Never Lose Another Client, with Filip Sardi

Welcome to Building your Leader Brand. Today on the show, Bob is speaking with Philip Sadi. Were you ever labelled as different and trying to find your place but not being able to fit in? I had this issue. I thought it was an issue since I was young. And basically, I always tried to fit in in different group, different types of, how do you call it, different types of personalities until I finally figured out I'm tired to try to fit everywhere else and just try to figure out who I actually am. Hi there. My name is Bob Gental, and every week, I speak to incredible people who share their secrets to building, marketing, and monetizing their expertise and the mindset you need for your business to grow and thrive. If you're new to the show, then while you still have whatever device that is in your hand, take a second to subscribe. Don't forget, you can also download the Personal Brand Business Roadmap and lots of other free resources I've been putting on the website recently. Just visit AmplifyMe. Agency/resources. That is my introductory note read. That was terrible today, Philipp. Philipp, welcome to the show. Great to be here and excited to chat It's not the talk. Usually, I sound much more structured and natural at the beginning of the podcast, but let's not worry about that. Let's just flows. So, Philipp, we're going to be having a very interesting conversation today, really focusing on how can we provide a retention experience for our clients. But before we go too deeply into that, for the guest that's listening and meeting you for the first time, can you maybe just tell us a little bit about who you are, where you are, and what you do? Yes, I can, of course. I'm Philipp, originally from Croatia, but I'm a world traveller, and I enjoy eating food. World traveller and food, the classic hipster definition, but I really love it. So business-wise, I am the founder of the Client Flow Movement, which is actually focused on helping my clients win by taking even better care of their clients. A bit like meta description. I was a launch strategist for the longest time. If you'd met me in 2016, I would be a robot without heart and emotions. Now, luckily, I've turned around and figured out how to be a robot with emotions. So best of the both worlds, introvert and outliner. And as I already told you, when I read your website, just reading those parts that I like talking to introverts and nerds. I'm like, Okay, let's see where it takes us because I think I can share a thing or two about that. I learned long ago that I really need to own my introvert and my nerd. I probably come across as quite outgoing and confident these days, but it's not always been the case. I think to a large extent, it's just come down to relaxing into who I am a little bit. But I do feel the pain of the very self-conscious. It's a tough gig to be a really self-conscious marketer. Yeah, I agree with that. Were you ever labelled as different? Trying to find your place, but not being able to fit in. I had this issue. I thought it was an issue since I was young. Basically, I always tried to fit in in different group, different types of... How do you call it? Different types of personalities until I finally figured out too tired to try to fit everywhere else and just try to figure out who I actually am. I think it's one of the things I love about the internet these days is it's far easier for people to find their people. Oh, yeah. Back when I was a kid, in the before four, when there was no internet, it was really quite isolating. I think these days, as a business owner, to be able to connect with other introverted or nerdy business owners is a pleasure and it's far, far easier. So We spoke about the client flow movement. I spent a little bit of time looking at my own business recently. What are the things that move the needle in the business? There was marketing and being seen as a leader through my content. Then there was having a productive and proactive sales process. Then there was providing a first-class VIP customer experience because retention is probably the most underrated aspect of business growth. This This is what I think I would love to speak with you about today. You are, it seems, the retention guy. Have I got that right? Yes. If there would be one word that could be something that describes me in business-wise. What is your philosophy? What is your practise? What is your business around this? And if you met a business owner, how are you approaching helping them with this whole retention question? First, we identify, basically, we focus for make or break milestones in their business and just start with that. Just identifying what's happening with their clients. Because I know most of people and business owners and entrepreneurs and coaches really care about their clients. That goes without That's what it's saying. And those that are ethical get hit the worst because they care. But at the same time, clients fade away and they don't know what's happening. And then they start questioning their self-worth. And then they even get blocked at certain revenue ceilings because they start thinking to themselves, Oh, if I scale even more, my systems are going to break, but I want to work with more clients. I want to keep the high touch and quality. I don't want to be perceived as such. Then there is this whole mix of limiting beliefs and the lack of just a pure system and strategy for them to be able to do, let's say, business as they want at scale. That's why I tried to demystify the entire process, and that's why I simplified it really, really a lot. Because as I said at the beginning, one of the things I'm a numbers nerd. If you'd met me a couple of years ago, I tried to do the same thing about retention, but I was focused on so many different KPIs. For me, it was all about, Okay, let's take a look at all the KPIs we can track, like 30 different things. What I've learned over the years, most of those KPIs and metrics are vanity metrics. That don't mean a thing. I managed to simplify the entire process, and it's easier for me and people are on the enough. If you take the average coach or consultant where they may feel like it's difficult to think about their client work, which is quite... It's the soft side of things. It's not necessarily... It's not easy to correlate cause and effect. What are the most common KPIs that you turn to? So one of the first ones is basically figuring out not just what the final outcome is, but what are all the micro wins along the way that can create a momentum as your clients go through your programmes. That's huge thing because when you're focused on marketing and sales, the big things are lead generation and of course, sales conversions. Then we were conditioned to thinking in terms of, Okay, then I promise this outcome to our clients, and that's the only thing that matters, and that's the only thing we are tracking. And then it's either, Okay, I'm going to admit that we have 5% success rate across industry, which is a normal benchmark, so I'm not going to, let's not I say, not going to care about the rest of the audience, but I'll just settle for that, or you get curious as to how to change that. So I would say tracking micro steps. And one of the first one is, how long does it take for someone to start using your platform, your education system, or whatever you use. When they sign up, is it immediately? Is it hours? Is it days? Do they get stuck there? Then the second thing, which is also important, is what I like to call education loop. How much time are they spending on watching the materials you've prepared for them? If you have additional materials, recording, are they attending the calls? Because a lot of the times people love to, let's call it, thoroughly They educate themselves, but then they get stuck in the education loop and just one more lesson loop, and then they don't move forward to the next part, which is, are they actually implementing? And those are tracking, okay, what shows us that they are doing the work? In the end, we have to focus on the actual, let's call them business performance metrics. And are they staying? Are they renewing? And are they promoting us in terms of, let's say, renewals? I extend it a bit, but this is six or seven core metrics that are really important. As I'm listening to there, I'm reflecting on my business and clients' businesses. And there may not be a direct correlation. So for example, I don't have course material. I think many of my clients don't have course material. But attendance, actually coming to the coaching calls, or are they rescheduling and things like that? Are they executing on the things that we're working through. And I'm also thinking, what's really interesting is the more systematic we are in our approach. And what I mean by that is, as a coach, we can go two routes. Route number one is free wheeling, loosey-goosy, making everything up for the first time for every client, which is a very creative approach. It's almost probably my natural instinct. But then there's another route that we could go, which would allow us to benchmark our performance much more effectively, where we have a uniform, structured approach, where achievement one unlocks level two, and we work much more stepwise through a logical process. My ADHD brain tells me that I couldn't do that, but I wonder if it would provide a much better experience for people. And certainly it would be more tractable for me, that you could optimise every single step along that journey and track it. It does beg the question, when you meet somebody and in your practise, you get to see the inside of lots of people's businesses, you probably can look at somebody's business. On the surface, they're doing okay, but you think this is a car crash. You need to do this in order to grow. What are the remedial measures that you see need to happen, the things that you need to fix before you can start implementing something like the client flow process. One of the first thing is basically what you were just saying now. I love how it's connected, is Is there a specific path or a journey to the outcome, or is it just free flowing? Because, yeah, I was the same way in a way that, okay, let's just do whatever we want to do. But what I've learned is If you have a specific path, you know what to optimise. But I'm also the person who has multiple, let's say, client profiles or client segments. And then what we've learned is they can choose their own adventure. Maybe not 15 different paths, but we have three key areas where the outcome are three different things. Okay, do we want to focus on the sales first, or do we want to focus on saving you more time and optimising the systems, or just focus on pure client experience and making sure it flows effortlessly? Maybe that's a starting position. We're figuring out what are at least narrowed-out outcomes based on your client segments. One of the statements on your website was, double your business by making 5% of your existing clients happier. I'm really curious to find out what you meant by that, because I sense there's something important in this. Yes. This goes towards tracking the KPIs because if I just track the KPIs, I see the pure metrics. But what I've learned, what I need to focus more on, and my clients as well, is tracking the sentiment. It's basically the sentiment of, are they getting a positive momentum? Are they being slowly in a negative loop and slowly fading away? Are they attending the calls? Are they participating on the calls? And what is the sentiment when they are on the calls? Are they asking questions? We can measure some of that stuff, but most of that stuff is basically making sure to understand our clients and to support them in the best possible way. It's not like saving them or having to carry them to the end goal, but making sure there are boundaries, knowing what's my responsibility and what's my client's responsibility? And supporting them throughout the way in this, Okay, I'm here for you way. Not like, Oh, today you did 17%, yesterday you did 14%, it would be better if you would have done 13% more because then you would be closer to the outcome. That would be the old Philly Probot when I was testing the concept with clients and it just didn't work, especially with the visionaries who are, like you said, who want to do big things, who want to do big projects, who don't want to get bogged down by all the metrics. That's why making sure that we have this emotional support and path supports their growth and also their motivation to get results. One thing I'm wondering is, how do we get the balance right between subjective and objective measurement? Because there are some people, and you'll recognise this, you get in a call with them and they have an incredible poker face and you think This guy hates me. How do you measure sentiment in that situation? Because what I find sometimes is I'll call somebody out and say, You look like you want to kill me. I said, Oh, no, no, no. This is just my face. I do apologise. I'm super enthusiastic. But that's the thing. At least in my case, I'm very open with my clients. I'm professional, but I'm also casual. We know there is this, Okay, if I have something to ask you and if it's going to be a bit more intimate, I'm going to ask you because I want to help you. I don't know, the transparency behind it. Okay, I want to say authenticity, but at the same time, I know that's a trigger word in branding for a lot of people, so maybe we just want to skip it. But at the same time, they know what to expect of me. And then if I don't understand something on an emotional level, I just ask, and that's it. Tracking KPIs is great. I think what gets tracked gets improved. The This is a maximum business. Everybody knows this, but knowing and doing are not the same thing. So from a practical perspective, how many things should we track? Because if you start tracking too many things, it becomes quite meaningless. So what's essential for us to track? And very practically, how would you advise people to actually do it? What platforms make sense? Okay. So as I said, I started by tracking 30 different metrics, and that's not going to work. Even by creating fancy dashboards for our clients before, they never used it because it was just too many metrics. That's why I've settled for a couple of key metrics in each of the four important areas. And first one is time to first win. This is the activation area and just seeing how fast can we keep the client excitement and engagement. The second part is, as I said, attendance rate, simply because I want to see if... Now I'm excluding modules and pre-recorded videos based on your example. I'm just like, okay, if we have weekly live calls, then I want to make sure to track their attendance rate. Then we have a set of predefined micro-wins. I know clients need to achieve to move closer to the big outcome. This is something we are regularly tracking in a weekly check-in. We have a weekly check-in form, which is basically a set of 7-10 questions. Some are open-ended, some are more specific, like from 1-10. How did you feel this week? What are some of your wins? Then based on that, I get the mix between objective and subjective indicators. We started also playing with the AI. We feed that in and then try see the sentiment of the entire group, and not just for this week, but for the past periods, because if you tend to track for a longer time, I can't remember what happened two months ago, but AI can reflect that, and then we can see the improvement or changes throughout the specific period. It's nothing complex. Basically, you can have a simple form and start manually, just having Airtable dashboard and a form, and that's it for you internally. That's really I think that the time to first win and the micro... I can't remember what you called them. Those are like micro commitments, micro wins. You can call them whatever. Micro wins, that's the word I'm looking for. That you actually document what they are. I do like the idea of the weekly check-in form. That's very simple, but it formalises something that would get in the way otherwise. And it does mean that they have a space place where they don't have to worry necessarily about the confrontational aspects of answering some questions. Exactly. And that's one of the reasons why I think... I know I'm subjective. I'm doing this, but at the same time, we are developing something that's called the Clientful Pulse, which basically is an app that's going to help our clients do so, simply because we really tried to simplify the entire process, give them a space where they can share the progress without any live confrontation, but at the same time give them enough written space. At the time, it's going to have the audio as well. Then create the ritual around it. It's not just like, Oh, filling this weekly check-in. We need to create the habit and the ritual of checking in regardless if you had wins or fails. Because initially, people love checking in because they can share their wins. But if they missed the action or activities that week, then they still You need to feel okay by saying, Hey, I did nothing this week, and this is where I am. But this is important to incorporate in your programmes and company's culture where you say, Okay, let's just support you where you are at the moment and make sure that this becomes a habit and a ritual. I love it. I think we could go much, much deeper on this, but I think for the listener, they probably got the picture now. And again, for the listener, I'm curious to know, as we may We pivot a little bit out of the value that you bring to your own journey now. Who do you work with specifically? Who's a great client for you? Coaches or online entrepreneurs who want to serve their clients at a bigger scale. Ideally, they already have grouped programmes. Now, they just want to make them bigger without losing that high touch, what they like to say. That would be the sweetest spot for me. I loved what you said earlier on about there are people who will sell and not worry about what happens afterwards. And then there's another group of people who are cursed with a conscience, who they sell something and they genuinely want people to get value for it. The more successful you get, sometimes, the harder it can be to ensure that that value actually happens because it's on them to a large extent. If we understand where people are winning and where they're struggling, then we can fill those gaps with attention. We can fill those gaps with information. There's so many ways we can support people if we actually understand what they need, listening. And systems for listening, I think, are really underrated. And certainly, I've learned a lot today. I'd like to switch over now to my favourite part of the show, where I invite people to share three things people can just go and do. So this could be mental models, it could be tools, it could be books, it could be websites that you love. Everybody should know that this website is so good, it should be illegal type stuff. What have you got for us? What's the thing number one? Okay, I had a different thing in mind for the number one, but I think I'll switch. The thing that you have in mind is the thing that matters. That's all that matters. Okay, because we shared my first thing, those were the micro wins. They already know what to do so, so I just keep that. It's going to be I'm business-related for this one, but you mentioned the book, and immediately it came into my mind, Presence Process by Michael Brown. It's the book that helped me through 2024, which was a very tough year for me, and which was the year where I had to, not had to, but wanted to face my internal, let's call them demons, internal child, and all that stuff I was suppressing for years. I was Michael explains this. It's a 10-week process, and every week has a mantra, where you meditate in the morning for 15 minutes and in the evening for 15 minutes, and slowly peels off the layers during the 10 weeks. It literally made my life better and my business better at the same time because I was able to more connect to myself. And that's one of the reasons why I decided to jump heads-on and really focus on me on the client flow business, even though I had three different projects. I really love that as a thing to bring because one of the things I've discovered speaking to successful person after successful person on this show is that the most successful people will consistently tell me, I'm not the person now I was five or six years ago. And that your business will really only grow when you grow. And being intentional about that is one of the most mature things you can do. So I think that's a great suggestion. So what's the thing number two? Okay, we are going back to the client flow now because we haven't talked about it. I think it's really important for entrepreneurs and coaches in our listening base is thinking about creating your upgrade and upsell offers. By talking to a lot of people, I I found out in the past couple of months that upsells as concept are getting found upon and get the bed wrap. I don't think that should be the case. A mini framework that we put together is the emotional upgrade path. So thinking instead of just having the offer that you know comes next after your main offer, which is the classic upsell type of thing, and pushing it because it's the 10th day or the fifth week of your programme, thinking about those type of offers in a different way and meeting your clients as they go through their journey, where they are at the moment. If you notice that they need more help, offer that accelerator. If you notice that they want to learn more, offer the bundled course that's not part of the main thing. Just Just thinking of it as the essential part of your business and of your client journey. I think that slows down a lot of entrepreneurs because they just have a wrong perception in at least in my opinion, about what the classic of upsell offers are. You know what I love about that is the traditional upsell model is automation, whereas this is much more upsell through attention. And That if you are tracking people's experience of working with you, you know when the right time is. It's a much more humane way of approaching this thing. There's nothing wrong with selling things to people that they actually need. But when you're selling through automation, when everybody's getting offered things at the same time, all that's really left is persuasion. If you're offering people the right things at the right time, there's very little persuasion required. Because there's a genuine need there. I love it. It's a very intelligent way of approaching being able to enrich people's experience of working with you. It's just a conversation in the end because now you mapped out the microbeams. You know where they are at, you notice what they need, and you say, Hey, I have this. Sounds like it could be a good thing for you. If not, let's keep on moving on the client journey where you are. That's super simple. No persuasion, no self-taxis, just a conversation. So thing number three. Okay. That's the most tactical thing, and this is something that's, in my opinion, totally underrated in the entire client journey. Is the offboarding process. It's what's happening when the programme ends. And a lot of people, I mean, most of the people are aware that the onboarding is important and they check what happens on day 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, whatever, how long it is. But then when I ask them, Okay, what about when the music stops? What's happening then? They're just like, Well, the programme ends. Sometimes I ask my clients about the testimonial, sometimes they fade away. What I like to do, and this is the most tactical part, is take at least two or three weeks before your programme or corporation is ending and book that one-on-one call, the next steps call, and create a three to six month plan, just the basic plan for your clients, regardless if they stay or not with you. But when you're creating that plan, they now are in a way taken care of, even if you're not working together, and offer them, Hey, I can keep on supporting you, implementing the next steps. And that's it. This is how in one of my programmes, this is what I did, and we got the retention increase by 30%, which is a lot. I think that's really important. I don't have a programme that is run for a specific period of time, like a rolling. But I do remember once I did a twelve-month programme, and I didn't anticipate what was going to happen at the end of the twelve months. It was such a big missed opportunity. And also knowing that it's going to come to an end, preparing for it, building sentiment for what's coming next, making sure people understand what their options are. It's so important. I think that's a really good suggestion. I think, and this is even when you don't have a fixed programme. So I have an ongoing rolling programme. Even then, when clients decide, Okay, it's time for me to move on, it's very tempting to say, Well, bye. But actually, how somebody leaves you is how they're going to leave a feeling. Exactly. It doesn't matter what their experience was the whole time. How they felt at the end is everything because that's what they're going to talk about. It's what they're going to remember. And I've often had clients at the end of working with me thinking, They're leaving because they hate me. When actually they're leaving because they were so happy with what they've got. They've got everything they wanted, and they're probably your strongest advocate. But if you don't leave them on good terms, they're just going to feel taken advantage of. So I think it's so important to be mature. Sorry to interrupt you. No, go ahead. I have to I have two examples which are really interesting. The first one is connected to your system because one of my nutritionists clients, he has the on rolling cooperation as well. And we've just implemented, let's say, the trigger, manual trigger, when someone says, Okay, I think I'm done now with the process. I just gave him... He created the three paths someone can take. Out of the last five conversations, two people said, Hey, I I want to continue down the third path. That's it simply because he offered. He offered less hands-on way. This is what clients felt that they needed. They just said, Hey, yeah, occasionally check-in call, but I want to stay with you. Normally, he wouldn't done that. The second thing is, one of my other clients, she got the best testimonial/cancelation email ever because the email started, I love you so much. She's a relationship coach. I love you so much because you helped me with this, with this, with this, with this, and that. It just feels complete. It was the best testimonial. But then the second part was it saying that. I really feel like at the moment, we don't have anything to work on And I know I'll be back when something else happens, but I feel really at peace, really good with myself, and that's it. So it's in a way bittersweet, but those are the best type of, let's call them, cancellation emails you could get. Yeah. Philipp, this has been great fun. If people want to get closer to you, if they want to find out more about you, what's the best way to do that? Where do you like to hang out online? Okay. I like to hang out on Substack. I love writing, so I've chosen the Substack, even though it's not the most obvious choice. Voice, so they can visit Client Flow sub stack. And basically, one of the first thing, if they sign up, they get a mini bonus, which is win-win strategies guide, where I went into a bit more depth into explaining how to map the micro and how to make sure that if they have upsells, the upsells are the natural next step for them. So they just need to sign up to the sub stack, where I write quickly at least three times. I will get in on that. Philipp, this It's just been so much fun. I think we're going to have to do this again sometime. But for now, thank you very much. Thank you for having me. This was really insightful as well, for me. So that does bring us to the end of another show. If you did enjoy this, then you will love the personal brand business roadmap. It's everything you need to start, scale, or fix your expert business. Again, if you did enjoy this show, I would encourage you to leave five star reviews wherever you listen. That's five. Count them. Philipp, you've been great. You were home. Thank you for listening. I'll see you next time.