Episode Overview

There are very few people who can truly claim to own the phrase - personal brand expert - despite the name of my podcast - I’m not on that list.

Mike Kim *is* one of those people.  

He’s one of those people who’s persona soothes my instagram feed and still manages to entertain, inspire and educate me with every single post.  

Mike’s been on the show before but this time he’s back with a whole new level of shock and awesome because he’s done what, for most, is a very hard thing. 


Automatic Audio Transcription

Please note : This is an automatically generated transcription.  There are typos and the system may pick words or whole phrases up incorrectly.  

Welcome to Amplify the Personal Brand Entrepreneur Show today. On the show, Bob is speaking with Mike Kim.

When it comes to the stuff that you want to share, ask yourself a simple question, can I build a campfire around what I'm sharing and what I mean by that is, are you providing a light in a dark place? Is it warm? Is it inviting? Is it a place where people can share stories? Is a content that you can build a community around? Are you somebody that people want to be around? That's how you build a person at.

Hi there. I'm welcome to Amplify The Personal Brand Entrepreneurial. My name is both gentle, and every week I'm joy by incredible people who share what makes their business work. If you're new to the show, take a second right now to subscribe in whichever player use. And if you're on Apple podcasts, make sure you hit the new follow option in the top. Right who will keep me up every time I post a new episode. In that way, we both win. There are very few people who can truly claim to own the phrase Personal brand expert, and despite the name of this show, I'm not on that list.

Mike Kim is one of those people. He is one of those people whose persona soothe my Instagram feed and still manages to entertain, inspire and educate me with every single post Mikes being on the show before, but this time he's back with a whole new level of awesome because he's done what for most people is a very hard thing. Mike, Congratulations on the publication of your new book. You Are The Brand and welcome to the show, Bob.

It is awesome to be here. Thank you for the warm welcome, and you soothe me. Just found your voice. So I'm just so honoured to be here. We finally made it happen. And I'm so glad that you had me on.

I have been badgering you for a little while to come on the show, but it little look. And apparently it doesn't seem like this long ago to me. But you have you're on the show almost exactly two years ago.

Yeah. It's kind of crazy, like time flies.

I know, I know. Have to do podcasts. No.

Yeah. There you go.

So How's the book going? Wall Street Journal bestseller. How does that feel?

It feels good. Thank you. You know, it's funny the way that I am. I'm just sort of like, okay, we did that. Let's go on to the next thing. And I don't say that as if it's a good thing. I do need to learn how to, like, slow down. And soak life in and but it does feel great. And at the same time, I was like, okay, cool. We did it like, don't get hung up on it, like, move forward to other things. And it's always sort of like that.

But I'm very proud of it. And I'm proud of myself. And it's hard for me to admit to verbalise and say, and I think that that's something that all of us as entrepreneurs who needs to get better at. You know, if you're going to be your own biggest critic, you also need to be your own biggest fan sometimes and be nice to yourself. So that's me trying to do exactly that. So yes. Thank you. I'm very proud of it.

Well, we're going to talk about the book, and I think obviously there's a before there's a during and the after. I watched what led up to the book, and I think that's probably quite important to talk about what was the process of writing it like. But one of the things that was most impressive and I would feel wrong for me to say this was intentional. But I look at how you build relationships. Those relationships actually played a large part in the success of the launch, and that doesn't happen by accident.

You're somebody who does just gather good will around you like a good rule in Snowball, and that paid off in the book launch. The number of people I saw get behind that book was a phenomena.

Yeah. Thank you. One of the titles in the book is Relationships or Rocket Ships. It's the last chapter in the book is actually my favourite topic to talk about, because not a lot of people talk about that. When we look at business. When we look at especially the solopreneur space, this personal brand space, we think that we can just pump out great content and get their loan. And I'll tell you right now, there are no loan Rangers in this illness. And if you're looking for partners and all that sort of stuff, I want to want to collaborate with others.

That's wonderful. But you need to do your part and be intentional in being a good friend to them and professionally be someone that they would want to partner with and collaborate with. So that was really cool. I did build relationships. Over the years I've been to lots of events have stayed in touch the best. You know, I think we can always do better. But when it was time and I needed people to have my back, they really did come through for me. And I think the other thing, too, is I saved it.

I didn't cash in a lot of these asks with people when it wasn't as important. I found other ways to make things work in the meantime. But I remember emailing several people back. I talked to them for maybe a year, year to, but we always maintained a good relationship in some way, shape or form and said, hey, I remember a couple of years ago you said, Holler, if I ever need anything, I need something. And that's how I got on podcast. That's how people promoted it to their email list.

It was pretty cool to see.

So tell us a little bit about the book. It's that roadmap. Lay it out for me publicly, not to the extent where people don't have to read the book.

Well, I feel like the overarching principle of the book is that the barrier to entry to this space is so low that we don't approach building a business with the same intentionality that you might if you were to say, open up a pizza restaurant. And what I mean by that is if you wanted to open a restaurant somewhere, you have to do a million things before you start marketing and pushing out content. You've got to have a business plan, you got to secure a loan. You've got to be strategic about the location, find the suppliers higher staff, train them.

All of this has to take place before you even start branding or marketing the business. And what I see in this personal brand space is that because the Barry of entry is so low, people just figure I'll start a podcast or I'll launch an Instagram account. I'll just promote some courses and everything will fall into place, and it definitely doesn't work that way. So the book is a book about marketing and branding, but it's more a book about building a business, a solid, concrete, tangible, step by step built business around the things that can often feel vague or always like changing.

I call it like you're trying to nail down Jello, right, because we have ideas and our passions and our desires change all the time. I don't know if I'm going to like coaching. I don't know if I'm going to like podcasting, but how are you going to build a business around it? And so really the eight steps. I'm an alliteration guy. We start with step one, which is establishing a clear point of view. Once you have that number two, you write some personal stories which are going to help your marketing.

Number three, you determine what platform you're going to share those stories on. And as you build the business, you determine your positioning to figure out where you sit relative to the competition and on and on ICOs products, pricing, pitch and partners. And the steps build one on top of the other. They're like digits in a phone number. You can have the right digits, but if they're not put in the right order and built sequentially, you're not doubt in you get a wrong number. And that's why so many personal brands struggle.

And I think right at the beginning is having a point of view piece for a lot of people, that's a crisis. It's a moment of crisis because what it means is if you're going to have an opinion, if you're going to have a point of view, if you're going to make a stand, that's going to turn some people off. And if you come from the place where you do business on a local perspective, with a fixed catchment area, the danger of turning a number of people off means you just half a very limited audience.

The difference is when you go online, don't that the maths are completely different. I'm curious. Now, do you remember when you discover that tipping point where actually turning people off is a good thing?

Yeah. I don't know if there was a tipping point because I think I'm kind of a nice guy. I don't actually like to rock the boat for the sake of rocking the boat. There are some people who like to do that. They just like to stir up stuff just for the sake of it. But I found both that when I saw things that I thought were half truths, especially in the industry that we're in, I saw people falling for slimy marketing tactics and all this sort of stuff.

That's when I started to call that out. And then I noticed a friend of mine said this to me, and I really appreciate it. He said, Your vulnerability is one of your superpowers and your willingness to be honest about the industry at the expense of maybe turning away, not clients, but partners is very refreshing. So it's interesting in that sense, where I don't feel like I'm turning away other clients. I feel like I'm turning away potential partners because I'm calling the industry out on a lot of the stuff that I see that are half true and not good for people.

And as I've done that, my following has grown, and that's been cool to see.

So anyone that's written a book, I'm always really impressed. I have an embryonic book idea at the moment, and I'm sort of extrapolating out with the process of turning this idea into a real thing in the world. Looks like. And it just blows my mind as I'm always curious to know what was somebody's process of going from idea to a document that's ready to hand over to somebody to have printed. What does that look like?

Yeah, for me? Well, I wrote the book over a number of years, and I don't know if you even know this, but I signed the book deal about five years ago, and I wrote the book, and I didn't write the book because I went through a lot of personal challenges. I went through a divorce. Life was just crazy, and I just did not have the creative bandwidth to be to write writing if you want to write and write. Well, it takes a lot. How do you do there's?

Honestly, there's a lot of resentment towards that season in my life and towards my actual life and all this stuff. It was just like, gosh, if I had written this book five years ago, my life would look so much different now. And there was that edge that I had to deal with and that kind of like energy and that sort of negative emotion that I had to deal with and work through. And so I had started and stopped the book numerous times over that five year period when the pandemic hit and we were all locked down and we couldn't go anywhere.

I was like, If I don't write the book this year, I'm literally not going to respect the guy that I see in the mirror. Right? So I just hunker down in. And I'll be honest, I hated, like, every minute of writing the book. I really did it because it was my own book, and I was probably being overly picky with everything. But it's also because emotionally, I was writing about a season in my life that was really difficult. I was writing about the years when I started my business and then immediately, six months after starting my business, my personal life went into a tailspin, and I was having to revisit those years and revisit events.

And it really, like, kind of opened up, you know, that season of hard times and the grief and the emotions associated with that. So that made writing the book hard as well. But some of the very tactical things that helped me, we're looking at the chapters that I wrote as if they were laws or Commandments about branding and marketing that I wanted the world to understand. So we started just a few minutes ago. It relationships or rocket ships that's literally the law, quote, unquote the subtitle of chapter ten in the book.

And so that's what I put into the table of contents. I was like, okay, I'm going to have a law for every chapter, whether my reader realises it or not, that's going to help me standpoint. Then with every chapter, I asked myself two questions. Number one, how did I learn this law, right? How did I did where I did this come from? I didn't read it. A book where I come to this realisation. And then number two, how did I make this happen for myself? So if the law is relationships or rocket ships, where did I learn that?

Or where was one instance in my life where I learned that if you read the book, the chapter opens with that particular chapter opens with a story about how I met a King from the African nation of Ghana, and he'd be on the phone with representatives from the United Nations all the time when I was driving him around, and he told me, so life is. He said something along. Life is who, you know what you know. And that was one of the instances in my life where somebody told me, relationships are much more important than your knowledge.

And so that's where the story came from in the book and how I framed it. And then the rest of the chapter is how I made that principal come true for myself. So if you go back and read the book through those lenses, you can see exactly how I wrote the book. So hopefully that's helpful for you, Bob. And for anyone else who is listening for you, the listener, ask yourself those two questions, where did you learn or how did you learn this? And how did you make it happen for yourself?

So speaking of the listener, who is the book for who is your ideal reader?

The ideal reader is for me, in my mind, somebody who wants to start a side hustle and scale it to a six figure business. Six figure us. I'm in the US, but a business based on your ideas, your expertise, your personality, your reputation, your knowledge. And there are a lot of people who want to do that. But more specifically, what I would say is this that number one. This is for somebody who has yet to quite nail down what niche product, service or clients they want to focus on, because that person is currently in what I call the start up stage, right?

They need to get proof of concept for the message, for the marketing, for the monetization strategies. But a lot of people in these stages in this stage, they get distracted by shiny objects, they are paralysed by self doubt and fear. And they're sold all these other courses and products that aren't right for them at this stage of their business. The second person I would say should read this book is someone who has a business, a solopreneur business. But the business has not made a hundred thousand dollars us a year in a row for the last three years.

What I'm looking for there is sustainability. These folks are making money, but the income can be up and down unpredictable. It's sort of feast or famine. And what that person needs to do is differentiate their message, and they have to pivot their offers, attract an audience so that they can get out of solely doing client work or relying on referrals. And the best way to do that is build your personal brand. And that's what of course, we talk about the book.

Yeah, I think I would venture to add to that. I think there are a lot of solo Prin our businesses that are modestly successful but not necessarily fulfilling. I'm possibly offering people a route to pivot into fulfilment from wherever they are. Would you say that's fair?

Yeah, I do. And I think that if you talk to a lot of people who are running their own business, they're enjoying it. It's like even if business is good, there are the main driver of the business, and that's a different stage. That's where you are building up the business. Revenue is great, but you're still the primary driver. You need to move to the scale up stage of business and get teams and processes in place. But you can't work on that stuff. If you're still trying to figure out what your product your niche is, you can't work on that stuff if you don't have clarity in your message and in your marketing and you aren't consistently making revenue if you are in a feast or famine situation, what is the good of hiring a team as a solopreneur?

Because one month you'll do great. You're like, great. I could pay the bills the next month. It tanks you're eating into your savings. And now you got to lay people off or break all these contracts. And it's just you can't really get any traction. So that's why I look at it from the point of, like, the stage of business that you're in. It's not wrong to get help. It's not wrong to hire a virtual assistant. It's just is this the right move for you for the season of business that you're in for the stage of business that you're in.

And that's why so many people in this space make mistakes. They do the right thing at the wrong time. So it's the wrong thing. And that's really who I try to help.

Yeah. I think that's one of the difficulties in our business and in marketing in general is all the things work, but they don't all work at the same time and in the same situations and so many people, they just walk into like a nuclear power station full of buttons. And they just start mashing the buttons without understanding. For them, there's really only one or two buttons that matter right now. And I think, yeah, the framework that you have there the eight step road map really helps structure that.

I give some orientation.



So something I'm curious on your perspective here, because one of the things you touch on in the book is the importance of platform and building your own platform. And I see a lot of people leaping into productization and all kinds of content marketing without really having an authority foundation, a place that there is a place where they regularly express themselves. So, like a podcast, a blog, YouTube, those kinds of things. How important is that platform piece? And have I missed anything? There are there platform styles, I guess.

Third, I may be a little bit more original that you've come across.

I would say that it's everything. The brand is everything. Hence the title of the book, You Are The Brain. And here's what I mean by this. If you are in, if you want to build a business around your ideas and you never share your ideas, you have no marketing. I mean, I'm very I'm very direct with my students, my clients. They say I want to be an expert in a thought leader. Well, if you want to be a thought leader and never share your thoughts, you have no marketing, because last time I checked, people cannot read your mind.

If you are an expert and you never share your expertise, how are people supposed to know that they should work with you? That's why so many people who start in this business don't get to a point where they can really live comfortably and have predictable results. Talent is not enough in today's attention economy. We are in an intention economy. You have to realise you're the brand. No one's going to buy from you if they don't know who you are. The age old business adage is people do business with those they know, like, trust.

Try by and then they repeat and refer, well, it's your job to get people to know you. If Bob, you tell me like, hey, Mike, there's a wonderful lady you should meet. I think you guys would be really great together. You hit it off and I don't know her. I'm not even going to get a chance to like her.


Or go out and hang out. Right. And that's exactly how this space is. You could be one of the best coaches, the best speakers or experts out there. But no one knows who you are. You'll have a tough time getting hired and you're going to struggle to sell your products because no one's going to know who you are now. One other thing is this sort of a mini rant. Here I am. I'm so sick of other gurus out there telling their students and members and followers that they do not need a brand just a few weeks ago.

And if I said this person's name, everybody would know them. But I saw a video from a big name business expert telling his audience it was from a live event to forget about building a personal brand. He said that they should just focus on getting good at speaking first. Right. Because he was talking about me. And what was he selling? A speaking programme, right. Of course. Now part in my, you know, like, New York City, New Jersey language. But that is such a load of crap.

Like, I was like, look at this. How ironic. He posted this video on social media right on his Blue Cheque verified Instagram account from a conference that had his name plastered and branded all over the state. I was like, what a hypocrite. That's so ridiculous. And the reason people do this, these goers do that.


Yes. You have to get good at something. But you can't tell people get good at something at the expense of building your brand. They have to be built at the same time. And these guys, like this guy do this because they want to keep their buyers in their ecosystem. So they buy every new product they create in order to keep them on, like this endless loop of co dependency and exorbitant spending. Right. And their members, their followers, people out there do not realise that every expert that they follow is a brand.

If they weren't, they wouldn't be following them in the first place because they wouldn't know who they are. So that stuff ticks me off. It rouses me up because they're lying to people.

I think that is frustrating, and it's far more common. Then I think a lot of people realise, yeah, I think there's a lot of disingenuous things happen out there. I think a lot of it is unintentional. It's just thoughtless talk, but thoughtless talk in our business, when you have influence like that is dangerous and it can do a lot of damage and cost people their careers and livelihoods. So yeah, I totally get that. I think one of the things that's also interesting to contrast with that you need to build a brand is this whole idea of hard work beats talent.

When talent doesn't work, that you can be great at something. But if you haven't managed to position yourself and build some visibility, then somebody who's half asked at it, who has invested a personal brand, they will find those opportunities and that's on you. I think that's another frustration that you see quite often. And for me, that was a bit of a driver, to be honest. So you see people who really don't know what they're talking about, who have built strong profiles, getting all the opportunities and just wrong quality should rise to the top, sadly, doesn't always.

It is down to the people who, yeah, they need to do the work and raise their own profiles.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's your job to do that. I tell my folks all the time. If you're in the start up for the ramp up phase, you need real followers, you need real fans, you need real subscribers, you need real connections, you can't just fake your way to it. You can't just buy a bunch of followers and assume that you have real authority. If people aren't missing you when you're gone, you haven't left a big enough impression in their lives. That's the bottom line.

So what does your average client look like now? And how do you serve them?

Yeah. The average client is really somebody who is in those first two phases of business, the start up in the ramp of phase. Every year we run a programme based off the book. It's called you or the Brand. It's a six month programme and it's half course. It's half coaching calls and it's in that there are master Mi groups, 1212 person master my groups like small groups. And I run the small groups. And what I see in the space. And the reason I built the programme this way is that you can't watch a bunch of videos and get clarity for yourself.

You need to talk to somebody. You need to talk to people. You need to get around other people that are also doing the same thing. And so I serve those clients in that matter. I build a community. I do my best to make it high touch. One of the things I say to folks is that when you're building a brand, you're often curious is what you should say. And most of the personal brand space plays out in one of two ways. We talked about this, you know, in some way, shape or form.

On one hand, you have people who are selling a false version of themselves. They are people who proverbially will have 15,000 followers on Instagram and only three comments. Or they'll rent a mansion on Airbnb, stage a photo shoot and imply that it's their house is a good idea. And these people do not realise that attention is owed. It's not earned. That's how they feel, but attention. It has to be earned. It is not owed to you. Then you have the second group of people who over share in the name of authenticity.

Authenticity is a big word now, and the problem with these folks is that they're not really selling a solution. They are selling their struggles, and it's like a car wreck on the interstate on the highway. It gets a lot of attention. But you can't build a community, rent it. People move on just like you said. They buy and move on or they click and move on or they just don't even do anything. And my proposition is don't build a brand, become the brand, become the person you're actually trying to sell to.

People do the hard work of growing up, of maturing, of facing your own demons and facing your own issues and and become the person that you're trying to sell to people. And when it comes to the stuff that you want to share, ask yourself a simple question. Can I build a camp fire around what I'm sharing and what I mean by that is are you are you providing a light in a dark place? Is it warm? Is it inviting? Is it a place where people can share stories?

Is it a place is a content that you can build a community around? Are you somebody that people want to be around? That's how you build a personal rant.

I think there's a few places I could go with that. I think one of the things I often come back to is if I was to parachute myself in to into the business owner that I want to be in five years running the business that I want to run in five years? I'm not that person. If you dropped me into that role, not right now. I just crashed the car. I had to do the work to become that person. And so many people forget about that that you need to work on yourself.

Your business grows when you grow essentially, as you said, who do you need to become to have whatever it is you want to have because you're not that person right now. If you were, you'd have it.

Yeah. The opening chapter of the book. And this is one of my big tenants in life is when I Cook, could she folks, could you have to become in order to serve the people you want to serve? But that's a good question to start with, which is why we started with it in the book do you have to become a better communicator? Do you have to become a risk taker? Do you have to shed this need to present a false version of yourself? Can you be more authentic?

Can you be more real? Would you have to become? Do you have to become a leader? Do you have to mature? You have to become more emotionally healthy. All these things and life is always a quest of getting better, the things that we can get better at it for those who are really interested in becoming a better version of themselves, a really living life to the full. And if you're going to get into the space, you might as well do the work, because if you just want to make money, I turn a lot easier ways to make money than being in this space.

You know, you can go flip properties. You can, you know, do weird things on the Internet. You know, you can make money doing almost anything these days. But if you really want to build a business and a brand around yourself, do the hard work of working on yourself.

I guess I'm going to bring things back to the book. And I'm curious to know for me, this is one of the important questions. Is business before the book business and life because I think as a personal brand business, there's a big blurry cross over there. So business in life before the book and business in life just after the book, what impact has it had?

I would say this for probably the last year and a half my life's been consumed by writing this book and marketing the book. So that's taking up a big piece of my life now that the book has launched and it's done very well. Honestly, I don't think about it a lot, and I just got done. I just got done promoting our course. That when I told I just talked about a few minutes ago and that's something that we do once a year. I'm really excited about working with people in that regard because I love coaching.

I love coaching. I love getting in the dirt with people. I don't think that you can change someone's life by sitting in the sky box. You have to get on to the field within, especially in this industry that I'm in and that you and I are in. You've got to work with them. They need to talk to you. And so I'm excited about that. I don't know how to quantify what major changes it happened because of the book. It feels nice that I can send people somewhere to get some of my best content, and it's just a couple of dollars, right?

But deeper than all of that, if anything, I'm just really proud that it's done because it was really a long road. And I would say this and I've said this on a personal. This is more a personal level. It allowed me to close a chapter of my life, all those difficult years that are talked about in the book. Sort of the janky energy, if you will, that I had around not having written the book earlier and feeling like I couldn't do it because of what happened in my personal life.

Like once I finished the book and I held that in my hands, it was a very, very powerful feeling because I was like, wow, you know, I came out on the other side and in that season's over and I've created something beautiful out of it that can help people that I can look back on and say I did that and move on. And I feel like my life right now is just an open field. Like I can run wherever I want. I can go wherever I want with whoever I want.

And it's just so incredibly empowering and wonderful. Sea Life is great.

Well, everyone listening, you need to go and get a copy. And I don't honestly say that about every author that's been on, but this is probably the one book all of my listeners should read this year. It's for you. Mike Kim, thank you so much for coming on the show. If people want to connect with you, how would you like them to do that? We can he find you on social media.

I'm on Instagram the most at my Kim TV, but you're listening to a podcast. If you like podcasts, find me on your podcast app, just look up my Kim. We've recently rebranded the podcast too. No, no surprise. You are the brand and I'm really excited about that because we're changing things up a little bit and it's a fresh approach to it. And so I'm very, very excited about that. So cheque it out. You are the brand and of course, grab a copy of the book.

If you liked this podcast, you will like Mike's podcast too. It should be on your playlist for next up after this one, but only after this work. Mike, what's one thing you do now you wish it started five years ago.

One thing I'm sure other people will invest in Bitcoin or something like that. I'm going to go a different route here. I wish it's a cold showers. Five years ago I've been doing the whole like take a cold shower for five minutes in the morning and it totally changed my life. Like more than glad to.

That was a win half thing.

I don't know. I remember there was a season where despite the fact that I was working out, I just never had any energy. I was just like, why can't I sleep? Well? Why can't I wake up in the morning? And I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. And a few people had mentioned that they take cold showers and I think I was just like, alright, let me just see what this is. And I eased my way into it because I take warm showers like normal people and jump in the cold water for 10 seconds at the end of the hour.

And I eventually made my way up. And I eventually switched to doing them in the morning. And it's funny because every morning I am like, oh, here we are again. And I've learned to change my perspective and reframe what I'm about to do because my body is going to go into shock. And I'm like, I'm just grateful for this opportunity. And, you know, then I'm in there for a few minutes. I play a song off Spotify, and I know exactly the runtime of the song. So I've got to be in for the whole song, and I get halfway through.

And almost every morning I scream at myself. I'm like, I did not come this far to fail, meaning staying in this hour for the full one. I not come this far. You freaking fail, and it really amps me up. Like, it really gets me, like, in the right frame of mind. And I'm like, if I can do this, I can do anything that I know that I'm going to face for the day. I told you just recently, we went through the launch and launches. Product launches are like the ban of any marketers existence.

They're awesome and terrifying all at the same time. And after the first day of the launch, of course, all the impostor syndrome kicks in and you're like, you're going to be broke. No one's going to buy anything I look at sales are terrible, and I was so annoyed at this, I went in the cold share. I just started screaming, like, not screaming, but I was like, yelling it. How come this sort of fail? Like, I do not negotiate with terrorists? Like, speaking of this, that was just crazy, like all of this self talk that was just coming out of nowhere.

Man. It just cleared all of that. It just cleared all the energy, just cleared all the bad juju. I know this sounds super woo right now, but there are a lot of scientific, scientifically backed reasons why cold sores are pretty good for you, man. I wish I knew that five years ago.

I'm just going to delete the rest of the show. That was the best bit. Mike, you've been awesome. Thanks so much for your time. I can't wait to speak to again. Hopefully not another two years. But for now. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for having me. But.

Before I go, just a quick reminder to subscribe and join our Facebook group, you'll find a link in the show notes or visit amplify me to a forward slash insiders. Also, connect with me wherever you hang out. You'll find on all the social platforms at Pop Gentle. If you enjoyed the show, then I would love a five star review on Apple podcast. It would make my day. And if you share the show with a friend. You would literally make my golden list. My name is Pop gentle, thanks to you for listening.

And I'll see you next week.

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