself to zone in on the things that you feel most called to specialise in. And it will make everything so much easier for you and just to allow yourself to really be you. Like, I spent way too long trying to be taken seriously by being really credible instead of just actually sharing my story, my personality, having fun. And the more fun I have, the more successful I am. Hands down. Absolutely, 100% true. I doubled my revenue last year and I had the most fun ever. And you know what's really interesting in that? And this is something I found just to Echo what you're talking about, but it's a slightly different perspective on it. There is a danger of showing up as someone else. And the danger is you'll connect with and draw the people that aren't aligned with you. But if you really lean into who you are, there are billions of people on the planet. You will attract the people who are drawn to you for the right reasons, for the things that really make you you. And you'll find that those are clients that you enjoy working with at a level that you've never enjoyed working with people before. Absolutely. So that's so important. And another thing that I've found is you may not know what it is that makes you special or unique or amazing today, but I promise you, if you start showing up for people, they will tell you. And that's a wonderful thing. Yeah. Whenever in doubt, ask your audience. Yes. Holly, if people want to connect with you, if they want to go further with you, how can they do that? Thanks, Bob. Well, very welcome to follow me on Instagram. I'm at Holly McKee. I also have a free Facebook community called Empowered Entrepreneurs Connect and Inspire. So I'm very much a Facebook girl and I have a wonderful, like minded community of entrepreneurs. I'm sharing lots of tips and resources and very honest, real behind the scenes of what it takes to run a business part time around a one and three year old. So you're very welcome to join me there. And then if anyone would like to really just understand some practical strategies of how to start attracting more clients, even if you don't have a big list, even if you're not using paid advertising at this point in time, then you're very welcome to also download my free cheat sheet. It's 20 plus free ways to find clients and you can just go to my website, Hollymaku.com gift. So Hollymawcue.com gift and you are very welcome to snap that up. I had a cheeky download of that earlier. It's really good. Holly, you have been an awesome guest. I have had so much fun. I think we're going to be speaking again. I hope so. But for the moment, thank you so much for your time. It's getting late for you, so it must be time for bed for someone. It's definitely time for wine. Well, thank you very much. Thank you for high Sumi, Bob. Thank you for having me. Before I go, just a quick reminder to subscribe and join our Facebook group. You'll find a link in the show notes or visit amplifyme. Fminsiders. Also connect with me wherever you hang out. You'll find me on all the social platforms at Popchintal. If you enjoyed the show then I would love a five star review on Apple podcast. It would make my day. And if you shared the show with a friend. You would literally make my golden list. My name is Bob gentle thanks to you for listening and I'll see you next week.