Episode Overview

A few of my guests are in the category of Legend and this week my guest is on that list. He’s the author of most of my favourite marketing books - and he’s undoubtedly the catalyst to my own content journey.

Mark Schaefer is the author of Known, Marketing Rebellion, The Content Code, Born to Blog and and a bunch of other great books.  Today he's back to talk about his new book - 'Cumulative Advantage : How to build momentum for your ideas, business and life against all odds.'

Mark's site : https://businessesgrow.com/

Automatic Audio Transcription

Please note : This is an automatically generated transcription.  There are typos and the system may pick words or whole phrases up incorrectly.  

Welcome to Amplify the Personal Brand Entrepreneur Show today. On the show, Bob is speaking with Mark Schaefer.

Momentum doesn't begin until you act on the idea. The world is filled with millions of ideas. Momentum doesn't begin until you begin quest. I just wanted to tease that out as an important point.

Hi there and welcome back to Amplify The Personal Brand Entrepreneurship. My name is Bob Gentle, and every week I'm joined by incredible and inspiring people who share what makes their business work. If you're new to the show, take a second right now to subscribe in whichever player you use. But if you're listening on Apple podcast, make sure you hit that new plus icon in the top right hand corner of my show. That way, Apple will queue up my show every time I post new episodes. And that way before I jump into introducing this week's guest, just a quick reminder that after nearly 200 of these interviews, I've learned a thing or two about what makes business work online.

It turns out success does leave clues, and I want to give you the map. So jump over to my website and grab your copy of my Personal Brand Business Roadmap. Everything you need to start, scale or just fix your Personal brand business is your gift from me. Now, a few of my guests are in the category of legend, and this week my guest is on that list. He's the author of most of my favourite marketing books, and he's undoubtedly the catalyst to my own content journey.

He's the author of Known Marketing Rebellion, Content Code, and a bunch of others. But he's back this week to talk about his new book of Cumulative Advantage, how to Build Momentum for Your Ideas, business and Life Against all Odds Mark Schaeffer Your book has a very long title. Welcome to the show.

Well, thank you for the very kind introduction and I'm delighted to be with you again. I've been looking forward to this all week. You are a very well prepared and thoughtful interviewer, so this is great.

You are very kind. But seriously, your book does have a very long title. And what I love about it is it's not all business, and this is the important thing. Most business books, they're business. And I have a particular gift in mind when I say that, but yours is much more rounded, and I really like that about the book. So we're going to talk about finding your cumulative advantage today. But for the listener who hasn't read your book, how would you summarise it?

Well, Bob, when I write a book, first of all, writing a book is a big deal to me. It's a huge sacrifice of time and energy. Even it affects me physically because of the work that's required to really do it right. So whenever I write a book, it's not because I have a plan to write a book. I write a book when I see some compelling problem that many of my colleagues and customers and students are struggling with. And I think the question on everyone's mind right now, every marketer's mind, every business mind is, how can we be heard?

How can we be found and discovered and seen in this very noisy world of overwhelming information density? And this has sort of been the trajectory of my career, maybe for the last ten years, trying to figure that out. And I wrote the first book on influence marketing, sort of showing how the shift is occurring, where the power used to be on Wall Street and Madison Avenue with these big ad agencies. And now it's shifting down to the people. If you have a WiFi connection and a keyboard, you can have a voice, you can have influence.

Well, a lot of people did that. And now there's so much competition in the world. Here we are in 2021. And even if you're doing your best work, even if you're doing great work, chances are you're just being buried. And I'm not the kind of guy to think, oh, well, life is hard. Let's move on to something else. I want to try to figure it out. And it led me to this idea of momentum. If you're sort of stuck and you're just getting buried by this overwhelming competition, what can we possibly do to try to get to that next level?

And then this led me on my journey that started with about a year of research and reading, and then another year of writing. And here we are with cumulative advantage.

Can I ask you to maybe back up right to the beginning of what you were talking about? For me, this is a big puzzle because you're a creative guy. I'm a creative guy. We have a billion ideas every day. What was it about the idea of momentum and cumulative advantage that stood out to you and really said this? Here's the idea. I want to pin the next year of my life on.

What does that look like? I think there were two things. Number one, this idea of cumulative advantage is well known in the academic world. The research began in the 1060s in the field of sociology, and it has been proved out across many different disciplines, many different career categories, showing that if certain circumstances are in place, you can sort of build this unstoppable momentum. But really, the only reference that I could find in sort of popular culture or modern literature was a small reference in one of Malcolm Gladwell's books.

I believe it was the tipping point. Other than that, it was a blank slate. And I saw this opportunity to apply all this research to real lives, real businesses, real problems. So that was the first thing that was interesting to me. The second thing was that this was something that was accessible as you get into it. What you really just sort of dawns on you. That the key to building momentum isn't necessarily built on having a million dollars in the bank or having a degree from Harvard.

It's really about being aware of how the world really works. How did these people get to these positions? How did these companies get built into these great brands? And when you go back down to the founding story of these famous people or these famous brands, there are some common patterns. And once you understand those patterns, which I illustrate in my book, you'll never see the world the same way again because you'll see this pattern over and over again. And then you start seeing your own life in the context of this pattern and the opportunities that are before you and the opportunities to create momentum for yourself.

So it was a really exciting idea for me.

So one of the things with momentum, if we take it from its physics perspective, momentum requires force in order for it to be achieved. One of the things and in this sense, we're talking about effort, I think, is probably where that force needs to come from. One of the challenges that I see a lot of people faced with is if I'm going to build momentum, if it's going to take a lot of effort, it better be worth it. And a lot of people aren't really confident enough in their own ideas to really put in that effort.

It's a little bit like I heard. I don't know if he claimed the term, but it was Hal Elrod. He said, if you're going to put your ladder up, you better make sure it's up against the right wall. And it brings me to this sort of conversation around purpose. That momentum. If you're going to put in the effort, it needs to be aligned with your purpose. So many people, they don't really seem to have honed in on what that purpose is. I'm not really sure what I'm trying to ask.

Let me interrupt you here because there are so many important points woven into it isn't quite a question yet.

I can sense you know where I want to go.

First of all, let me just tease out a few things that I need to amplify. First of all, it's this idea of the initial force. Okay, so the initial force, it can be an idea, but not an idea alone. Momentum doesn't begin until you act on the idea. The world is filled with millions of ideas. Momentum doesn't begin until you begin the quest. So I just wanted to tease that out as an important point. You also mentioned this idea of confidence, and honestly, this is something I struggle with.

I don't know how to overcome this in other people. I do a lot of coaching in this area. There's a place on my website where people can sign up for an hour of my time. I've done hundreds of these coaching sessions. I can help people with almost any problem that they're having with their business, except one when they have this impostor syndrome or this lack of confidence. I just don't know how to solve that easily or quickly other than to encourage them and point out that you are a worthy person.

This is a worthy idea, and you should pursue it. So that is hard. The third thing you talked about was putting your ladder up against the right wall. And here's the thing about creating something new. You never really know if it's the right wall. Anytime you create something new and put it into the world, there is some element of risk. There just is it might be if you're an absolute authority in a certain realm of business or a certain specialty, well, then the risk might be very low because you have this inherent ability to read the room and see where we need to go next.

If you're trying to go to some adjacent area where maybe you're not as familiar, there's going to be more risk, but there's always some uncertainty. There's always some risk. And the beauty of our day today, Bob, is that overall, the risk is so much lower for all of us because we have the Internet. There's lots of ways to test ideas to create this minimum viable product that Eric Reese writes about. Compared to when I was a young man in business, to start a new business, you probably had to build something you needed financing.

It was really hard to test things out because you didn't have the Internet. So there were three really important points in your statement there. So I wanted to tease that out. And the idea of purpose, one of the things I think purpose ties to consistency. To be successful, you can't give up easily. And one of the things I found when I wrote my book Known, which is about personal branding, I interviewed 97 people around the world who are known in their field all different categories of business.

There was this pattern that came out, Bob. In my interviews. Eventually all of them talked about purpose and the role that purpose plays is this idea that when you're down, when you're being pushed down and things are going wrong, purpose is the thing that keeps you going. That helps you not give up and you can't give up. You need a certain amount of tenacity resilience and grit to be successful at starting something new to creating new momentum. Purpose is really the fuel that keeps you going when things get tough, because, you know there's something bigger than you going on here and you're not going to give up.

So from what you were saying there, and I loved that you teased that out from my garbage, frankly. But there was a couple of things that really stood out for me, and anybody who's known me for a long time will know as a businessman, I was a solo player for a very long time. Probably in business 20 years. I didn't really trouble myself with mentors or masterminds or anything like that. And my business never really. It was what you would expect a little local agency. But then my perspective shifted and I'm going to introduce the idea of a quest which you talked about for a moment that in order to really achieve transformation in your business, you have to really take on this idea of the quest you need to be searching for purpose, I guess.

And the thing with a quest, and this is really where it comes round to confidence is quest implies trials. It implies challenges, but it also implies there will be other people who you'll meet on the journey, who you will learn from. You have to be open to that. And this can be mentors. This can be peers, this could be fellow travellers. This could be people that you help on a dark night from all of those people you learn and your confidence grows. But if you never engage in the quest, you stagnate and you don't change, you don't progress, and you don't proceed.

For me that journey. In the last five years, I've achieved more in my business in the last five years than having the last 15 because of embracing that quest concept.

Let me ask you something, Bob. When you started your discussion there, you talked about how early in your business you were sort of a solopreneur going on alone, and the result was kind of like you expected one of the things in your journey in your growth. Did you start reaching out to mentors and masterminds? Did you start reaching out to help to get help from others? Because that's another key idea in the book. I'm not the poster child for seeking help, so I was just curious if that had any impact on the progress in your business.

I did. I made quite a concerted effort to go looking for mentors and role models that were doing things.

Yeah, that's an important point.

It is because I think that it's important to come at business and personal transformation with an element of humility. It doesn't really matter who you are. You have to be open to learn from other people, because that's essentially why we're on Earth. It's to engage with other people, to be open to catalyst for transformation. And that's getting a bit on the woo edge, I suppose.

Oh, that's woo.

But I think there was another thing that I was going to discuss, and it really is this question of purpose, which, for me, has been a parallel challenge for the longest time. And I've recently come to what for me, is a very useful way to imagine purpose because my personality type, it doesn't really take bold action unless there's a grand vision. And for a long time there wasn't one. And when I'm speaking to my clients, they don't really know what their purpose with a capital P is.

And the way I've come to see it, is it's a little bit like a will of the wisp. It's always on the horizon purpose. You never really have a full grip on it, but you may have an idea of what it might be. So what I've learned is whatever that is, just start moving towards it because it's going to move on the horizon anyway. But as long as you keep chasing it and this is really bringing in the quest element again, you'll get closer to it, you'll get closer to it.

But you'll learn on the way. And as long as you've been following this flame on the horizon, you're going to be at least moving in the vague direction of your purpose. Purpose changes over time. For me that's been useful.

What I found is that in the course of those many interviews I did, some people had a very clear purpose from the beginning, it was really the furnace in their heart that was moving them forward. And I would put myself in this category that the purpose sort of came to them over time. In my corporate career, I had a great, great corporate career. I just was very fortunate to work for an amazing company that gave me tremendous opportunities.


I was sort of buried in a company in a company with tens of thousands of employees in this global reach. And your sphere of influence is pretty small. It's the people that you interact with in this company. So when I started my own business, I think it's been 13 or 14 years ago. Now I couldn't have imagined how big my sphere of influence could be. It just wasn't even in my consciousness. And then they got to a point where I started to realise that people really listen to me.

They pay attention to me, they study me, they take action on what I do and what I say. I can set an example for many people out in the world. And so all of a sudden, this purpose sort of came to me that I can send ripples through the world through personal lives and really send ripples through history by my impact. And I think you'd be lucky to hear one time in your life, someone saying, Mark, you've changed my life or you've changed my business. And this is something I hear every single week.

The other day, someone told me I started my business because of you, because of this advice that you gave me. And here I am. And now I have all these employees and I'm creating income and safety for other families in my community.


The purpose sort of came to me over time that I realised that I have this opportunity to have a platform to send good and hope and sometimes even wisdom through the world. And so my purpose is I will not let you down, whoever you are. If you're listening to Bob Show today, if you're reading my blog or reading my book. I'm not going to let you down. I'm going to give you everything I've got. And if you spend time with me, it's going to be worth your time.

I take my role very seriously. And I'll give you an example. I got an email yesterday from an 8th grader in some school, and they're doing some project about social media. And the kids reached out to me and said, Our job is to interview somebody about social media. Can I interview you? So I wrote back and I said, yeah, do you want to have a call or do you want to do an email? Well, there's something about my email that got rejected by the school email server.

The kid maybe doesn't even have his own email. So came to the school. So now I'm thinking I need to call the school to connect with these kids, because again, I don't know where this is going to lead. He's not going to hire me. He's not going to buy my books. But it's an opportunity to connect with someone and send a ripple through the world in some new way. So especially if it's someone young or a student, someone just starting out looking for advice. I really never say no.

That's a big part of my DNA and my purpose right now.

Yeah. Different people are motivated by very different things. Some people are very much on the money end. Others are much more on the impact on the legacy. And and most people are somewhere on a strange spectrum somewhere in between. But I guess I'd like to maybe look at being super practical for a minute and think there are lots of people listening right now and they're thinking, Bob, get Mark back to practical cumulative advantage, please. And I think what I'd like to do is let's take a life coach.

And there are probably a spectrum of different kinds of life coach, but they're a good example for me, because in the US, you might call a dime a dozen in the UK, it's ten a Penny. They are everywhere on social media. So for them, it's really hard to stand out. So what are the kinds of questions they should be asking themselves if they want to discover this cumulative advantage and start building momentum in that direction?

Well, I think there are a couple of key ideas. So let's go back to this idea that you proposed around this initial effort, this initial push, the energy that begins with momentum and it starts here. You need to really be clear about what are the advantages that you have in your life now? Like I said, it doesn't necessarily have to be money or education. It could be. But it could be an idea. It could be a perspective. It could be your heritage, your experience, it could be where you live, might be an advantage.

It could be your connections. So there are all these different things that can create some sort of advantage. Now, we talked about following this idea following this proposal. There are so many life coaches out there, and I think that the big issue with life coaches is they're not really focused on the specific problem they can solve for you. It's like too focused on their life experiences or it's too generic. So what I'd like to see if someone comes to your website, this is what I want to see right away.

This is the problem I solve, and this is how I uniquely solve it. So that's a good way to begin momentum. Now, the next step is applying this. If you really want to blow this out, you need to be relevant to something going on in the world. In the book, I call this the seam. Where are shifts in the world? Where are fractures in the status quo? And the good news is for anyone listening is that we are in the biggest fracture in the status quo in history is called a pandemic.

Everything is changing and people are reimagining or renegotiating how they work. Actually, if they work right, we're in the big resignation era right now. It's in the news all over the place. So where I work, if I work, how I work, how do I work and home school my kids? How do I work and handle all this stress? How do I handle the strain of covet? How do I handle the grief of not being able to go to Europe or go to my favourite restaurant or go see live music?

How do I handle all the polarisation going on in our world today? These are all fractures in the status quo that would be relevant to a life coach. And so you need to be aware. How are my special capabilities, my special skills, my special heritage, my ideas. How is that relevant right now? That's what strategy is about today. It's not about a five year plan or a five year vision. It's like, how do I help and serve people right now and then also stay aware of how the world is evolving, how the world is changing because there are going to be new fractures opening up that are relevant to you.

And nobody's saying you can't do that too.


You can't apply your talents to a new area, a new demographic, a new age group, a new part of the world where some fracture is opening up. So you need to be constantly in this mode of sort of testing your relevance. The journey is about relentless relevance, and that means being relevant right now, being relevant to a situation. If your website hasn't really been updated in five years and you're not really successful, you need to sort of reimagine how you need to show up in the world right now and then you need to do it six months from now and twelve months from now and be on a journey of relentless relevance to drive your business.

That makes so much sense. And I think there's a lot of good reasons to go and read the book there. I think something I would like to dig into a little bit is anybody that's learning anything new at the beginning? It's really hard, and lots of people come to things like learning to ski or learning to drive or learning yoga. It doesn't matter what when you're starting something new, it's really hard. And on the first day you probably thought you could learn it in a week and you suddenly realised this is probably going to take me a year to get any good people give up very, very early.

What I'm curious to know is on this cumulative is a very difficult word for me to say. I got to say, you're not alone on this journey. What are the sort of signals that people should be looking for in order to tell them I may be going in the wrong direction or, hey, this might be working.

Well, I think what I see in the world and this has certainly been validated by many, many others is that when you're starting something new, maybe you'll get lucky and it'll start producing right away.


If you're beginning with establishing new awareness, new connections, new relationships, creating validity for yourself in a new way, that's probably going to take some time. And one of the things I encourage people to do is the easy way to measure your success is if money is coming in. Okay, Yeehaw, things are working, but you also need to be to pay attention to qualitative signals. So a quantitative signal is something you can count like money. But a qualitative signal is maybe someone becomes aware of you and they invite you on a podcast or they invite you to contribute to a blog, or they want you to speak at a local event or they saw your content somewhere and they wanted to just ask you a question.

Those are all qualitative measures that show it's starting to work. And as long as you're seeing momentum with these qualitative measures, and in my personal branding book known, I actually propose, like a spreadsheet that you track these things because as long as it's happening, it's bubbling up, it's bubbling up, it's bubbling up. And then you could be right ahead of that hockey stick when it starts to go up. So my advice is as long as you're seeing at least qualitative measures of progress, don't give up.

It's working if absolutely nothing is happening, and I usually advise people to at least give it 18 months to give it a chance. Then maybe it's time to pivot. Maybe the timing wasn't right. I've got an entire chapter in the Cumulative Advantage book about the timing and putting yourself in a position to succeed to take advantage of the timing. If the timing is right, if you get there and your instinct was right. There's a whole chapter that helps you get ready to kind of blow through that scene, to blow through that hole and have success.

I think for me, Cumulative Advantage is a brilliant companion to known so known for the listener. For me, it was a very big influence because it was lots of ordinary people doing ordinary things online that over time led to some extraordinary results.

Yes, exactly.

But also you could see the thread running through each of those stories that those were people who took the quest and that they were never on it on their own. There's something about people who engage in this content journey that they recognise each other and they support each other in ways that if you're not participating in that seem very unrealistic. But it's very profound. I've known people that I've never met who will go miles out of their way to help me because we're on that journey together.

And Cumulative Advantage really brings a lot more instruction and structure and motivation and storytelling to that whole quest, which, for me, is really useful. So anybody listening and you're thinking my content game. I'm just not quite lighting it up. These two books that will give you some really clear insight on whether actually, maybe you need to pivot. But don't be scared of pivot. Pivot could just be a slight adjustment by a few degrees. Yes, it could be leaning into an elements where you've maybe been holding back previously showing up as a bit more authentically yourself rather than trying to pretend to be somebody else who's already successful in your space.

I'm really glad you made the connection between the two books. A lot of people are seeing them as almost like part one and part two. Here are the four steps that everybody goes through to build a personal brand. And then now how do you take it to the next level and build momentum? That's Cumulative advantage.

Yeah. So I guess, Mark, I could keep talking about this for the rest of the day, but I'm not going to because for the listener, we had some technical blips getting this going. So I'm very grateful you're still here at all. But for the person listening, if they were thinking, okay, I'm going to take some action now, what would be the one thing that you would want to take away assuming they're not going to be smart enough to read your book? What's the one thing that you would want them to do after listening to this?

Well, it would be a shame if they didn't read the book.

I know, right.

And it kind of goes back to this purpose thing, right? Is that, look, nobody really gets rich these days writing business books. So if someone buys my book, I'm not going to get rich from it. But I am going to touch you in a special way. There's no fluff in my books. There's an idea. There's an inspiration on every single page. So there's a lot that goes into it. And so I think reading the book, it would help because it does work. I think the number one thing that you really need to do is start with this idea of awareness.


What are my advantages. What do I bring to the world in a special way, in a unique way, and start being aware of what's going on in the world and applying this in the moment. Let me just give you one quick example, because this might sound impractical, but it really is very granular and practical. And let me give you an example. When COVID began last March here in America, I was an early adopter. My wife got sick. I tested positive March 31, 2020. My wife was very sick.

I got very sick for a long time. And when I sort of awoke from my haze, my business has crashed. I'm a speaker. Everything got cancelled. I'm a teacher. My classes got cancelled. I'm a consultant. Everything got cancelled because my customers were saying, Mark, we love you, but our supply chain just crashed and all our employees are getting sick. We'll see you later, which is the right decision. Here I am dispensing marketing advice, writing about marketing, talking about marketing, podcasting about marketing. And that's irrelevant. I was not relevant right now.

It took me a few days of disorientation of trying to figure out where do I fit in the world today to realise I am a teacher. That's what I do if I write, if I speak on my blog, whatever, I am a teacher. So that's my advantage. That's my purpose. That's what I'm good at. The world needs me to teach something else right now. I'm not relevant in this moment. There's a new fracture in the status quo and it's this people are whacked out. They're disoriented, they're panicked, they're scared, they're grieving.

I need to teach something else right now. So I completely pivoted my content. And I started writing about, how do you handle this disorientation? How am I handling it? How am I looking at this pandemic as a realistic opportunity? One of the most popular blog posts I wrote was, how do you sell things to people when they're grieving and scared? I wrote about anxiety. I wrote about handling uncertainty and the traffic to my blog doubled, and some people said, Mark, the stuff that you're writing, this is the best advice out there.

You're the only one really hitting this stuff head on. So I combined all these things into an ebook. All these writings called Fight to the Other Side gave it away for free. The last page of the ebook said, if you love the ideas in this ebook, you're really going to love the talk that I've developed for your company. If you need someone to inspire you at your Zoom meeting of your leadership, your weekly or monthly leadership meeting, I can come in and do a 15 minutes talk or a 30 minutes talk.

And by July and August I was having record months. So that's what I mean. What I was good at in the moment became irrelevant. I had to reexamine my life and what I was doing and say, look, this is what I'm good at. I've always been a great teacher, so I need to teach something that's relevant in this new seam that's opened up and it saved my business.

I think a lot of people wouldn't have that, but I can only characterise this dynamic humility to allow themselves to pivot in that way. I think a lot of people I saw them just keep battering on the same doors they always had. But the world is asking for something different from you, right?

That's exactly right. And it gets back to this idea of relentless relevance back in the 80s and the 90s. In my early days in business, strategy was something that was static. But today strategy is something dynamic because number one, the world is changing so fast. And number two, because of the Internet and all this amazing technology we have, we have the ability to change quickly with it. I would guess that almost nobody listening to your show owns equipment that's bolted to the centre of the Earth that's immovable and makes one certain product, right?

I would guess almost everybody listening has the ability to pivot in a constant kind of way. And I'm not saying to pivot in a constant way, but I'm saying just be aware of the new opportunities that can create new momentum for your business, I think.

Funny story. I used to largely work for the oil and gas industry, and they literally had their equipment bolted to the centre of the Earth, and they struggled to pivot.

Me too. I was in the aluminium business.

But I think, yeah, small businesses, medium sized businesses. They're different. Just because it's what you've always done doesn't mean it's what you always have to do. And if you do do the work to find out what it is that lights you up, you might find it's slightly to the left or the right of what you're currently doing. And that's where you might find all the opportunity you've been missing. So, Mark, thank you very much for your time. You've been great value, awesome guest. I've had a great time, but I need to end with the one question I ask everyone what's one thing you do now that you wish you started five years ago.

I get variations of this question a lot, and I'll give sort of an unusual answer, and I'm sure that doesn't surprise you. I seem to go against the grain a lot, and, you know, everybody makes mistakes, everybody wishes they had perfect information. But the thing that I realised about myself is that everything that happened was part of a path that was part of a journey, and I wouldn't change a thing because the mistakes I made and the problems I encountered just help me be a better person helped me be who I am today.

And I'm not really being flippant or trite here. I really believe it. When I look back, even at the hardest times of my life, at the darkest times of my life, I realised that it led to something better. Ultimately, it led to where I am today that, you know better. And so I'm really happy where I am today and I wouldn't be there if I was perfect five years ago or ten years ago or 20 years ago. Being imperfect is part of the process. And I think you need to embrace that and really forgive yourself and learn from the lessons and realise that's part of the human experience.

I think embrace messy. I think that's one of my favourite answers. Mike, if people want to go further with you, if they want to connect with you, how would you like them to do that?

It's really easy to find me. Everything is at businessgrow.


People rarely remember how to spell Shaffer. It's so funny. Sometimes, Bob, even people will start talking to me and they'll say, oh, wait a minute. You're the one that wrote the book, so it's really hard to remember me sometimes. But if you can remember, businesses grow, you can find the books that we've talked about today, including Cumulative Advantage. You can find my blog. I give away my best ideas and my best advice for free every week. I've had an amazing run on my podcast, The Marketing Companion.

We're now in our 9th year and I've kind of relaunched it in a new, exciting way that's really reenergized me. You can cheque that out and all my social media connections are there. I basically follow everybody back on LinkedIn, so if you want to connect with me there, I'd be happy to hear from you.

Mark Schaefer, you have been an awesome guest. Thank you so much for your time and I can't wait to see you again soon.

Yes. Thank you, Bob. Thank you again. You're absolutely the best. I appreciate you.

You're so kind. Before I go, just a quick reminder to subscribe and join our Facebook group. You'll find a link in the show notes or visit Amplifyme FM Insiders. Also connect with me wherever you hang out, you'll find me on all the social platforms at Bobgentle, if you enjoyed the show, then love a five star review on Apple podcast, it would make my day. And if you shared the show with a friend, you would literally make my golden list. My name is Bob Gentle. Thanks to you for listening.

And I'll see you next week.

Thanks for listening!

It means a lot to me and to the guests. If you enjoyed listening then please do take a second to rate the show on iTunes.  Every podcaster will tell you that iTunes reviews drive listeners to our shows so please let me know what you thought and make sure you subscribe using your favourite player using the links below.