Becoming Superbold, with Fred Joyal

Welcome to Amplify, the personal brand entrepreneur show. Today on the show, Bob is speaking with Fred Joyle. Doing something every day. A is really powerful because the brain says, this is who we are. Do it once a week, once every two weeks. You're a dabbler, and the brain knows it. And you have to restart yourself every time. When you commit to every day anything this is a life skill, anything that's important to you, you want to get to it every day, even if it's for five minutes. The brain cheques in, and the brain works on it in your subconscious at the same time if you do it every day. So that's the pride method. Hi there, and welcome back to Amplify. My name is Bob Gentle, and every week I speak to incredible people who share what makes their business work. If you're new to the show, then while you still have your device in your hand, take a second to subscribe. And if you're a regular subscriber, take a moment, perhaps to leave a rating or a review. So this week, I'm really pleased to have Fred Joyle with me, and we're going to be speaking about confidence. We're going to be speaking about cultivating the superpower of super boldness. Fred, welcome to the show. Bob really excited to be here. Thank you. I mentioned you earlier, I get pitched by probably about four or five guests a day. Actually, I think I have something like a 99% rejection rate, because most of the time I'm going out looking for the guests that are just the perfect fit. But yours was the perfect fit. So for the listener who hasn't read your books, haven't discovered Fred Joyle yet, can you maybe just tell us a little bit about who you are, where you are, and the kind of work that you do? Sure. So back in the started a dentist referral service. I was working in the advertising world and wanted to start my own business and was young and naive enough to think I could pull it off. And it turned into the largest dental referral service in the US. And over the course of 25 years, in aggregate, somebody said, how much did you make if you added up all the money you generated? It was over a billion dollars of revenue, and I had never really done that, because if you're successful for that long, it adds up. And learned a tremendous amount about business and what to do and what not to do. And also developed my public speaking skills and my writing skills. I published a couple of marketing books for my industry and became the face and voice of my brand, and eventually my brand became separate from the business. I became very well known in the dental industry as a marketing guru, for lack of a better term. And the next chapter of my life was about what I had learned from being a very shy, under confident person growing up where I had just missed so many opportunities and it was so frustrating to me and even angering to me at times. And I would see bold people and I just couldn't figure out why they were behaving the way they were. Why weren't they experiencing rejection like I was? And hesitating. So I eventually just started emulating them, as uncomfortable as that was, and realised that boldness was a superpower doors open for you that you weren't expecting, and opportunities presented themselves and could be seized in completely different ways than an underconfident person imagined. So I eventually wrote a book on how to do this in a much faster way than I did it over decades. So that's why my latest book is called Super Bold from underconfident to Charismatic in 90 Days. And it's a systematic way that anyone from wherever they are can develop their confidence and boldness in a much more accelerated way and develop a methodology for doing it and growing their boldness, really for the rest of their life. That's what I'm doing. I'm working on my boldness still all the time and it's been very rewarding. I think this is one of the things that a lot of people underestimate, is something like boldness or charisma. It's not something that you unlock, it's a quality that you can cultivate to the point where it's useful, but you can continue to cultivate it way beyond that. I think confidence is very situational and I know for myself, you just describe yourself as a painfully shy child and I identify with that very strongly. A lot of people now would think that I'm very confident, but I'm very confident in the things that I become confident in. I'm not confident in many other things. So I'm thrilled that actually you identify as continuing to work on that, because I think anybody that tells you they've finished working on that, they didn't understand it in the first place. Yes, and as you say, it is situational. They will have areas of their life where they are completely confident. I mean, they're not shy with their family and their friends, but put them in a situation where they are uncomfortable, suddenly they hesitate, they can't speak or they miss the opportunity completely. The window just opens and closes, because I often tell people sometimes it's not carpe dim, it's not seize the day, it's carpe momenti. Seize the moment, because it's not going to be all day that that opportunity is going to present itself. And what I do is I help people find those areas. They may say, Look, I'm really great one to one with people. As soon as I get in front of an audience or I get in front of a team, I crumble, or if I see somebody I really want to meet, whether it's a famous actor or athlete or business person, I got nothing. I can't do it. I freeze. And I say, that's what super boldness is you can bring your boldness to any situation. Even if you don't feel confident, you know what to do. Boldness actually builds your confidence. Because I really make an important distinction here. People say, well, what's the difference between confidence and boldness? Huge difference. Confidence is how you feel in any situation. Boldness is what you do. You don't even need confidence to be bold. You just need to decide to do it. Boldness is a choice. Confidence is a feeling. Boldness is a choice to act. Big difference. It's very similar to the definition of courage, which is the decision to move in the face of fear. But it is qualitatively slightly different. I think what would be useful is to maybe put some context in this. And I think what I would maybe ask is, you mentioned you struggled with boldness in your youth. How did that manifest and how did you uncover the steps towards being a little bit more intentional about boldness? It manifests everywhere. Pretty much in my youth, except with my close friends. I couldn't ask a girl to dance. I couldn't ask him on a date. Eventually situations came up where it was so easy to do that I actually did it. But from a work standpoint, the example I point out in the book is I was working in this business. I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my career. So I worked in all different jobs just to make money and be able to bounce around and travel and do stuff. And I was working in this machine shop and I was on the shop floor as an assistant. And the owner said, well, you're a really smart guy. He said, I think you could be one of our salespeople. And so he brought me up to the office and he sat me down at a desk. He gave me a phone and a list of all the businesses in the state. And he said, start calling these businesses and see if they want to do business with us, if they have something they need that we could machine for them. I couldn't dial the phone one time back to the machine shop floor for me and it was so frustrating. Like, wow, I literally can't do this. And so it was such a glaring miss because it could have been the beginning of a life skill of learning how to sell. And obviously as a salesperson, you understand that you're going to make 100 calls, you're going to talk to ten people, you're going to close one. It's basic. So you can't be afraid to dial a phone because you're going to have to dial it 90 times before you get somebody to talk to you. Probably people who do real estate, they go door to door. It seems ridiculous, except they've proven statistically that between 51 hundred door knocks you're going to find somebody who's thinking about selling their house. That becomes a client, but most of them, even working in real estate, can't do it. It's like, oh, I can't take the rejection. It's like, well, that's because you've labelled the rejection as some sort of failure, whereas a successful bold person labels it as one step closer. And so I had stacked these things in my life and I said, I've got to fix it. And I eventually had bold moments when I started working in advertising that brought out a certain level of boldness in me because I was really in love with my work. I just thought it was so brilliant that I would pitch it really well and they would bring me into pitch meetings even though I was the junior copywriter, because I would pitch with such enthusiasm and confidence. And that was like my gateway into discovering boldness as a superpower. And then I said, I got to transfer this to everything in my life. So I think a lot of people, they make excuses for themselves and they just assume, well, I'm a shy person, I'm not a charismatic person. There are people who will push themselves to the front. They're pushy and they always get all the opportunities and they just settle like that. And I think what I love about your story is that you didn't settle. And I think it's a role model for a lot of people to understand how did that work? And obviously, that's the whole thrust of your book. But you talk about having a process towards cultivating that quality of boldness and obviously nobody wants to go through 25 years of hell to cultivate that. So how have you codified that into a process that people can work through? Because the truth is, there are so many opportunities. This is the personal brand entrepreneurship. Personal branding is all about communicating your genius to the world. And there are so many people who have a lot of value, the signal is so weak that nobody's ever going to receive it. It comes down to boldness. So how can we cultivate this boldness in a more intentional way? Understand that boldness is like a muscle. It is something you build by daily activity that is essentially pushing you into your discomfort zone. If you're trying to get in shape, you're doing physically uncomfortable things, you're running, you're lifting weights. Because if you're trying to get in shape and you walk for three minutes a day, nothing happens. If you work with three pound dumbbells, you're not going to get any stronger. You have to strain your muscles to make them stronger. You have to strain your boldness muscle to get stronger. And so I have what's called the Pride method, which is an acronym for the P stands for preparation, r stands for relaxing, I stands for Insights, d stands for Dosage and E stands for Everyday Action. And these are the steps. This is a systematic way to do boldness exercises, but then also to say, okay, I'm in a situation, I really want to meet that business person. She's one of my idols and I'm going to get tongue tied. If I go over to it, what do I do? The thing is, nobody teaches any of this stuff. This happened I was teaching high school kids this and realising they didn't know this because nobody taught me any of this. Nobody taught me anything like good social skills. So I define myself. I want to go back to that thought of when you define yourself as shy. Instead of saying, I behave shy in certain situations, I am underconfident in certain situations. You say I'm an introvert. Well, I tell people I'm a bold introvert because I would default to just being by myself, except I didn't want to do that. So now I choose not to, even though I say I don't want to talk to anybody at this party. So instead I talked to ten people at the party and I defeat the reflex to the point where now boldness is my default mode. And it starts with preparation. I want to break down a little bit more the steps, just so you know. So stop me if you want some colour on each one. No, you just go ahead. Yeah. So I'll run through them a little quickly and then we can dive deeper into exercises, for example, that you would do. Preparation is that first step. And we don't prepare ourselves with social skills. We think that should be automatic somehow. And mostly we're surrounded by bad examples that people do all of these things because they're under confident in certain situations. We emulate that instead of the proper preparation. So let's say you've decided you want to start flexing your boldness muscle. So you're going to talk to somebody at the coffee shop every day, somebody in front of you on the line. What you're going to do is prepare what you're going to say. You're going to look at them and say what would be an interesting thing to compliment them on? Maybe they have a really interesting beard or moustache, or their hair colour is really interesting, or their clothes really look good or unique on them, or they got a nice smile. You're going to find that thing to say and rehearse it in your head so that you have something. And I point this out to people. Is you don't necessarily have to say that when you get good at developing your boldness. You're still going to prepare. But it's the foundation for you being spontaneous. Because now you've got something you're going to say. But in the moment you could suddenly say something else. You could walk up to them and they could turn to you and look at you and say, wow, they have amazing eyes. I have to say something or Those eyeglasses are so unique, I want to know where they got them. And suddenly you have this strength to be spontaneous and improvised in the moment because you've prepared. That happens to me all the time. When I do a lecture, I'll prepare a whole lecture. I may not do half of it because I'm so attentive to the audience that in the moment I can discover what they need, because I know what I could say, but it's not necessarily what I'm going to say, because I want to focus on what works best in the moment. That just takes preparation. The next step is relaxing. And nobody teaches us how to relax. They say, Why don't you just relax? And it's like, Because I don't know how, that's why I don't relax. But there are some really simple techniques for relaxing breathing before I hit the stage. And if I had a big audience, 50 people, I'm going to take three deep breaths backstage and then I'm going to shake my whole body to really just relax my physiology. Because when we're anxious or nervous, we tighten up. We'll suddenly discover we're doing all of these things. We're folding our arms, we're crossing our legs, we got our hands blocking our genitals, whatever the hell we're doing. That communicates. We're tense and you can just release it. The body responds to that and it responds to breathing. You could even go the next level and vibrate the vagus nerve, which runs down the centre of your body, and it will physically relax you if you just make a certain sound. And once you realise you can relax yourself, that's relaxing. Just preparation also relaxes you. So all of the steps of the Pride Method build off each other. The next part is having insights. And I've learned this by observing bold people and how they acted and what their mindset was. And they understand that this one big thing, that people are not thinking about you anywhere near as much as you think they are. They're thinking about themselves. We all have judgments about everybody and they're based on almost no information at all. We hear one thing that they say, or we look at their expression, or we look at what they're wearing or their hairstyle, and we create a judgement about who they are. I'm wrong about 95% of the time. So when I talk to them, I discover who they actually are. And so I don't trust that judgement. And then I also realise they have a judgement about me that's based on nothing, or virtually nothing. And I can't worry about that because that's out of my control. So when you release yourself from other people's judgments, it's really powerful, insight. And also bold people know that most of the time nothing bad happens, except if you label it that way. They decide not to be embarrassed. They decide not to worry about feeling awkward. They embrace. They go, wow, I'm feeling really awkward in this situation. And they'll even call it out in front of somebody and say, like, I know I seem really awkward right now and it's because I'm so impressed with you and how successful you are. And that relaxes them. And then the other person says, wow, you're a human being, but you're actually open about your awkwardness and what happens is your awkwardness goes away. So there's key insights that help us shift our mindset as we're trying to take bold action. And then the other step, the D in the Pride Method, is Dosage controlling the intensity of the experience so that it's not overwhelming, but it's uncomfortable. Going back to the weightlifting analogy, if you want to get stronger, you don't start with £300 and a bench press, you're going to start with 80, 75, 50, whatever you can handle, and push yourself gradually up. You're going to control the weight with boldness. You're going to control the intensity. If you say, look, I really want to get good at public speaking, so I'm going to book a room and have 1000 people in it and then see how it goes. I can tell you right now how it's going to go really badly, because it's overwhelming. It's an overdose. You're going to be so nervous on stage, you're going to clam up, you're going to forget everything that you want to say. And we see this happen to people all the time. People who are brilliant musicians or performers in a small group or that they've practised, suddenly they get a big audience, they're forgetting the piece halfway through and making dozens of mistakes that they would never make because they did a Dosage leap, they overdose themselves. So just like anything else, you're titrating towards your tolerance gradually and that leads to the e in the Pride Method, which is everyday action. Do something every day towards building your boldness. Make some bold moves every day, because when you do that, the brain says, oh, I guess this is who we are now, because the brain is looking for the easy way out. The brain is trying to conserve energy, because the brain is 2% of our body weight and 20% of our calorie consumption, so it's constantly in conserved mode. It's waiting for you to say, oh, we're not going to try that hard. Great, I'll cheque out. But if you say no, I have to fully engage, I have to fully listen, I have to be aware, I have to embrace my discomfort. The brain says, all right, well, all right, that's my job. We're going to be bold. And the other thing that happens neurologically is you will actually build new neural pathways based on your bold behaviour and even better, your underconfident and shy neural pathways, your former default mode. Those neural pathways will literally atrophy over time and you'll feel the shift when you work on these things. So doing something every day is really powerful because the brain says, this is who we are. Do it once a week, once every two weeks, you're a dabbler. And the brain knows it, and you have to restart yourself every time when you commit to every day, anything this is a life skill. Anything that's important to you, you want to get to it every day, even if it's for five minutes. The brain cheques in, and the brain works on it in your subconscious at the same time if you do it every day. So that's the pride method. What I love about this is it really is a roadmap to resetting your identity. And it's so simple, and it strikes me as very similar to, I used to run marathons, and you would meet people, say, oh, I could never do that. And you as a marathon runner, they could easily do it. It's just you need to take these baby steps. You need to train every day. You need to be constantly building that muscle, and very quickly, your identity shifts to, I'm an athlete. What you described in this process is something that I've absolutely been through. I am a painfully shy child. I've almost stumbled through the process that you've described there. But actually codifying it like that takes it from a stumbling idea that's almost unconscious, this is what I should be doing, to something that, like I said, it's a roadmap to a life skill. I can see this for so many people, being a gateway into a whole new life that it's thrilling, really. I can see this for some people as being the right of their life. It's awesome. Yeah. My goal is for somebody to be able to bring their full self to whatever situation that they're in, because most people are interesting and unique and rather amazing if you get to know them, but they're so hesitant to reveal that because they feel like it's going to be judged or rejected. And when you decide not to think that way, life opens up and you start to take bold action and you say, this is how I want to live. I don't want to pursue comfort as a goal. Your comfort zone is a place to go to restore yourself and then go back out into the world and be uncomfortable trying new things, experiencing something different, meeting more people, being vulnerable to connect more deeply with people. It's very easy when you feel shy to say, I don't really need people. This is a story we tell ourselves, well, the reality is in our DNA. We are social animals. This is how we took over the planet is we learn to function as social people. We need this in our life. And if you shut this off, if you block this, if you convince yourself you don't need it, you're playing it safe. And who wants it on their tombstone where they say, I played it as safe as possible the whole way, and it was really satisfying. Nobody says that. But what happens is decades go by. Bob, I'm older than you, and I got to tell you, I'm sure you've probably started to notice it's like, where did those five years go? How can it be five years later already? Well, it turns into ten years at my age, how can it be this decade? How can I be having another decade birthday, anniversary here? It doesn't seem possible. I might be a little bit older, younger than you. But definitely if I were to look back on my career and my life so far, I think what's one thing I should have done differently? Everything can be extrapolated back to boldness and just being more comfortable with being uncomfortable, trying a little harder, putting myself into situations that I let other people put themselves into and so that they could see the successes. So many people, they failed to bet on themselves. And that bet the chips go down on the table with boldness 100%. And what bold people know is that fearing failure is the real failure. It's like letting the fear of failure stop you from acting, guarantees your failure, because you're not going to try. Whereas they say, I'm going to try, could very well be a total disaster. But somewhere in that is some information for me to step up. So it is not a reason to retreat, it's a reason to mine that information, to say, oh, fear is just full of information. It's a way for me to restart with more information, to do something more intelligently, with more skill. So they'll bumble into stuff all the time and I do it too. I said, yes, this is definitely the deep end of the pool for me, but it's outside my comfort zone. But it's not. The dose is so crazy that I'm going to be incoherent or whatever, or I'm going to fail at it. But you need boldness to do important things. There have been going to be pivotal moments in your life where you're going to need to step up or stand up or take action or speak up, and you want to be able to act in that moment. I used several examples, but sometimes you're in a marriage and you need to speak up about your expectations in that marriage. And people say, Well, I don't want to do it. She might react and say, Look, I don't want to be with you if that's what you want. Bold person says, Great, I'm glad I found that out because that's what I want. Instead, we're hesitant to speak up because we don't want to jeopardise this comfort that we have. But what happens is 20 years later, you go, I should have wrapped this up 20 years ago when I first had the instinct. Or you just lay out your expectations and you work through it. But starting a business, raising money for a business, you've got to be bold enough to do that, to speak at a funeral of somebody who's really important to you. I meet so many people who don't speak at their parents funeral. I was like, oh, I'm not good at public speaking. I hate public speaking. I don't like to speak in front of people. It's like, this isn't a presentation. This is you talking about how you feel about this person and the impact that they had on your entire life. And this is a window that's going to shut. And so often, I'm that guy that gets up and speaks first because nobody says anything. Would anybody like to say anything? Nobody says anything until I opened the floodgate. And 30 people later, all these people have gotten up and expressed something. But everybody is sitting there. Nobody wants to be first. You know what bold people want to do? Be first, so maybe they can go again. And I didn't get to eulogise my dad because the priests wouldn't allow it. At the time, it was a Catholic service. And years later, my cousin had the same problem. His mom died. And the priest said, no, we only let people read from the liturgy that you can't there's nobody up that can stand up in church and say anything. So he said, okay, fine, let me read the epistle from St. Paul. So he stands up, he reads the epistle for St. Paul, and then he proceeds to take the next 15 minutes to talk about how much his mother meant to him and just tell interesting stories about her. He was like, I don't care about your rules. This is my mom, and this is my moment in this room is full of people that loved her, and I want them to all know how much I loved her. And nobody stopped them. The priest sat there, I'm sure, grumbling to himself, but the priest wasn't bold enough to stop them, which was great, but I watched him do that. I went, God bless him for doing that, because that's what we didn't needed. We needed to laugh. We needed to feel her and feel his loss and at the same time feel his joy and appreciation about his mom. And he just said, I don't care. I'm not going to let somebody stop me. And that's what bold people do, is they never stop themselves. They let somebody else try to stop them. And that's what makes people uncomfortable. They say, oh, no, she's an attention whore. She makes people uncomfortable. It's like, no, she's just doing what she ought to be doing or chasing her dreams. And the fact that you're uncomfortable when she does that is actually that's a your problem, not a her problem. And it's a great shift. I think one of the things that I always tell customers when they're talking about their anxiety around it being visible, for example, is the truth that one third of people probably won't like you. One third of people will not care, but one third of people will love you. And your job is to show up for the one third that love. You, but it's fear around the other two thirds that often prevents it. And what I love about your process is it gives a clear structure around showing up for that one third who really do love you. And I think anybody listening to this podcast, you're here. It's the personal brand entrepreneurship, people. Your job is to show up. But so many people struggle with that one particular thing because it just often looks so big, and they're comparing themselves with other people who are doing similar things. And what I love about your process is it's not waiting for the big moment to come along and then it's everything on red, but it's preparing for that moment. It's cultivating the skills sort of pushing out that elastic comfort zone so that when you do need to step up and show up, it's not actually as big a deal as it would have been if you'd waited. It's this whole military thing of train hard, fight easy. Yeah, you do the training so that when it hits the fan, it's not a big deal. Great expression. In these situations, in these critical situations, you will not rise to the level of your expectation. You will fall to the level of your training. That's what building your boldness muscle is for. You're going to do these things where it is actually zero risk. Talking to a stranger is zero risk. And part of that is if you need everybody to like you, you've set the bar impossibly high, as you say, a third of the people. When I do a lecture, 10% of the people are going to think I'm an idiot, a complete idiot. And it's something going on in their head or everything I say is totally irrelevant to them or they've heard it all before or whatever, and they don't believe it. Whatever. 10% are going to become raving fans and then everybody else is in between. So I can't worry about the 10% who think I'm an idiot. I'm not going to convert them any more than I would convert somebody to vote for a different party than they normally vote for by my clever diatribe about their party I'm going to focus on. So instead, I want to find out why they think the way they do, what's led them to believe what they believe. I'm going to be so interested in them that they're forced to find out how. I think when you let go of that need for everyone's love, that impossible need, because if that's your safety needs, you're in a lot of trouble. And you know it's nonsense when you say it out loud, but that's what we need. Oh, I don't want anybody to judge me negatively. Guess what? It's happening completely out of your control anyway. And I think it's actually really important. In your Practises, you talk about the preparation, relaxation, insights, dosage, and everyday actions. And I think the everyday actions will teach us that when things go wrong. The world doesn't end. Nothing explodes, nobody gets shot. Most of the time you will get negative reactions and that will be okay. And you'll become accustomed to it just as much as you get great reactions. That's how you build the muscle. You have good training days and bad training days. You learn from all of them and. You realise that you can't actually die of embarrassment. Feels that way, but it's not a medical diagnosis. It's all in your head, and it's a choice to be embarrassed or humiliated. My favourite example of this is a friend of mine. She's speaking in front of an audience, about 500 people. So good size audience. She's about ten minutes into her presentation on stage and she breaks one of her high heels. Now, the women in the audience gasp when this happens because that's horrifying to them, that something like that would happen to them on stage, they're already in awe that she's willing to get on stage. And then when something potentially humiliating happens and she could have just walked off stage or just overreacted in all sorts of inhibited or underconfident ways, instead she kicks off her high heels and says, well, I guess I got to start spending more than $30 on shoes. And the whole audience, because they're so nervous for it, they just burst out laughing. And at that point, she owns them because they admired her for being public speaking. Now they admire her for her applaud. In this incredibly potentially embarrassing situation, she made a choice to make it funny rather than embarrassing. And now they just say, wow, she's amazing, but she's also human. Stuff can go wrong, but she decides to roll with it. Roll with everything and don't label it you don't have to label it as bad. You can label it as, oh, this makes me really human, or, this is a golden opportunity to get a laugh out of the crowd and lay out my human side. So one of the things I love about the people who do the kind of work you do is you get to work with people and help them into real life changes. And I'm curious, on behalf of the listener to know, with all the people you've worked with, do you have any great stories of people who have had really tremendous breakthroughs? Because I think they're often very motivating and identifiable for people. Yeah. I had one woman who she's a dentist and she's Indian by origin, East Indian, and she's got a bit of an accent. Her English is not perfect at all, but she wanted to she climbs mountains in the Himalayas and wants to tell people that experience and bring people along and do this. She wanted to tell the story. She says, I want to do this on stage. And so she tells the story and she tells this incredible experience of nearly freezing on the top of the mountain, and her sherpa bringing her to the top of the mountain. It was his determination and what he did to get her there, so that she was at the top of this mountain and she could see sunrise coming up over Everest in the distance. And she tells it like she found an interesting new app on her phone. It's, like, so low key that I finally said I said, do you realise how few people have climbed the Himalayas? Okay? Nobody in the audience has been at 20 0ft and knows how little. So tell it. Let us feel it. And she got to that point, and I said, no, I want you to move like you're moving, trying to take those steps up the mountain. I want you to tell this story. And she said, at one point, I couldn't tie my shoes. I couldn't make the last 70 metres to the top of the mountain we were trying to climb. And I thought, this is far enough. I've gotten this far. I can see Everest. This is my dream. And he said, no, top of the mountain, that's where you're going. And she said, But I can't even take a step at this point. And my shoes are untied, and I can't untie them. I can't take my gloves off. It's freezing to retie them. And he kneels down, pulls off his gloves and retives her shoes for her. And he says, we're going to take three steps at a time. Take a breath, three steps at a time. And that got her all the way to the top. And so I made her keep telling it until she was telling it how she felt it. And by the third time she told it, she said, and he knelt down and retired my shoes. She burst into tears because she finally connected with that feeling. And when she did that, you could see the whole room, because this was in a classroom setting. The whole room leaned forward, because now they were fully engaged with what she actually experienced. And that was her epiphany moment. She said, no, I can be 100% vulnerable with my feelings in front of 30 people, and they will experience what I experienced rather than me telling them, because otherwise they could read it, send them a letter, send them an email telling them this story, but I want to feel what it's like to be at 20,000ft. Her whole story was her relationship with the Sherpa, but she didn't reveal it. But when she finally she didn't allow herself to feel it. And when she finally did, she allowed us to feel it. And I said to everybody in the room, I said, if you can't connect to the emotion of what you're telling us, people listening to you are not going to connect. You have to be able to connect and express that emotion. It is a life skill to be able to communicate your ideas effectively, passionately, so that people understand and appreciate and are drawn in. That's all charisma is. You are so connected to who you truly are and so confident to act in this situation, or so bold to act even when you're not confident that people are magnetically drawn to you. I think that's a great story. I really appreciate you telling that and seeing the time. I'm very aware of how precious your time is. The reason is there's lots of more places I want to go and I'd really like to dig into your career and how you cultivate your own personal brand as well. But I think that's a whole another interview. So I may have to have you back. With your permission. We can do that, Bob. But for now, if people are listening, are thinking, this is the guy, I want to take action on this. I want to learn more about Fred Joyl. I want to learn to become super bold. How can they go further with you? How can they connect with you? So Fredjoyle.com is my website and you can see lectures that I've done on boldness. You can also see if you want to enlist me to come and do a keynote address to your team, your people, your group, whatever that is. And the book is available in hardcover, audible and Kindle versions. And it's me reading the Audible. And if you are reading it or using it some sort of digital form, you can go to the website and download all the exercises, because 25% of the book are all of these boldness exercises that will move you up your confidence levels, gradually stretch your comfort zone. So you want a physical copy of that. So those are available. You can download a PDF of those from the website. And I actually just started to do a two day workshop, a Super Bowl workshop, which has been transformational for people and really accelerates them through the process. But if you're interested in taking advantage of what I can offer to your people and certainly get in touch with me, it's very easy to do on the website. And Fred, my final question is what's one thing you do now that you wish had started five years ago? I started daily practise of talking to a stranger. And what I wish I had done five years ago, which was the bigger shift, is now, because I'm trying to defeat my judgement of people. Now when I look at somebody and I want to offer them a compliment now, I pick the thing that I have a negative judgement about. That purple hair looks stupid on them, okay? Because we all have this. We all do this right? Or I do it. I don't know about everybody, I do it. And so instead of complimenting on something that I can appreciate, I pick that one thing that creates a negative judgement in my mind. And two things happen. One, I see that they had purple hair for a reason. And when I say you're really working that purple hair, it looks amazing on you. And they will beam with appreciation from that, as will anybody. I do these drive by compliments, but I've picked this thing and what happens is it changes my judgement of them too. At the same time I'm able to release my negative judgement because I've focused on it and forced myself to be positive about it and it's been really powerful. But when I tell people this and I tell them in the workshops and lectures, they say, now I don't trust you when you compliment me because I think you pick something weird about me that you have a judgement about. I think that's the thing with inner practises is sometimes they should stay inner. Yes. And you don't tell people that you're doing them, but I can see that as extremely powerful. Talking to a stranger every day is one thing, but actually trying to understand your own judgement and how you're reacting people unconsciously is super powerful. Fred, thank you so much for your time. I've had a great fun, have really enjoyed learning about your work. I will be reading your book next week. But for now, thank you so much for your time. Thank you Bob, for having me on.