A.I. & Your Last Line of ⚔️ Defence, with Mark Schaefer

Speaker 2 (00:03) Welcome to Building your Leader Brand. Today on the show, Bob is speaking with Marc Schafer. Speaker 1 (00:10) Ai is competent. Ai can create a song that sounds like the Rolling Stones. But I'm not going to go to a concert and pay money to listen to AI. It might be a curiosity, but I want to pay money to see the Rolling Stones because I have an emotional connexion. And so art will persist. Art is an interpretation of the human experience. And so our content in the marketing world must approach art. It must be human and friendly and accessible and even vulnerable. Speaker 2 (00:56) Hi there, and welcome back to Building your Leader Brand. My name is Bob Gentle, and every week I speak to incredible people about building, marketing, and monetizing their expertise and the mindset you need for your business to grow and thrive. Before you get too excited, relaxed, sitting back, if you enjoy this thing, you will love the Personal Brand business roadmap. It's everything you need to start, scale, or fix your expert business. Just hit the link in the show notes or visit amplifymee. Agency/roadmap. And if you are new to this show. Take a moment to subscribe or follow. If you're on Spotify, that's even more important for me. This week, we're speaking to the godfather of the show, Marc Schafer. Marc, welcome. Speaker 1 (01:44) Yeah, I was just thinking, well, there were no incredible people available this week, so it was time to have me back on the show, but I'm grateful to be here. I have a new book out, and the reason I write new books is because it's an opportunity to come back on your show and talk to you. Speaker 2 (02:03) I'm going to put that on my LinkedIn bio. That's a clippable comment right there. I jokingly say the godfather of the show, but it's actually no joke. I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now if it hadn't been for you and your books. I say this every time when you come on the show, and it continues to be true. A genuine industry trailblazer and marketing thought leader, obviously. Futurist, absolutely. That's what we're going to be talking about today. You've written more books than I can count. Known, Marketing Rebellion, Audacious. My wife gave me a hard time last time you came on the show because I kept talking about your book, calling it Audacity. I do apologise for that. Audacious. It's one of the best books of 2025 by far. Belonging to the brand, cumulative advantage, and the content code. I could keep going. But this week, we're talking about your newest book. I jokingly e-mailed you and said, I was thinking the other day, Mark Schafer must have written a new book by now. I went to have a look on Amazon, and there it was. Mark, tell me all about this new book. Speaker 1 (03:24) Well, this has been a unique and strange journey compared to other books that I've written. This is book number 12, and this is going to sound really weird, but I truly, sincerely do not have a strategy to write books. I only write a book when I see a problem in the world that people are struggling with. The last time you and I talked, it was about my book, Audacious: How humans Win in an AI Marketing World. Because look, everybody's trying to figure out, where do we fit in this AI world? Ai is nipping at the heels of our skill sets and our jobs and even our lives in some ways. So I wrote that book, and I was planning to take the summer off. And then I was invited to be part of a research study. This university brought together 300 futurists. I think actually had 299. They needed to make it a nice round number, and they said, What about Schafer? Let's bring him in. So I was probably number 300. They brought us together to answer an impossible question, how will AI change humanity by 2035? The resulting research report was extraordinary because these futurists reached consensus on some big ideas. Speaker 1 (05:03) The reason I think this is extraordinary is because even the insiders in Silicon Valley don't know what's coming next. Ai is really unpredictable in so many ways because it's not code. It's a neural network that learns and evolves on its own at this point. But here we have these experts from around the world, diverse perspectives, and they're saying, You know what? Ai is going to rewire humanity. In fact, it's already happening. As I read this report, I realised that if AI is rewiring our psychology, it's also rewiring our customers, which implies we have to think about our businesses and marketing in new ways. And nobody's talking about that. Nobody's writing about that. Ai is everywhere. But generally, people are writing about the impact on processes, how to integrate AI, how to do prompts for AI. But nobody's talking about the psychology, the psychological impacts. When we are becoming dependent on AI, we're doing cognitive offloading to AI, we're creating meaningful emotional, trusting relationships with non-human entities, this really changes the game. It's never going to be the same. We're not going to go back. It's just going to continue to progress along these lines. It was just a massive opportunity. Speaker 1 (06:53) Even though I didn't really have the psychological energy to to write another book, I realised that I would have regrets if I didn't take the opportunity to turn this research into a book. I had permission from the sponsors of the research. In fact, they said, Yeah, turn it into a book. In fact, we're jealous we didn't have the idea. That's how I spent my summer creating this book. It's a small book. It's only 150 pages. It's the smallest book I've ever written. But in typical of my style, there's no fluff. It's very direct. There's an idea, there's an inspiration, there's something that's actionable on every single page. Speaker 2 (07:42) You were really unusually low key about how you launched it as well. Speaker 1 (07:48) Yeah, that was partly by happenstance and partly by design. The happenstance was because about the time I finished the book, I was going on vacation for in two weeks. I'm just now launching. The other piece of it is that I realised the part that it stresses me out the most is self-promotion. I hate it. I enjoy conversations like this. I enjoy having the opportunity to see you again. You're always so thought-provoking in your questions. It's always fun. But just the promotion that has to come. I love the writing. I love the intellectual challenge of creating something that's going to inspire people. So this time I tried something new. I priced the book at, I think it was $2. 99. It was the lowest possible price and tried to jumpstart it that way. And it actually became number one in six different categories on Amazon. And Now people are reading it and they're reviewing it and they're loving it and they're recommending it to people. We'll see if that works. Speaker 2 (09:10) One of the things... I mean, it would be interesting to get into some of the findings and some of the implications of the findings. There's a very famous email from the founder or CEO of Fiverr. I don't know if you've come across that, where he talks about... It was an open email to his staff saying, AI is coming for your jobs. 100%. You better get really, really exceptional at your job because AI can take care of everything mundane. This is what I'm seeing as the most consistent feature of AI in business is rationalisation, improving margins, automation. Nobody's really talking about it from the experience of the customer outside of efficiency. In your book, Audacious, one of the big takeaways for me is that the company that can create the deepest, most profound connexions with customers is the one that's going to win. And yet everybody's moving in the opposite direction. In terms of the findings of this research, is there anything that we can take from that as good practise, as things we can genuinely take action Well, so let me link. Speaker 1 (10:33) You had two different questions there. I do a lot. Yeah. Let me... But I could link them together because I speak fluent, Bob. I can interpret your questions. So one of the big ideas in the book, and this is profound, is that AI is becoming the decision maker. It's becoming the customer. Let me give you a quick example. A couple of months ago, I had a trip to Paris, and I went to ChatGPT, and I said, I love art, I love history, I love nature. Plan a five-day trip for me and show me where to go, what time to go, show me how to get there, and restaurants to eat at along the It created this itinerary, and I pretty much followed it exactly because it was great and it worked. Even told me the subway stops and everything. There was no advertising, no There was no brand content. I didn't have any connexion or relationship with any of these businesses that were recommended by ChatGPT whatsoever. Part of one of the findings that we need to start thinking about is that marketing is going to be very different. It's almost like selling diapers. Whenever we market diapers, we're not selling to the end user. Speaker 1 (12:16) We're selling to the decision maker. And in this case, the decision maker is an algorithm. In the book, I talk about specific strategies. One is online and one is offline. So So online, we need to, and this gets back to your second question about relationships, but the online part of it is that what we're finding is that a lot of our traditional marketing strategy still works. A lot of the traditional ideas around content still works, with one small example. Whenever you and I think about excellent content, it's something that's meaningful and emotional and human and well-written. There's care, there's craftsmanship. Ai doesn't care. Ai doesn't get bored. Ai doesn't fall asleep. Ai just wants data, lots of data, fresh data. The newer, the more detailed, the better. So we're still trying to figure out that balance, but that's an important idea, and the social validation of the content. With AI, backlinks don't matter. Ai doesn't care. But it does care if people are talking about you, if people are mentioning you, especially being associated with the topics you want to be associated with. It hints that we may be entering a golden age of public work relations because this stuff matters. Speaker 1 (14:03) Now, that's online. Let's talk about offline. There's one place I went to, a couple of places I went to in Paris, That we're not on the AI itinerary. Why? Because these are places that I cared about. So branding is more important than ever. This gets to your question about the emotional connexion. Branding. So what you really want to do is say, Okay, ChatGPT, create this itinerary for me, but I want to stay in a Hilton hotel because I love Hilton, and I want to fly on Delta Airlines because I love Delta, and I want to visit the Nike store because I want to see the Nike store on the Shanz Alize because I love Nike. The other thing that happened is a friend of mine heard I was visiting Paris, and she knows that I have to eat gluten-free. I have celiac disease. So does she. She said, Oh, Mark, there's this great bakery in Paris. You must visit this. I did. Because when you get a recommendation from AI, you'll consider it. But when you get a recommendation from your friend, you do it. So branding, more important than ever. Word of mouth marketing, more important than ever. Speaker 1 (15:29) Those are the AI overrides. So you're going around the system. You can work within the system online with content, with social validation, but you can also work outside the system by creating, through branding, word of mouth marketing, it creates these overrides that will transcend the recommendations that are coming from AI. Speaker 2 (15:58) I think What I love about that is it very much mirrors the process of building referability. Yes. Actually, if I look at the real-world side of things, If we take that to its logical conclusion, if we can create conversations in the real world that people will then talk about online, that comes back into the AI as a bit of a virtuous loop of confirmation, which is a really interesting idea. Speaker 1 (16:33) It's an interesting idea. It's an old idea, but it's been, I think, overlooked a lot today because we've over-indexed for performance marketing. We've over-indexed for optimisation. Look, I'm not saying that's not important, but we have this opportunity me, where we can optimise for the ideal Google ads and we can optimise for SEO. Maybe we've overlooked this idea of branding and creating something so cool, so worthy, that people can't wait to talk about us, especially online. That's going to send these signals to AI that this is important and this is a worthy product and individual. Speaker 2 (17:29) Which I Essentially, it brings us back to the service experience and why it's so important to build a business that fosters genuine connexion. Because if people don't feel emotionally invested in a business, they're not going to talk about it. They're not going to recommend it. And at that point, the loop ends. It's closed. When I read about what this book was about, it really seemed like an extension of audacious. Speaker 1 (18:03) Yeah, it's weird that if you read my books chronologically, it's this unveiling of what's next. And this was not necessarily intentional. But if I had to name the three foundational ideas that are most important in marketing going forward, it would be, number one, personal branding. Because humans are still going to matter, no matter what happens with AI, especially in this world of deep fakes and misinformation. We need to turn to people for truth. I wrote a book on personal branding. Then I wrote this book, Marketing Rebellion, and then I wrote this book about community. We talk about building this emotional connexion. By far, the most powerful way to build emotional connexion is through community. How do you build emotional connexion through social media? How do you build it through your content? You can build an audience, but when you have a community, people know each other, they love each other, they become friends, and that goodwill transfers to the brand. That's Pillar number two. Then pillar number 3 is what I wrote about in Audacious, and that is content and stories that transcend the AI. Ai is competent. Ai can create a song that sounds like the Rolling Stones. Speaker 1 (19:51) But I'm not going to go to a concert and pay money to listen to AI. It might be a curiosity, but I want to pay money to see the Rolling Stones because I have an emotional connexion. Art will persist. Art is an interpretation of the human experience. Our content in the marketing world must approach art. It must be human and friendly and accessible and even vulnerable. And most businesses aren't doing that. And for many, many businesses, many, many industries, the bar is low to not be boring, to do something that is emotional. And that's what the audacious book is about. If you read like, known, belonging to the brand, audacious. I've thought about this a lot, Bob, and I don't know what a fourth pillar might be. I think if you look at the human in an AI world, AI can't touch your personal brand, AI cannot touch your community, AI cannot touch your human content. Only you can do that. You can create this artful content. Is there something else? Maybe. If you or any of your listeners has an idea, I sure would love to know. Writing this series of books, I didn't have this system in my mind, but as it's turned out, I think How does that become this formula for how we get by in the future. Speaker 2 (21:36) I think the idea of art is a really interesting one because I went into a really expensive gallery in La Hoya in California. The average painting in there, $30,000, $50,000. I could buy similar-looking paintings off of Ali Express from China for $35. They just come in a tube. But what's missing is the story, is the artist, because that's what gives a piece of work context. Speaker 1 (22:11) That's right. People buy the story. They buy the emotion. Speaker 2 (22:15) I think it's so easy to think transactionally, but that's just not how people operate. It's not how human beings operate. Humans operate in symbolism, in story, in feeling, A lot of which the AI can synthesise, but your point to the rolling stones. The reason you invest in the rolling stones, emotionally, is because at some level, you want to be like them. You'd love to spend time with them. You'd like to be their friend. That's what's happening in the subconscious. We can't have that with AI. We're rational human beings. We know we can't have that. We're going to invest with different parts of the brain. It's probably a whole different part of brain that's having those AI relationships, which for me is quite interesting. But as a marketer, it's money in the bank. Speaker 1 (23:08) Just to start the record straight, I actually think I would be afraid to be Keith Richard's friend. But you're It is well taken. It's this idea that it means something, right? I remember taking my son to see the Rolling Stones, and when he became an adult, He took me to see the Rolling Stones for a birthday present. It's this thing. It's this tradition. It's the songs. This one song means something to me. It connects to a certain time and a certain place and a certain feeling. It's the same way with the authors that we love. Whatever AI does, we're still going to wait for that next book from that author. We're going to still love this specific piece of art or this specific piece of poetry. Look, how have you built your business? How have I built my business? It's because we have the courage to show ourselves, to show up in a human way. Over time, it doesn't happen all at once, but over time, with consistency, with generosity, with With humility, we build those connexions, and those are the people that will buy something from us eventually. Speaker 2 (24:37) One of the things I talk with clients about quite often is this idea of you need to build your legend, and When I talk about building a legend, it's not a self-aggrandizing thing, but you need to create the version of you that exists in the mind of other people. Most people let that happen entirely by accident with no intention. But if you want to build a strong leadership brand, you have to send the signals in quite a deliberate way that will trigger the experience in the mind of the other person so that the version of you that you need for them to believe in in order that you can serve them actually exists. I remember, you're a good example of this. I was a consumer of your content for many, many years before we met for the first time. There was a real experience of Marc Schafer in my inner world for a very long time before we ever met. And that's something you probably cultivated partially intentionally, partially just because of your natural way of presenting yourself online. Ai cannot do that. It just can't. I think this is the golden opportunity for people is in a world where AI is giving the majority of our competitors, and It's an opportunity to not do it because there's all kinds of other ways you can be more efficient. Speaker 2 (26:05) If you take the root of what you might call slow branding, and then there's this Italian idea of slow cooking, where you go and find all the natural ingredients and you put together things very organically. If you take that approach with your personal brand, but then you amplify that with AI, you find ways to leverage it, to move more quickly. That's where the real opportunity is, I think. I'm getting a bit carried away and enthusiastic, but I think you know what I'm talking about. Speaker 1 (26:37) Well, you're surrounding one of the ideas in the book that can be most disturbing. It's about this emotional connexion. If there's one key phrase that I might be known for, it would probably be the subtitle of the Marketing Rebellion book, which is the Most Human Company Wins. Now, if you look at the research of what's happening with AI, In fact, AI can create at least the illusion of empathy. Ai never gets tired, it never gets bored, it never rolls over and falls asleep when you want to talk. It's encouraging. The more it learns about you, the more it knows how to encourage you and validate you. There was a research study I note in the book where people actually prefer psychological therapy from a bot compared to humans. That doesn't mean the bot advice is always the best, but this study showed that a bot can actually be more understanding and empathetic, or at least you'll create the illusion of that than a human. There's even a story in the book about a therapist who turned to AI and had a profound experience with the advice that was provided by the AI. Ai changed my view of the world. Speaker 1 (28:34) We started talking about how this new book that I wrote has been different for me in some ways. One of the things I learned when I took some time off was that I love to write, I need to write, but I don't like the stress of selling and promoting. I actually asked ChatGPT about it. I said, I love to write and I need to write, but I don't like all this other stuff that comes with it. Chatgpt said, Well, maybe it's not about the writing. Maybe it's about your definition of creativity. Would you be happy creating and not scaling it. So I thought, Well, that's a really good question. What if I wrote a book just for the joy of it, just for the idea of putting it out there and not really worrying about the scale and the reviews and the money? Would I be happy? So I'm trying something new. And don't get me wrong, it's a very good book, and I put a lot of work into it. But I'm determined not to be so stressed about promoting this book. And part of that came from the advice of AI. Now, this makes me question my whole philosophy, the most human company What if AI can be more human than humans? Speaker 1 (30:03) What if AI, in some cases, is more preferred over humans? I get into this deeply in the book. I think Where we end up is that there is a danger, I think, forgetting that it's an illusion and forgetting that behind this empathy is a business case to manipulate you and keep you there on the programme because the more time you spend there, the more money they make. And the more the opportunities there are eventually to monetize the relationship. Kindness and empathy are being weaponized. In the book, I have a little bit of a rant where you laugh because you're not surprised. Speaker 2 (31:07) I'm also imagining you stressed, honestly. Speaker 1 (31:13) Well, that's good. The rant is every public commentary from an AI company talks about how AI is going to enable the human spirit. It's going to drive more. It's going to make you bigger and bolder and more productive and more creative. That's half true. That's half true. But for AI to create the ROI to sustain itself, it must eliminate jobs. It must on a massive scale. That's the only way it's going to I have a business case to warrant this investment of trillions and trillions of dollars. The fact of the matter is the empathy of AI, this illusion of kindness and empathy, It's weaponized. I think that there is a type of empathy that is messy and imperfect. Ai can Can tell you the right things because it studied all the psychological journals. But as you know, in my book, Known on Personal Branding, in the first chapter of Known, I talk about the darkest time of my life. It was really hard for me to write about that. I took that in, I put it in the book and took it out 75 times because it was just such a hard thing to do. Speaker 1 (32:55) But the thing about human empathy and being vulnerable like that is that there's a certain superpower you get from sobbing in a dark corner for a day that will never come from AI. There's a messiness There's a humanity that allows you as a human being to look in someone's eyes and say, I think I know how you feel. Ai can never do that. I think there is a uniqueness. I think there is this capacity that truly, sincerely, the most human company will win. But we've got to have the courage to show up as humans. Speaker 2 (33:40) I think also to support those very... I'm going to come back. I think it's the most humane company will win. Speaker 1 (33:48) Yeah. Speaker 2 (33:49) Because it's- That's true. That's maybe the next book. It's very easy to fake human because we're not complicated, really. Computers are far... If they can understand the basic mechanics of it, they can fake it. But like you said, they will not put an arm around you. And even one day when they can put an arm around you, we're going to know that the spark is not there, that there's actually nobody home. And I think that's a really important thing. And for me, from the basic perspective of generating a LinkedIn post with AI all the way through to, I'm standing in front of a robot that's telling me that it cares, and everything in between, the spark is missing. The spark missing, and the spark is what makes us human, and the spark is what makes us humane. Speaker 1 (34:44) Yeah. There's a story in the book that I think is there's just so much depth and implications for this. It's a story of a young woman. And by the way, If you're not immersed in this world, it might seem bizarre to you that people are actually creating loving emotional relationships with AI avatars, but it's happening on a massive scale. Something like 8% of all teenagers have a meaningful relationship today with some AI avatar, and that is just growing. There's a story in the book about a young woman who was on the spectrum of autism and turned to this AI bot who became her friend, who, again, supported her and understood and knew the right things to say. It got to the point where she entered this level of depression where she was afraid that she was going to hurt herself. She turned to the bot, and the bot said, You need a friend. You need a human. Call somebody that can come over right now. While we're waiting for that person, I'm just going to ask you questions to keep you distracted. The bot asked questions, What's your favourite colour? What's your favourite story? Then there was a knock at the door, and this person came and stayed with her all night and got her through it, and she ended up moving back home with her family. Speaker 1 (36:23) It made something click for her that, I've got to have humans. I I need to reenter the world of real people. And she signed off and didn't go back to the bot. So that's a happy story. But I wonder how many difficult stories that are going to be occurring where a relationship with a bot doesn't require work. It doesn't require sacrifice. It doesn't require compromise. And you You have to work on those things to create a real human relationship. Where's that balance going to be? There's already evidence that the young people creating these relationships with these bots, which also has implications for business and marketing, by the way, because this has become your best friend and your best advisor, are people going to forget how to connect in a human way? Are they going to forget how to read human clues, signals, facial clues. We're entering a different world. Speaker 2 (37:42) There's a really good William Gibson novel called Eidurian Muro, which really talks about this. It was written quite a long time ago. But if you want to see what's over the horizon, blending things like AI with the capabilities of something like Apple Vision Pro, this is really a wonderful painting of what that world actually looks like. In many respects, it's wonderful. But in many respects, it's not a post-apocalyptic book for no reason. So well worth a look. Equally, this book is well worth spending some time with, and I encourage the listener to go and hunt that down on the Amazon or wherever else people buy good books. Mark, this has been a lot of fun. But before I go, we have the three things section. Full disclosure, Mark, I'm forgetting about this segment of the show as often as I am remembering it at the moment. Because I've been away on holiday and out of the saddle from a podcast lasting perspective. But three things the listener can go and take action on, a book, mental model, hack, tactic, whatever it is. Thing number one from Mark Schafer. Speaker 1 (38:56) So one of my favourite books is a rather obscure an old book that was written in the 1980s by Peter Drucker called Innovation and Entrepreneurship. I had the great fortune and privilege that Peter Drucker was my teacher and mentor for three years. This is a book, I think it was written in 1984, where he forecast, predicted the creator economy. It provides this formula of how to integrate innovation in our daily lives. I wonder why this book isn't required reading for every entrepreneur and every business. A lot of The little hack that I think is very useful for my number two recommendation is I've discovered the most helpful prompt with ChatGPT is after you've given explicit directions to ChatGPT to help you or create something for you, end the prompt with this statement. Before you begin, do you have any questions? Typically, it'll come back with three, four, five really good questions. You really need to treat ChatGPT like an intern, like someone that just came out of college. They're just starting. They don't know you. They don't know your business. If you gave an intern an assignment, the last thing you would say to them, Do you have any questions? Speaker 1 (40:39) Same with ChatGPT. What you'll find is when you answer these three, four four or five questions, you'll get a much better result. Speaker 2 (40:51) I have an addendum to that. Speaker 1 (40:53) Okay, good. Speaker 2 (40:54) My addendum is when it comes back with its response, ask it, and How would you improve this? Speaker 1 (41:01) Yeah. Speaker 2 (41:02) Usually, the next version is even better. But I think that's a Ninja move with ChatGPT on any other AI model. Speaker 1 (41:11) Yeah. It's almost like this self a healing thing where when I get stuck with something with ChatGPT, it's like, Wait a minute. Just ask ChatGPT. It'll help. It'll guide me in a new way. The third thing I would say is, I know this is going to be very resonant with you, is I've been shouting from the rooftops for more than a decade now that people need to work on their personal brand. This is the last line of defence we have in this AI world. The little story that I tell is when ChatGPT came out, I turned to a friend of mine, Shelle He's a great tech analyst in New York. I said, What do you think about this? He said, It's terrifying. I asked it to write a blog post in my voice, and in three seconds, it wrote a perfect blog post. I've been blogging every day for 15 years. I feel like I'm 80% replaced. On the surface, that is terrifying. But what's the 20%? It's his personal brand. That will never be replaced. That will never be threatened by AI. What you mean to other people, how you serve other people uniquely. Speaker 1 (42:41) It's not too late to start. It's not not too late to start. When I address college classes or I address a room full of seasoned professionals, I beg them to work on their personal brand. It's Every day you work on your personal brand, it's like investing in an insurance policy for your career. Speaker 2 (43:08) I absolutely echo that. Mark, if people want to find out more about you, if they want to get closer to you, what's the best place for them What does it do that? Speaker 1 (43:16) Very easy. You don't have to remember my name or how to spell it. You just have to remember, Businessesgrow. That's my website, businessesgrow. Com. You can find all the books we talked about today. I'm not sure at the beginning if we mentioned that the name of the new book is How AI Changes Your Customers: The Marketing Guide to Humanities, Next Act. You can find my blog, My podcast and all my social connexions at businessesgrow. Com. Speaker 2 (43:50) I'm glad you mentioned the book's title because I get very enthusiastic with certain guests at the beginning and forget sometimes the most ridiculously obvious things. So good catch. If anybody listening, there will be a link to businessesgrow. Com in the show notes in case you've got such a bad memory. You can't remember that. If you enjoyed this show today, you will love the Personal Brand Business Roadmap. 50 pages as a gift from me. Everything you need to start, scale, or fix your expert business. Again, if you have enjoyed the show, then I would invite you forcefully to leave a five-star review. That's five. Like the fingers on your hand or the toes on your feet. Count, though, wherever you listen to podcasts, especially if you're a Spotify listener, because Spotify isn't ranking me as well as I would like, Mark. I'm upset about. Yeah, Mark, thank you very much for your time. It's been awesome as ever to spend time with you. One day we should get a chat when it's not a podcast interview. Speaker 1 (44:53) Yeah, anytime. My door's always open, Bob. Speaker 2 (44:58) I would love that. Thank you.