The little voice keeping you from your dreams, with Clare Josa

Hi there, welcome back to amplify the digital marketing entrepreneurs podcast. I'm Bob Gentle. And every week I'm joined by creators, consultants and practitioners who share what makes their business work. Whether you run your own business, or you're just thinking of stepping out on your own for the first time, you're in the right place. If you're new to the podcast and welcome along, just take a second now to subscribe in your podcast player, so you don't miss new weekly episodes. And you continue to some older ones when you finish this one. Welcome along again also to new Facebook group members David and Sergey. Don't forget to introduce yourself. And if you're new to the show, you will want to join our Facebook group. Just search amplify insiders and Facebook and you'll find us easily this week my guest is clear yourself. Now Claire may not fit the profile of an obvious amplify guest but you're very quickly find out why I wanted to have her on the show.

You're one of the 95% regularly encounter imposter syndrome and get ready for some serious revelations. So welcome along. And let's be clear.

So Claire, you are so welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for making the time for me. Thank you, Bob. It's lovely to be here.

I honestly with most guests, I've got questions with you. I have an absolute bucket of them. But before I dive into that, why don't we start with you just telling us a little bit about who you are, where you are and the kind of work you do? Yeah, well, I'm a reformed engineer. So I studied mechanical engineering because I wanted to know how car engines worked. I spent 10 years in the engineering industry specializing in lean manufacturing, and I was one of the first people in Europe to qualify and six sigma. And there came a point where I realized I was much more passionate about figuring out how people take rather than engines and I made the leap. I

studied, I retrained, went travelling for a year as you do. And I came back and was head of market research at Dyson for a while setting up their basically their research function being that communicated between the engineers, the marketing teams and the customers absolutely loved it. But the more I studied things like NLP and other modalities, I realized I wanted to make a bigger difference in the world and I could work into someone else. So in 2003, I gave up a very good job set up my own business, very steep learning curve.

And I i specialized in leadership development for corporate companies, particularly working with their senior leaders, who were struggling despite being outwardly successful. And I quickly realized they all have the same symptoms. And it took me about three years to realize it had a name, and it was imposter syndrome. And that's really one of the things I've special

Then for the last 15 years, when I had my kids, I did less corporate work and work much more with entrepreneurs in the online world. So I can juggle and balance that. And now I'm back to probably doing 75% working with corporate clients and business leaders and 25% working with people who are looking to change the world through the business.

Brilliant, that's a really great, succinct

recap of your career. And to be honest, I don't think people possibly realize how big a deal it was to leave Dyson when you did. Yeah. Because they were they were really the company to work for the most definitely. You know, and certainly at that point time, I was part of a key part of the USA launch, so had just launched out there. When you see things like the ball back in the hand dry I was in the Monday morning meetings every week with James and his head engineer. And we would sit there and look at the design ideas from the previous week and decide what got to live for another week.

Which was thrilling and you know, it was really

really helpful. There was one point where James didn't want to hear what I was saying. And he and I ended up going head to head having a rail about talk curves on diesel engine fuel injection pumps. And at that point, I think he realized that actually, I was worth listening to.

But yeah, it's it was a very dynamic business and setting up on my own. If I knew what I know, now, I would have handled it very differently. But hey, it comes out in the wash. And that was 16 years ago, and I'm still going. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you are. Because we're here today talking about imposter syndrome. Yeah. And I think a lot of people listening to the podcast probably don't realize I get emails literally every single day saying, Can I come on your podcast, I'm a coach.

And there is a 95% failure rate on that I don't really want to expose my audience,

to coaches because they don't really need what most people have to offer. But if I look at where most people struggle

In terms of my audience, which is largely small and solo people working on the digital marketing spectrum, imposter syndrome is a universal problem completely. And it's an issue for me, it's a huge issue for me.

And you've just published a book

and an international research study that came out last month, because there wasn't any in depth UK based research. And culturally in the UK, we do handle imposter syndrome different to, for example, people in the USA.

And either I'm really glad you've raised the point, Bob, about how widespread This is. So I was giving a talk at the London branch of the Institute of directors yesterday. And one of the people I was on stage with came to see me in the coffee break and said, You know what, every time I speak at an event like this, I feel like an imposter. I look at who else is on stage. They'll be a professor. They'll be a head of industry. They'll be

A partner from a major consulting company and I think Who am I to be here, they all know more than me. And I dread he said, a little bit of me dies inside, whenever I do an event like this, because I think this might be the time they find me out. Now here's the thing. I had watched him speak, and thought he was confident and he inspired me and he had this genius for taking a horrifically complex topic, and making it so that people could understand and scribble notes. That's always my sign with the speakers. People are scribbling notes and nodding their head. But he was hiding imposter syndrome. That meant every time he did something that was clearly within his zone of genius. It came at a huge cost to him. And, you know, obviously, I did the blue piece of his when I prepared earlier, and he left with the book. And we're going to chat next week. But the thing is that nobody outside of his head would have had a clue and we all think we're the only one that feels like this. And that means we beat ourselves up about the fact we're beating ourselves up.

I think another thing, because I've been thinking about this a lot, knowing that I was going to speak to you is that the comfort zone and imposter syndrome have a lot in common that I remember when I first got into business imposter syndrome was a big problem. But then over time, it kind of disappeared. But as soon as you try and reach up and reach out and do better I do bigger is right there back again. So you can think that it's gone. But all that's telling you is actually you've settled? Yeah, that's definitely a very, very common trait. So I know from experience, I've had to ditch imposter syndrome to be able to write a book with a title along those lines, so that I could actually have some credibility. And what I find is the huge number of people when they hear about the book, they're like, Well, what do you mean I can ditch it? This is like forever, isn't it? And actually, all that happens is we develop new coping mechanisms that as you say, Bob, we stretch the comfort zone to the next level. Those coping strategies don't work anymore.

imposter syndrome comes out to play again, when you've got to when you've taken the time to clear out the triggers to understand what it is that's causing imposter syndrome for you and you've really released that stuff. It doesn't need to play a role anymore. So, for example, I've been asked to do something that's a long way outside the comfort zone. And I had an imposter syndrome thought, Oh, my goodness, who am I to do that? Because I know who else they've asked. And oh, yeah. Now, when I was running imposter syndrome that would have turned into a negative spiral that would have caused me not to return the calls not to reply to the emails, maybe even This is big confession. So you're the only person that knows this, Bob, even to suggest somebody else who might be better. convincing myself I'm doing them a favor. Okay. What happened to me yesterday, when those thoughts came up, was I immediately went, Oh, yeah, that's an imposter syndrome though. Okay. So what does this thought want me to know? And actually, they've asked

me to do this specific area, which I'm more than qualified to do, and I know that I can really fulfill what they're asking. And it's great because there is going to be somebody that knows a lot more about the adjacent area than me. And I think I might learn something. I like that idea of what is this thought want me to know? That's quite a neat way of looking at it. Yeah. So I didn't need to go through that whole involuntary imposter syndrome response. I caught the thought in my head. It's an imposter syndrome though. What's the message?

I think

the I think about introverts and extroverts quite a lot. And I know that's a very, very simplistic way of breaking people down, because I know some very confident, outgoing people who would sort of self described as introverts.

And I think you're not an introvert and I was thinking about that a lot recently.

What I realized is, introvert does not equal shy Absolutely not.

I'm one of the biggest introverts. I know.

Okay, but you're not a shy person. No, absolutely not. So I adore meeting people I do finding out how they tick.

You know, yesterday when they say right, Claire, it's time to wake you up. I'm like, Well, I gotta go back on stage. I gotta go see those light bulbs. I get to see those heads nodding. I adore that. But you make me stay for coffee afterwards and I want to hide under a table because I have a certain amount of people energy that I can use each day. Yeah. And when that amount is used up, I have my emergency reserves. And when they used up I get a three day migraine.

Okay, so I have to recharge my batteries at home in quiet with a good book. My family's allowed to say hello. But multi day conferences. I have to build up my people energy by having no people stuff in my in my diary for three days before three days afterwards. That's how strong an introvert I am and going out and doing

socializing at these events once I'm there, I love it. But it comes at a cost. I would much rather be back in my hotel room with room service reading a decent book or listening to an audiobook to top up those batteries. So what I do now is I actually really upfront with people at big events like that. And I'll actually say, you know what, this lunch break, I'm actually going to go and hide in my room for half an hour and top up my people batteries. And what I find is people going, I can't you have a good idea. I need to do that, too. Yeah, I think that's something that I do. Quite often. There's a dip in and out of crowds. Yeah, I think someone I would like to go with you, if I may, is when you're in sort of large crowds of people. And especially if you're speaking imposter syndrome will ring the bell really loud.

But where I think it probably holds back a lot of my audience is when it comes to content marketing, okay? Because if you want to build a strong

personal brand that asks of you to be

to present as an extrovert, really.

So when it comes to things like video marketing, in particular imposter syndrome will always come knocking.

Now, I noticed in your book and obviously I haven't read it yet, so I'm gonna put my hand up because it's literally brand new. Oh, how exciting. Thank you. I haven't read it yet, but I will. But you, you speak about five strategies.

Are you able to sort of unpack that a little bit for me, obviously not giving away the whole game? Absolutely. Absolutely. So over the last 15 years, I've obviously developed processes that help my clients and you don't want to reinvent the wheel each time. And I realized they fit really well into a five step process. And the first of those five steps is actually about that awareness of this is imposter syndrome. me This is more than self doubt.

This goes down to the identity level. This is about who I see myself as being. And I call it the imposter syndrome gap. It's that gap between who you think you are, and who you think you need to be in order to create or achieve something. So step one is about realizing it is imposter syndrome. I'm running it. So I talked about running it not having it, because if you have it, it means you might want to hold on to it. If you're running it is literally just a pattern in your thoughts, that triggers responses. And then it's clearing out the myths that keep us stuck. You know, like, it's inevitable, it's incurable. It's a sign that I'm a high achiever. It's I need that fear to perform, and starting to imagine life without it. So the whole of step one when I'm working with someone is about how will life be when you no longer run imposter syndrome. Because if you can imagine it, you can create it but your mind won't let you make a change that it believes is impossible. And then the second thing

That is taming your inner critic. Because imposter syndrome is always triggered by a thought. So I teach people how to press pause on that inner critic so they can actually choose which thoughts to feed and start rewiring, then urology. So those autopilot responses stand down. Then we look at the limiting beliefs and the blocks and the fears and the excuses and clear those out in step three. And this is where most people stop on their personal development work, which is why imposter syndrome comes back to bite you on the backside. When, as you described, Bob, you stretch your comfort zone or you go into situation, it's highly stressful. As we move into Step four, which is where you actually go that layer deeper and look at which of the masks I've put on, to hide, to protect myself to pretend to be somebody I'm not, where am I being less than who I really am. And where am I actually shutting down and shutting people out and you clue things out at that layer and then

That leaves people feeling pretty good. But I like to take people to great as they Step five is looking at how can I become a leader I was born to be, how can I be truly resilient to life's knocks rather than that kind of bounce back resilience so you become more immune to other people's behavior and opinions? How can I express the mission that I have the reason I'm running my business or running my career? How can I express that more fully through the work that I'm doing in a way that you actually feel semi invincible, and you really get to show up with that true deep confidence that gives others permission to trust you and feel confident in themselves to? I think what you've done that is really distill a simple, easy to understand, easy to follow process.

Honestly, I think there are probably lots of other books written about an imposter syndrome. I think they probably the whole book would have been taken up by

trying to explain those five steps as you've done.

That's a really really neat, easy to imagine.

Effective sounding is obviously haven't done it yet process. I'm quite excited by that I will read the book now. I can't wait actually, when we meet up soon you'll have to let me know which light bulbs you've got and and also, when we read a book, because a book is designed to be what I call pajama ready. So it needs to work for somebody at 11 o'clock at night after a long day with a cup of cocoa in their PJs. Rather than with the author. They're explaining things. There were bits in the book that you already know. And they'll be bits in the book that you might find yourself resisting. And what I found, I mean, this is my eighth book. What I found over the years is the bits we resist are actually where the gems are. So if there's an exercise that we're like, oh, I don't want to do that when I just skip it. That's probably the exercise that will create a breakthrough for you.

Yeah, I can see that and I see that quite often in books that there's bits that I avoid because they sound like a lot of work.

And you're absolutely right. And I think for so many people, this is such an important breakthrough. Because success, the success that you really imagine you want, it always lies outside the comfort zone. And

getting there. The imposter syndrome is such a standard barrier. That if you can, if you can break it down, or even break it down, just understand it and burn through it, set yourself.

Absolutely. So the research study I've just done, it showed heartbreaking levels of imposter syndrome amongst entrepreneurs. So, those who said they were struggling daily or regularly with imposter syndrome, and that it was directly affecting their business was 82%.

Say 82% and as you've described, Bob, as you get more confident in your business, more established your incomes more regular, and you've got your processes in place, it can go down and then it meets

general level for the population was around 50%. But entrepreneurs struggle more with imposter syndrome than any other sector of the population. And what people described as it was things like not returning that call, leaving it slightly too late to pitch, not going for that PR opportunity, discounting your prices without being asked, not having clear client boundaries over giving too much free stuff and wondering why people don't want to pay. And this classic model I discovered through the research that helps you spot if you're running imposter syndrome, would you like me just to whip through that? Please do, okay? It's really easy to remember it's called the four Ps of imposter syndrome. So the first one is perfectionism, which we all know, it's the oh my goodness, that was a brilliant one hour webinar. I just did but there was a typo on slide 34 and somebody just pointed it out to me therefore I'm not good enough. Yeah.

AP for perfectionism. The next one is procrastination.

entrepreneurs, because we don't have a CEO, we indulge that at double the rate of the general population. Yeah. And if you're looking at things like content marketing, then of course, social media can become a wonderful place to procrastinate because we convince ourselves, we're adding value. And it's important and we've got to be there. And we can also procrastinate by creating content that doesn't actually allow us to move somebody forward in the sales process. Yeah, so this is another form of procrastination is we, we fill our time with business. And then we're exhausted and overwhelmed. Because that stress response from imposter syndrome is making us subconsciously self sabotage. So that second P is procrastination. I've got that T shirt. Yeah.

I think there are people around the world with headphones in.

And it's great when you when you know you're running these patterns. What's brilliant is you can call yourself out and

Oh, that was imposter syndrome. And I'll make sure I give everybody my ABC technique before we finish Bob so that they got something they can do with it. And the third P is paralysis. So paralysis is where you hide from a task for as long as you can, it drops off your to do list every day, you start feeling more and more guilty. And it's, you know, you come out in that cold sweat when you think about it. And then you use the adrenaline rush and fear of a deadline to force your way through it and end up pulling an all nighter. Yeah, I literally have my head in my hands. You can stop talking. This is cool. And the final one, which is a really big one for entrepreneurs, is people pleasing. So this is another stress response. So it's autonomic, which means that it happens without our control when it happens and we can stop it. But it's not something we think hey, I'm going to people please to feel better. In the entrepreneurial world, that is the discounting that is the over giving. That is

Too many freebies that is the wanting to be nice volunteering, you know, all of the things that we do that actually a lot of gurus tell us we have to do. But they're forgetting that it works for them because they've already got food in the fridge. And if we're still at the food in the fridge and shoes on the kids stage, we actually need to top up our own financial batteries before we get super, super generous with our tribe. So those are the four P's.

Wow.

I have a lot to think about.

And with all of these, the little trick you can use if you catch yourself doing the perfectionism, the procrastination, the paralysis the people pleasing, is you just ask yourself, what's my intention behind taking this action? And then ask your body not your mind for the answer. So this is a really important technique. Our thoughts affect the biochemistry in the body that also then triggers our emotions and they then feed the thoughts

If you ask the body, what's my intention, the body will either relax or contract. And if you feel the body flinching trying to get smaller or the stomach clenching or your jaw clenching or your eyes tightening, it means that your intention behind the action is fear based.

If it relaxes, your intention behind that action is actually healthy and positive.

And then you can just ask yourself, so Okay, what is it I'm scared of? That's making me do this behavior and that awareness, whatever the answer isn't, it might sound totally crazy, meet that need in a healthier way and you don't need imposter syndrome.

I think I have some notes here that I made before we started speaking and I had the word introvert and imposter syndrome, but I also had the words shyness, vanity, selfishness and narcissism. I hope they weren't my characteristics.

But these are some of the things that I thought

We're going on that would play alongside pastor Central. Yeah. But actually they're all wrapped up together they are. And you put that together so well, thank you. Well, you know, shyness, it can be a lack of confidence. It can also be we just need to interact with people in a different way to the norms. Yeah. And vanity, this is a really good one. I'm glad you've raised it because a lot of people say they need to hold on to imposter syndrome, because it keeps them humble. And actually, what keeps us humble is being a decent human being with good levels of self awareness. Yeah, we don't need something that causes us massive pain, and causes us to self sabotage our dreams to keep us humble. That's something that is independent of that.

Yeah, and actually, people don't like breaking through, it's painful. It is much easier to just sit with your imposter syndrome and settle. Absolutely. But you see, the thing is, I often have chats with the 80 year old me, okay. And if I've got an

A big decision, I'll go and have a chat with me on my 80th birthday and just ask her I know that sounds crazy, but it's a really good technique. It's just imagining you're at that birthday party surrounded by your loved ones. You've just set off the fire alarms with the candles in the restaurant. And you just ask the eight year old you What advice would you give me right now? You know which of these options do I need to choose? Actually, do they make any difference? And by taking that perspective, so anybody listening to this in their 80s, pick whatever age you want to be on now, but having that perspective, that benefit of decades of hindsight takes us out of the emotional turmoil. And it gives us a level of clarity. That means we can see what's driving the games we play in the mind stories that we're telling ourselves. So it might be that we're using shyness to protect ourselves. Great. So what do I need to shift about how I see myself as being or who, how I want to show up in public that allows me to still feel safe, but to be a

was a connect with people more deeply? Does it mean at a conference that I need to be the person in the side room rather than in the main coffee room? Having deeper conversations, for example? Yeah, does it mean I need to find out who's going to be there in advance and connect with them and get to know them and have this mental list of right here at 10 people I want to have a cup of tea with by the end of this conference, and anybody else is a bonus. Say that perspective can really help us with that to set ourselves free from those stress response behaviors.

That's really, really helpful. I think we're I'd like to pivot a little bit now. Because you're not sort of you don't typically work on the digital marketing spectrum, but you actually do. So what I'd like to do now is just unpack this is often Sandra, I'd like to unpack your back end.

Because you've written a book. Yeah. And a book is often sitting at the tip of the iceberg of a business and the tip of the spear. If you like,

And

I'm curious to know, obviously, for anybody listening that may want to engage with your ecosystem in one way or another.

But I two questions. I would like to understand the process of writing your book, because you've done this a few times now. Yeah. But also, how are you planning in advance with the business that's going to wrap around that looks like, I'm so glad you've raised that. Because what normally happens is, I will come across an entrepreneur gang, I'm three quarters of the way through my book, tell me how I have a really successful launch. And I always upset them a bit saying congratulations and well done. And that shows real dedication, you're an action taker, you actually need to start your launch planning before you start writing.

And that is not a time thing. That is because the very first stage is writing the book that your dream reader is hungry to read rather than the one you want to write.

And there will be a number of books that fall into that category. So your next

is to look at, well, which of those books is going to get somebody my perfect client ready to work with me. So, one of my drivers between ditching behind ditching imposter syndrome as a book was I wanted to give people something self contained, that if they're motivated, and they like to take action, and frankly, sitting at home and reading is their preferred way of learning and changing their life that is complete in and of itself that will do what they need it to do, even though it's giving away a lot of my trade secrets. I wanted to give them something complete. The other thing I wanted it to do is I love working with people on that leadership. What is the change they had to make in the world those passionate world changes. So one of the biggest blocks my clients face is imposter syndrome. If I can get them clearing out imposter syndrome. Imagine how much more progress we can make when we work together. So this was really how I decided which book to write and also where to finish it because I've published two novels in addition to

nonfiction books. And what they taught me as any story any journey has, it doesn't have a start and an end point other than that which the author chooses. So when you're writing a nonfiction book, you do have to decide where does my reader start? Where do I want them to finish? And then I use my background as an NLP trainer and in lean manufacturing, to work out the key steps they need to go through what are the mini transformations at each stage, so that that inner genius I normally share becomes pajama ready. So they will still get the results even if they're at home on their own, without me on the phone to answer questions. So that's how I write my books. how it fits in my ecosystem is I also run a 90 day online course for ditching imposter syndrome because some people need that accountability. It's got a Facebook group, we are monthly live calls. It's a mixture of video training, and what books and audios and meditations and some people learn better that way.

They know that they'll buy a book, they might read the first chapter. And then it just sits there gathering dust. I work with business leaders one to one. I run workshops, both in house for corporates, and also the public can join. I talk internationally, because as you probably guessed, I quite like talking about listening. But I quite enjoy talking and sharing these ideas. And this is kind of my ecosystem. And also once a year, I take a group of entrepreneurs through my author mastermind to help them get their book out there so they can change the world with their book too.

and expanding on my question a little bit, I'm curious to know, in terms of revenue, I'm not gonna ask you for anything. But I'm curious to know what the breakdown is between the consulting in person revenue and the online revenue. Now it changes every year because it depends what my focus has been, you know, where you put your attention is where you get your results. So this year, I've been shifting more back into the corporate field, but the timeline for corporate decisions is much slower. So that's

Revenue actually won't come into next year. So next year, the corporate revenue will be higher. But the time I spend in my online stuff and working with entrepreneurs won't be vastly different. This year, I've done a lot more of the online work.

And also, I've had to take the time out to write a book. So I've had to scale back a lot of the one to one higher ticket stuff I was doing, because it does take time to write a good book. You can't just bang it out through dictation over a weekend. No, it sounds like a lovely idea. I think it's also very, very difficult to delegate.

Yes.

So looking ahead, then, what's next? you've

published the book to study. Where do you want to go next? So I have a really, really big mission. where I want to go next is I haven't done the research. I've always been passionate about gender pay gap and gender equality.

senior roles and everybody feeling safe to make the contribution they want to make it in somebody else's business or their own. My mission next year is actually to launch community for senior female leaders where we're going to help them get promoted into the most senior roles. And they can start creating a wave of change within their business because this gender pay gap. The research showed three key drivers. One was imposter syndrome. One is the lack of flexible working and the horrendous hours and travel that most people are required to do in leadership roles. And the third was too many companies having a layer beyond which you have to behave like a man in order to succeed. So my longer term mission is actually to work with these women so that they can become those change agents in their business. So that in 10 years time our daughters don't even have to think about this. I think that's that's really, really interesting. What was struck me there is the two things that really come down to policy.

But you can't have a policy for your head.

So yeah, your work there is so, so valid and needed. Thank you. Well, my big thing is changing the world isn't so much about what you do. It's about who you allow yourself to become. And this fits so well with the imposter syndrome. When you allow yourself to become the version of you that's going to go out there and take the action even if it's scary to make that change. The change happens if you have that vision, but you don't allow yourself to grow into fulfilling it. your unconscious mind will find ways to self sabotage it for you see, my passion on this is to help these women become who they need to be to create that wave of change. You've been really generous with your time and absolutely with your knowledge and experience. If people want to connect with you, how would you like them to do that? So LinkedIn is a great place to hang out and My website is closer.com

and

Yeah, it's been really lovely talking with you, Bob, you asked great questions. And I always love it in an interview when I feel that between us we co create something better than would have happened had it just been me sat there with a microphone. So I'm really grateful to you for that, Bob. And yeah, thank you everyone who's been listening. I really hope this has helped. Really quickly I promised you the ABC technique of emergency quick fix, okay. imposter syndrome thought comes and rears its ugly head, okay, the body tenses you start feeling those emotions welling up. A stands for accept.

Accept that was an imposter syndrome thought. don't engage. Don't try and get rid and push it down. Just accept that instantly takes you to a place where you get a pause. Then you breathe. Okay, same breath work really well in through the nose.

Just allowing the nervous system that stress response to reset to three deep sign breaths and then just some belly breathing for about a minute. That resets the stress response.

comes to mind. So you got except breathe. And C stands for choose. consciously choose to think a thought and tell yourself a story about something you are doing well be specific, it can be tiny, it doesn't matter. What that does is it starts to fire off the positive emotion hormones and biochemical reactions. It gives you an endorphin head. And in that way in 60 seconds, you've gone from what could have been a sabotaging attack of imposter syndrome, to boosting your confidence and you are rewiring your brain to turn your inner critic into your biggest cheerleader. I think we all need a bit of first aid. Definitely. So that's I will be using that probably today. Thank you, Bob de report back there will clear your sir. Thank you very much for your time. I look forward to meeting you in person next month for now. Thank you. Thank you so much, Bob. It's been an absolute pleasure.

imposter syndrome is something I've experienced every stage of my own career. And I honestly believe if you're not coming face to face with it on a semi regular basis, frankly, you're probably not testing your comfort zone enough. I've ordered a book and I can't wait to get stuck in. Before I go, just a quick reminder to subscribe. And if you haven't already joined our Facebook group, you can find a link in the show notes or just search amplify insiders and Facebook and you'll find us easily. If you enjoyed the show that I would love for you to review on iTunes. It would mean a lot to me, and it's the very best way to help me reach more subscribers. My name is Bob Gentle. Thanks again to clear yourself for giving us her time this week to you for listening and see you next week.