Episode Overview

Joanne Sweeney works with the public sector on issues around communication and the use of digital marketing and social media in particular. She works with social media managers, policy makers and anyone who's job it is to be front and centre, online for police departments, governments, health services and even the UN.

In this weeks show we explore Joanne's journey, her challenges, inspirations and really get under the bonnet on what makes her business work now. If you want to play bigger but find your own head gets in the way then you will love Joanne. 

About Joanne

Joanne Sweeney is the CEO of Public Sector Marketing Institute and Digital Training Institute, host of the Public Sector Marketing Show podcast and organiser of Europe’s Public Sector Digital Marketing Summit.

A skilled digital marketing consultant and trainer, Joanne’s accredited programmes attract students from across the world.

She is one of only 14 trainers delivering Google’s Advanced Data-Driven Marketing programme to their biggest clients worldwide. She has also briefed Facebook’s senior government team and has spoken at Twitter Headquarters in San Francisco on Digital Citizenship.

A former broadcast journalist, she is also a two-time author on digital communications for government and public sector agencies. Her second book Public Sector Marketing Pro has been described by former President Barack Obama’s Chief Digital Officer as “the handbook I needed when in the White House, it would have saved me years of learning by error.”

She holds two Master’s Degrees, one in Journalism and one in Digital Marketing.

Joanne’s writing has been published on Social Media Examiner, the world’s largest social media website and she has spoken on stages in the US, Australia, mainland Europe, the UK and Ireland.

Joanne's website:  https://publicsectormarketingpros.com/

Automatic Audio Transcription

Please note : This is an automatically generated transcription.  There are typos and the system may pick words or whole phrases up incorrectly.  

Hi there and welcome back to Amplify the Personal Brand Entrepreneur podcast. I'm Bob Gentle, and every Monday I'm joined by amazing people who share what makes their business work. If you're new to take a second to subscribe through your player app. And while you're listening, join our Facebook community. Just visit, amplify me forward, slash insiders and you'll be taken right there. Hi there. And welcome back to amplify the personal brand entrepreneur. My name is Bob Gentile.

And this week I'm really excited. I mean, I always say I'm really excited, but this week I'm really excited to speak to Joanna Sweeney from the Public Sector Marketing Institute. If I got that right, that's perfect.

Bob, how are you?

I am very well. Now, we've been circling each other's worlds like a pair of knowledge hungry tigers for a long time, and I never really had the time to spend any time with you. We both worked with Chris Tucker and his mastermind. And I know you know Chris really, really well. And I've been watching what you've been doing with all for the last few years. So I'm really excited to get to speak to you. For those people who aren't in that particular universe, why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are, where you are and what you do.

So it's great to be on the show. And yes, I agreed to have this conversation and we have crossed paths, albeit mostly online. So I'm based in the west of Ireland in Galway. I'm from the northwest of the country and I'm a digital marketer by trade. I've been working in the sphere for 12 years now as a self-employed consultant and trainer. But before that I was a broadcast journalist, worked in Peor and had a couple of CEO roles.

But essentially for two decades I've been in communications and my real job title, if somebody wanted the unofficial title, would be writer and storyteller, because I believe that stories are the things that bind us all together. It's the little beginning, middle and end, the parable with the emotional connexion that allows us to reach people's minds, but also their hearts, and then bring them on a journey with us. So I'm really fortunate that I love what I do.

And about, what, 13, 14 years ago, I saw the communications industry change. I saw the waves of change lapping up my ankles. And not one to be outdone by a younger generation coming out of university, I decided that I wanted to be at the cutting edge of digital. And it's really interesting looking back and intentionally making that decision, because I now look at my trajectory of between academia and my profession and my business. And I have to say that that intention was always with me.

Now I specialise in digital marketing for government and public sector. So I have gone niche. I have jumped to that side of life. And while pizza and shoes and handbags are my favourite things in life, I don't want to market them because it's the journey in me. I really love the hard news story and I really love the cut and thrust of politics. And I loved being a journalist, but it was never going to satisfy me. And I really probably always was the the captain of my own ship.

So that's where I right now, Bob.

So for anybody who doesn't know and anybody listening in the U.S., you're in for a treat. You've got two proper regional accents from. So the islands that are called Britain and you're in the Republic of Ireland on probably the prettiest part of the coast in Europe, in my opinion, other than obviously the west coast of Scotland. But that's quite interesting for me, because Galway is probably about as far away from any centre of government as you could get in Europe, unless I've completely misunderstood the sort of the political geography of Ireland for a start and Europe subsequently.

What sort of what was it that led you to pick public sector specifically? Because I'm guessing if keeping a Galway, it's not central to your day to day life there.

No, you're absolutely right. You're just thank God your geography is spot on. And we do live on the wild Atlantic way. And so we're more about adventure than perhaps politics here. And the corridors of power, obviously, in Ireland are in Northern Ireland and Stormont in Dublin and Leinster House. Then we go to Brussels. And from a European context, then if I go west, it's its next stop, Washington and us. So yet it's not on my doorstep.

But the beautiful thing about it is that the digital world has allowed me to actually be at the doorstep of the corridors of powers and actually go into them. Because I can be location agnostic, but the reason that I chose this niche and it actually took me a year to figure out what my online niche was going to be. So four years of teaching people how to trade online, scale online, be online, show up online, build brands online.

I was like, hey, I want to do that for myself. Hence the personal brand philosophy that I subscribe to, as do you. And I really wanted to know what would be my niche because I didn't want to. I knew that doing digital marketing for everybody and even for businesses was going to be really tough and the digital space. So I kind of took a step back and looked at the things that got me interested. And and that was back to my journalism days, like I did a master's in journalism.

And back in 2001, I did a master's degree in digital marketing in 2013. And when I did that, I decided to research how the Irish police force used social media for community engagement, public relations and crime prevention. And that was really the answer there, right there. And then six months after finishing that academic piece of work, I wrote and published my first book. And because I realised that when I was looking for articles and journals and papers to quarter my academic research, there weren't any.

And like any good digital marketer, the light bulb went off in my head and I said, I've just identified a niche right there. And then and I can own the Internet for this topic. But what I subsequently realised that was like policing and social media was just too niche because I was too early for the market. And within police forces, there was usually just a handful of officers, probably at a senior level, that were responsible for social.

So my vision to scale in that area just wasn't to be. And then a number of years later, probably 2016, 2017, I decided the public sector more broadly was probably the place for me. I have a degree in politics, sociology, master's in journalism and public relations. Still just watch news on TV, on TV. So I feel at home in that place and I'm really enjoying it.

So one of the things that's really interesting is people pick niches for so many different reasons. Some people pick them because they're already an expert in that space. They just realise, actually, I can I could just make this my one thing. And for me, that was what I did for a little while. I was what I called the UK's leading expert in digital marketing for the upstream oil and gas market. But I hated it. I didn't want to be that guy.

So I sort of lit a match and a Viking funeral for that personal profile. There's Alex Curtis, who I'm pretty sure you know, he is a digital marketing expert for the financial services because that's the background that he comes from. But you picked a niche. It was sort of a flash of, aha, here is a niche is not necessarily one that you earned your way into in terms of this is what I've spent the last 15 years working on.

It's this is where you discovered you wanted to make your mark and your contribution and you learnt about it. You studied it and you became the expert. And that's something that I think not enough people consider is Nicias can choose you or you can choose. Nicias doesn't have to be one or the other. And I'm curious to know, how sudden was that decision tannish there? Or actually, did you have to circle back to it later on and realised that that was finished that you were going to use?

Honestly, it took me a full year. I was part of another mastermind a before I joined Kris's with Sigrun could consider the Icelandic business coach who works with female entrepreneurs and trying to increase the number of female entrepreneurs that break the million mark, because the percentage, I think, is less than five percent globally. And I was paralysed in that mastermind for a year while my peers were selling and scaling online. I was just frozen and I did not know what was wrong with me.

And basically I had imposter syndrome because again, who said, you know, talk to me about your book, talk to me what you know, what you love. And she said, you're the global expert in this field. And I thought it was a ridiculous thing. And I just it just didn't sit comfortably with me. And you're absolutely right. I had never worked in the public sector. You know, I tried politics in 2009 when I was six months pregnant and lost by forty seven votes and dear.

So. I just it didn't sit with me, but then and I even went for a job in public sector and during the interview, you know, I was like, I've got a degree in, you know, government and national European. I know this stuff. And I had at that stage been CEO of the local Chamber of Commerce where I was living then. And the guy on the interview panel said he said if donors paid and he looked at me and he said, Joanne, you know what the problem is, you know too much.

So I didn't get the job. But yeah. So with Sjogren's mastermind towards the end, I remember making a four hour journey from Donegal where I'm from, to go away and stopping halfway through. And I had to pull in at the side of the road and I wrote it on my phone and I said, my mission is to elevate the standard of digital communications in government and public sector to try and change the world. One digital message at a time.

That's quite profound. But it was in that moment that I went, yes, that's what I can do. And since then, I've kind of done a bit of soul searching and wondered. And it's the podcast episode that I am threatening to do on myself, but I'm a little bit too nervous to do it. But I'll tell you the story. And when I was 16 years of age, I discovered that I was pregnant. And when I was 17, my daughter Sophie was born and I went back to school to do what's called the leaving certificate here in Ireland.

It's that state exam that gets you to third level. And so I was hugely ambitious from an education point of view. And I just knew that education was going to be the passport to my independence and Sophie's future because I come from a working class background. You know, poverty was kind of mainstream in the 80s and it was just life was tough. But I was smart and I loved school. But I again made a conscious decision that I wanted to to get my education, get my living search.

I went back into my principal and I'm glad social media wasn't around back then because I would have been trending because been pregnant in the mid 1990s was somewhat of a scandal. Yeah. Rural Ireland. And I said to my principal, I'm coming back to school. I figured it out. My baby will be six weeks old at the first mid-term break. She should the baby should be sleeping all night. And he just looked at me and he said, OK, sweetie, he said, but the same rules will apply for you.

And he give me a punch on the shoulder. And it was a punch of real support. And I said, no problem. And off I went. But circumstances then happened five months later, Sophie's dad was killed in a road traffic accident. And I was there that night. I decided not to get into the car. Three people were killed and I was just parachuted into what I call the very first steps of my entrepreneurial journey, which where grit, resilience and being resourceful when you have no resources.

So I call myself the accidental entrepreneur. So I think the seeds were so on then. And so that education was, as you could now appreciate, was even more important to me, even more important. And I got the third highest results of my class. Highest of all, the girls are so proud of myself, the first person in my family to go to university. I mean, this was this was breaking down so many barriers and breaking through so many ceilings.

So stereotypes are completely. And then when I went to university and I thought that was that I realised that the government supports for me, I just didn't check the box. And there's a support there called third level allowance where you will get support with childcare and rent allowance and all of these. And it's really to encourage mothers to return to education or adults who left education early to go back and to get a third level qualification. But they said to me, Joanne, you're under age.

By this stage. I was nineteen. And I said, What do you mean I'm underage? And they said, Well, you don't qualify until 23. And I said, But that's going to cost the state an extra eight and a half thousand pounds. And, you know, I took a case to the ombudsman and this guy called Kevin Kelaher used to call me in a phone box, if you remember one time. And my daughter Sophie was at my knees and we used to walk to this phone box and Salto and Golway at a particular time.

And he would call me to update me on the case. And I'll never forget that man. And the fact that he listened and took an interest. You know, the end of that story was I got some compensation for not for not Kuala. But the legislation, unfortunately, still remains out of date today, but I actually think that is that is the reason why now I care so much because social media, as you know, is a two way flow of conversation, and it gives the ability of the citizen to have a say on policies that are written in their interest.

And we live in a world where I have written about in my latest book where the pendulum of power has swung from state, church and big business into the hands of the people and the people's voice. No matters because it can't be ignored. And I think that's probably the way of what I do now. And I it's more than digital marketing for me. It's more than, you know, trying to get on the inside by being on the outside.

It's actually just about good practise and saying, you know, social media isn't an evil and it's actually a necessary tool for you to listen, to learn and to lead by listening. And and and so that's that's where I'm at. And as I say, I'm I'm enjoying it. But initially, it was a bit tough to to take it on and get rid of the imposter syndrome.

Well, I think the thing with imposter syndrome and this is something that I find again and again is because impostor syndrome comes up very often on this podcast. And I can think of maybe two occasions. And if there are anybody, just listen to every single episode of this podcast. Number one, you're awesome. No. Two, I don't believe you there, but I don't think there's any more than two people have ever said I don't suffer with imposter syndrome at all.

And what I would say about those people who I've met for whom imposter syndrome isn't an issue, what I see is somebody that stop trying. They are not. For me, imposter syndrome is a signal that you're on the edge of your comfort zone and you're growing. So for me, it's a signal of this is you're in the right place. But what I love about your story there, particularly in the public sector, I think. Yes, you can build a business there, but it's bigger than that when you can genuinely serve unless you bring something special to it, you offer it the opportunity for transformation.

That's what anybody does. Anything, anyone, anybody buys anything is because they want some kind of transformation. You're offering transformation to big organisations. And like you described most businesses, their understanding of social media. It's a facility where I can transmit. It's not about listening. And what you described there was the ability of a community and an organisation to really start talking to each other and listening. But what I was really interested in and I'm curious on your perspective, and this is getting really off to the left of what would normally be talking about, but that's fine because it's your niche.

So where I'm coming with this is when that conversation starts and when the power is in the hands of the people. How much of an issue is it that they actually take responsibility and educate themselves as to what it is they've got in terms of power, because that's something I see as really lacking?

That's a great question. And what you're talking about here is citizens like you and I who now have a democratised Internet, the free availability of Wi-Fi and a smartphone in our hand, and we can talk and speak and engage and maybe go so far as to challenge, disrupt, misinform, troll abuse. And we know that those type of conversations go in any direction. And what I would say to that is, yes, there's personal responsibility. And I describe that as digital citizenship.

And that's the safe, savvy and ethical use of the Internet by all of us as a collective. We all have a responsibility. However, that's not something that every person is consciously aware of when they are on their smartphone. And, you know, you get a hundred people in a room and you ask them when you tweet or when you post on Facebook, who do you think he sees it? How many people do you believe sees? And they probably won't know.

We know because we study this as a discipline and we're knee deep in it every single day. So personal responsibility is massive. However, there's also a digital literacy problem and a divide and a gap that exists because there is a lack of self-awareness. I would say in the main you are going to have a cohort of people on the extreme who are deliberately using platforms to disrupt governments, democracies and science and research. We're going through a pandemic. So we've seen that and also to take on others, whether in professions or people that they know through targeted bullying that exists.

There is one area where I talk about a lot and it's disinformation, but the role of government and public sector and in the spread of disinformation. So I am fortunate to be a trainer for Google and work with Google's Digital Academy, which was funded in London a number of years ago. And now they develop digital marketing programmes for their biggest clients across the world. So when we were getting trained three or four years ago, I think we had a leader from YouTube and he was talking about the phenomenon of the influencer probably born on YouTube.

I know right across tech talk Instagram, you know, there were Snapchat influencers there. Also, there still are. And basically Google as the Goliath of the world of search. And I'm social if you if you think about YouTube as the world's biggest, you know, social media outlet, after Facebook said that what they were seeing as a phenomenon is as search became mainstream, obviously you and I and everybody like us were using Google to search for particular topics that we were interested in or that we wanted to know more about.

What Google and YouTube saw on the inside of their platforms was that there was a huge vacuum in terms of trusted information being provided by brands, but also by government and public sector. And when there was a vacuum, there will always be somebody to step and hence the growth of influencers who were sitting there behind their mikes, behind their front of their video cameras and blogging and really filling the Internet and owning the Internet for particular topics. So now when we see the spread of disinformation, whether it's around the pandemic vaccines, political decisions or policies, whatever it is, whatever you want to talk about, I always say, who is the author and the owner of the truth on this?

And there's always a government department or a public sector agency that owns the truth or who should be the prescriber of the truth because they're directing policy. And if they're not communicating and filling the Internet and optimising content on social with the truth, that is, you know, their truth, then they're going to leave a gap. Not I'm not for one minute suggesting that freedom of speech and the governments, whatever they prescribe, is truth. But what I'm saying is bad actors can hand out gaps and they can manipulate and take advantage.

And so I think that's where my expertise comes into the main. And I'm even teaching radio stations in Ireland about this also because as media as being the Guardian. Off the truth and investigating what truth is, and they also have to step up, so it's it is a big conversation. And whenever I say to a journalist, do you think social media is mainstream media? Oh, my goodness, it's they hate me. And it's one conversation that I want to have with a group of journalists, and I will have it at some stage.

But, yeah, we all have a personal responsibility to to put out, you know, the truth and responsible information on the Internet.

As you might know, the show is supported by our sponsor. I go Arapiles. Now, you know how hard it is to juggle all the things in your business, the accounts, the meetings, the never ending inbox. And that's why I teamed up with a group to give you more than five hours back a week. When it comes to managing your social media marketing, no complicated Excel talks, long emails or millions of open times simply manage all your social media channels in one place.

Go to amplify me. DOT agency Fogo ripostes to score two months for free on me now or you have to do is figure out how you want to spend those spare five hours. Yeah, and I guess something you were talking about with the public sector organisations needing to have ownership of a conversation space, then they also need to take responsibility for the ownership of that conversation space and actually participate. And I think that's where I think your niche probably has its obvious, tremendous value is somebody to go to that's showing leadership in this and can answer the questions because they're very specific.

They're very, very specific questions that are different from what everybody else does. So here's a question for you. Your niche is very specific, but it's very big because the world is a massive place and public sector is public sector is public sector. It doesn't matter what language you speak, sameness. So how do you deal with this problem of relationship building? I know you you do content marketing, and that's clearly where I'm going with this conversation. But how does Joanna Sweeney manage to turn up in other people's conversations in order that, A, your business can grow be because people are appreciating your value?

That's a great question. And because your primer to that question was, you know, public sector is public sector and government. Wherever in the world you go, you've got a huge market. My challenge is that this market doesn't realise that I or my service exists because guess what? They're not even Googling social media for government or digital marketing for public sector, because if they did, they would easily find me. So you're right. I'm really going in on that relationship building and making a statement with authority content.

And that's always been my approach. Just because I'm a writer and a storyteller and a broadcaster by trade, it's where I'm comfortable. So. I have the public sector marketing show, which is a podcast and a weekly Facebook and YouTube show, and I also have a book called Public Sector Marketing Pro. I have the Public Sector Digital Marketing Summit, which is an event. And I also write the state of social media in the public sector report every year.

And that's a report that provides social media benchmarks for government and public sector and excludes private sector. So, for example, the last story I did was in 2020, and I analysed the social media footprint of over 500 government agencies in Ireland to get benchmark rates on engagement, reach follower's number of posts. And so, yeah, I try and own the market with authority. Content is a very deliberate strategy because I know my market. I know that they there are very discerning.

They're not going to like all your posts. They're not going to disclose themselves to me because they have to be very careful who they associate themselves with, even in a work capacity. So what they hang along the edges and the fringes of my content, they also will do their due diligence on who you are. And I need to make that due diligence very, very easy for them, because if they Google John Sweeney or Public Sector Marketing Institute or have a look at any of my content, it has to speak to them.

And also, I've designed my own courses so of diploma and social media for government and public sector, a diploma in digital marketing for government, public sector. You are getting the trend now, but I've also accredited those. So I've made an effort right now and the accreditation because again, that's what matters to them. And believe it or not, it's it's not the money objection that I suffer from. It's the commitment object objection of, well, this is all very new to us.

You know, as entrepreneurs, we're we're quite decisive in terms of I do this, I get a result. I invest this, I get a return, you know, where whereas with the public sector, they're a bit more considered and conservative and still nervous, I would have to say, about going all out online and committing. But the one thing I would say on that is covid-19 has fast forwarded that sector in a whole year. As Google says, we've experienced a decade of digital transformation and 12 months.

And, you know, the World Health Organisation was the number one social media brand in 2020. And so the focus of the world was on your public health and your government. So it's been like a weird gift has covered to me because now there's a sense of urgency. And my education marketing that was so intense and trying to convince and convert is easier now because of the pandemic.

I think as well, people are much more accustomed to dealing with people like you and I online. It's it's become mainstream. Whereas a year ago an online course was it was a bit of a sort of laurant oddball way to go, whereas now it's it's all there is and yours is the only accredited option, which makes it pretty much golden.

Yeah. And again, I would say that's been a real a real gift to me that, know, the decision making and seeing an online course is. Yeah, that's the a natural thing to do as opposed to drag you halfway around the world and put you into a room of twelve people for a day and then you fly back. I also think the cost benefit analysis of people's time and er models and all of that and has, has definitely shifted.

So everything you describe to me in terms of your sort of online ecosystem, it comes across as methodical, diligent, well put together, structured. It also sounds like you're in a ton of work. And I'm curious to know because lots of people listening will probably also think, wow, well, that sounds like a lot. How do you have help or is this all, Johanna, just working 24 hours a day? John Rother?

Yeah, I mean, listen, I I'm the queen of to do lists and systems and processes, and I've been. Working for 20 years, I've been self-employed for 13 bob, if I hadn't mastered my own process by now, I should really be questioning myself. I really have perfected what I do and how I do it. We're a very small team. There are like three of us. But then I do have other subcontractors who will, you know, do my podcast, video editing and things like that.

And but really tomorrow, for example, I will record for 35 minute shows in a studio, which will be the Facebook and YouTube show and the podcast. And one of my team then will repurpose it based on our process and do the social. And my report has a has been going for three years. I have a process for that. The so much this will be the third year. I have a process for that and. And then in between times, I serve my clients, I mean, my courses are evergreen, I do have clients that I consult with and that have bespoke training.

And and but really, I have improved the scalability of me and little story. I was on The Irish Apprentice a 10 years ago. I got to the final, but I came third. And so I was the last person to be fired. And ah, our Lord Sugar was built. Cullen, a car garage mogul, he said to me, Jwan, you're great. You're a great saleswoman, you're a great PR woman. But guess what?

Your business is you and you're not scalable. And that always stuck with me. And then I met Chris Stocker and the rest is history.

Yeah, it scares me to think of the costs that must exist. And a chain of car garages. It's very and this is the thing people need to understand is there's a huge difference between turnover and profit. You can build an incredibly successful business with a tiny, tiny footprint in terms of resources. Some I was speaking to somebody today. She has seven multimillion dollar businesses. Each one in itself is a multimillion dollar business. And she has a team is probably about the same size as yours.

It's it's what you do with it that counts is where you find your leverage. It's how you distil your value and then get it into the hands of the people who need it the most. And I think I know how well you're doing, but I know how well you can do. And it makes my eyes water.

Yeah. And one thing, Bob, I would say is that I now have perfected my focus. I know what where I should be spending my time and where I shouldn't, whereas and we've all done it years and years of doing everything that was not adding value or that was distracting you from your focus. And and also my clients are good value clients. The other thing is that the value of a client for me, the lifetime value is very high.

So once I engage with them and I'm on their system because, you know, you have to be set up as a supplier in a government agency, that relationship is a longstanding one. Yeah. Oh, and I invest in that a lot. I invest in the relationship a lot.

And I think because you have the strong personal brand, the clear authority, they have to push past you to get to somebody else. And that's a really powerful place to be. They're going to have to actively say no to John Sweeney before they say yes to somebody else. And that's going to be hard to do.

Yeah. And when the more contacts realise that what I do is designed specifically for their needs and it's not a generic, you know, digital marketing offering and I can speak their language, I think that makes a difference. I understand the nuance of politics versus the policymakers where where the power brokerage is. Who are all of those stakeholders that have a. A role to play in the decision and in a communication, I'm actually thinking for them to know which which is really helpful.

And and also, you know, PR crisis management is a favourite topic of mine, you know, and that is one that will always hook them in because, you know, our public sector agencies are not immune from our regular crisis stuff starts or escalates on social.

So we've kind of seen where you've gone over the last few years, what's over the horizon for you? What are you looking forward to?

I'm really looking forward to to crossing through that crossroads that I can see in front of me. So the product base, the systems are there. And the next step of scalability, I believe, is just in front of me. And I have a picture of the White House on my vision board. I'd really like to add Vice President Biden and the forward for my book, Public Sector Marketing Probe was written by the chief digital adviser for President Obama. So, yeah, I just feel that I can genuinely help, you know.

Governments and big agencies and help them to do it right, but also from a place of citizen first as opposed to a place of spin. And yeah, I want to be operating on all continents and I want to be advising at the highest levels. I mean, I'm fortunate enough to advise currently in the European Parliament and with a lot of European organisations. So, yeah, I'm looking ahead to to other big to other big frontiers and and also making sure that I can fill my courses with a lot of people and to scale that, you know, changing the world one digital message at a time.

And the Internet allows me to do that. And so that's what I'm looking forward to, really.

Well, I'm excited for you. I think you've done an incredible job with the Public Sector Marketing Institute. I've got that right. Yeah. Thank God. It's very, very impressive. And yeah, hopefully there are people listening, thinking, you know what, Joanna? That sounds amazing. Where can I sign up? So people want to engage with you. How can they take things further?

So the website is public sector marketing pros, dot com. And even if you Google Joanne Sweeney or Public Sector Marketing Institute, you will find us because I own the pages for those on Google and on the social networks.

And you mentioned your summit very briefly. Tell us who's that for? Who should attend? What can they expect?

Yes. So anyone working in government or public sector who have an interest or a role around any type of communications, this is for you is the 22nd twenty third of September online. We have speakers from across the world, from hopefully every continent. Day one is the main stage keynote and case studies and data is a day full of practical social media, how to workshops and again, public sector marketing post.com. And click on and you'll find it there.

Awesome. Join. I guess I need to ask you the question I ask everyone at the end of our time together. And it's what's one thing you do now that you wish you'd started five years ago?

That's very easy, Bob. I wish I had committed to going online five years ago, and I didn't because I had fear.

And I think what I what I'm really excited about is how much you can achieve in the time that you have been online because. Oh, my God. And I think that really needs to be a powerful takeaway for anybody listening. This isn't necessarily a ten year slog. It can be. But if you commit to it, you can do such a lot in such a short time.

And what I would say is, as a final note, is that what I have achieved in three years, I hadn't achieved a percentage of it in the previous eight.

Fantastic. John Sweeney, you have been an awesome guest for me, an amazing role model. Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you, Bob. Thank you.

Before I go, just a quick reminder to subscribe and join our Facebook group. You'll find a link in the show, notes or visit, amplify me. Don't have time forward slash inciters also connect with me. Wherever you hang out, you'll find me on all of the social platforms at potential. If you enjoyed the show, then I would love a five star review on our podcast that would make my day. And if you share the show with a friend, you would literally make my golden list.

My name is Bob Gentle. Thanks to you for listening and I'll see you next week.

Thanks for listening!

It means a lot to me and to the guests. If you enjoyed listening then please do take a second to rate the show on iTunes.  Every podcaster will tell you that iTunes reviews drive listeners to our shows so please let me know what you thought and make sure you subscribe using your favourite player using the links below.