Have you ever wondered what writing a book can do for your career or your business? I've heard a lot of stories so I wanted to hear from the guy who makes that happen for people like Pat Flynn and Dana Malstaff. 

Azul Terronez is a writing coach and runs Authors Who Lead and in this episode he walks me through the process of writing the kind of book which underpins and powers so many incredible online businesses.

Links and mentions

Azul's Website : https://authorswholead.com/

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Have you ever wondered why writing a book can do for your business or your career? I've heard a lot of stories, so I wanted to hear from the guy who makes that happen. Podcasters like Paatelainen and Dana Mustafah Azle Tranny's is a writing coach and runs leaders who sail. In this episode. He walked me through the process of writing the kind of book which underpins and powers many incredible online businesses. Hi there and welcome back to Amplify the Digital Marketing Entrepreneur podcast.

I'm Bob Gentle and every Monday I'm joined by amazing people who share what makes their business work. If you're new to the show, then take a second right now to subscribe so you don't miss new episodes and you can grab some older ones when you're done with this one. Don't forget as well, you can join our Facebook community, just visit, amplify me, dot form forward, slash insiders and you'll be taken right there. So welcome. Come along and let's meet as.

OK. This week, I am delighted to welcome Azul Trueness to the show as well. Why don't you start by just telling people who don't know who you are a little bit about who you are, where you are, and the kind of work you do? Great.

I think so much so. I must tyrannous. I am a co-founder of authors who lead and we help leaders write books that people love. And currently I'm in Austin, Texas, have been a nomad for quite some time as the world is. It's time to settle down a little more for a bit, and our company helps publish books and helps authors write their message. That makes an impact in the world through books, words and speeches.

And I have to say, I follow you on Instagram and I'm always jealous of where you are. Always that warm it usually where I live and where I live in the northeast of Scotland, it's almost like the opposite. It's always cold. Well, for one year we chased summer and we didn't have a winter.

That was a really cool year.

That sounds like my ideal year, but my wife would not enjoy the ride. It was a tough new a new thing for us, but it was really cool experience. It's a really good idea. So when you talk about authors who lead, you're not talking science fiction authors or romance is typically business authors, am I right?

Yes, typically, I would say a thought leader style book or book where you're building credibility authority that people come to us for. What they're trying to do is establish themselves, grow their their business or their platform because they want to get paid more for their speaking or they want to make a bigger impact. So that's what we say that we do, is we help those authors. We do have some people that write fiction in our world, but there tend to work with us when they're writing the non-fiction book because it's a different animal for them to tackle.


And when you say authors who lead, how important is the leadership element of that? But I'm curious, obviously, you give your name, your business that name for a reason. Yeah. So I'd quite like to see what that really means for you in terms of a mission. Yeah.

What was really interesting is that we used to work with just about anybody would walk through our doors. Of course, as you start a business, you want to kind of keep a broad perspective about what it could be.

What we noticed was that oftentimes people who weren't doing it for a bigger purpose wouldn't finish their book because the statistics around the people who want to write a book versus the people who actually publish are very small. So we found that in order to have better success, that we need to attract a more specific avatar specific ideal client.

And by just putting the word leader in there, people that see it and go, oh, I'm not a leader, they actually self-selecting out because if they don't perceive themselves as a leader or someone who's going to stand in this truth that they're writing about, then writing a book might be more of a hobby or a legacy for their children, which is not a bad thing. It just means I want that. I want to make sure they understand they don't have to be a leader to work with us.

But that's their aspiration. That's their goal is you're leading this movement, this thinking, this this way of understanding the world through this book. If you are, for example, Chris Dukkha or Flynn, you're leading a movement to get people to behave or act in a certain way. And that's a leadership style book. So that was an intentional decision for making that choice. We don't of course, we take people who who aren't leaders, but we want to make sure that it's clear that our company's job is to help leaders transform.

And the way we do that is with the book.

I think I the the mechanics or the positioning that a book can permit you is quite well known. And you see it everywhere. There are people, like you said, Pat Flynn, Chris Tucker, also people like Daniel Priestley, Mark Schaefer, Michael Hyatt, people like that. They've all positioned themselves through the books that they produce as experts in a particular space. How often is it the book that's delivering that? It's obviously the book isn't delivering it, it's simply announcing them.

How often are they already leaders on how much does the book propel them into into that potential, if you like? I think it propels them exponentially. A book is the platform on which you are able to launch. So if you are such a cynic and you have an amazing TED talk, that's great. But Simon Sinek with a book, for example, becomes infinitely more useful to the world. So what that means is people already make an assumption of credibility.

If you're an author, that being just a speaker or a podcast or a business owner doesn't. People for centuries have known what. Is and have known that it has been a position of status to be an author, so it gives people like the media a chance they may not interview you because you're a business owner, but they they might reconsider if you're an author because it says, I know a specific topic I can speak to.

I'm clear about that message. I've made the commitment to write this. And so authorities granted to you for being an author.

And I think even if you're new to an industry, in fact, we we often tell people who are like maybe they're still in their 9:00 to 5:00 or they're trying to pivot into a new industry. They're writing a book can really help them gain that leverage that they, you know, might have gained in the past and some other way. So I think they go hand in hand. And so I've seen people who were not known go to speak, and I'm one of them because getting a chance to do 10x is a great thing.

But I wouldn't have been invited just because I'm a teacher. I was a school teacher, a principal for 25 years, and just being a director or headmaster of a school doesn't necessarily make you as credible as it does to be an author so it can propel you into a space that you're aiming for.

I think there's definitely some interesting psychology there. And the phrase that I loved was this assumption of credibility that's that really illustrates it very, very nicely. One thing I've always wondered, and you would be a brilliant person to ask about this, is you have people like James Altantuya, for example, who writes on lots of different topics, and he's a genuine polymath. He's a very bright guy. And then you have others who consistently write on the same topic.

And it's always been a point of curiosity for me why James Altucher could pull that off, but I don't think everybody could pull it off or should pull it off. So my question really is, how can how important is it to be consistent as an author on the topics that you write about? And the reason I ask that question is if you want to be known as the guy who does the thing, consistency is quite important.

Great question. I think that James Outdraw Persona is he's a tinkerer and tries things and he's an expert in thinking. So what he shows you is that in his books he's trying to push the boundaries of thought and what you perceived as is important. So his his books do have a common theme, which is I'm going to most people think this, but the truth is really that.

So he's really pushing on that notion wherever he pokes his head into. But you can easily if you're not clear about that uniqueness and this is what makes it work for James and for anybody else, is he's using his unique ability to see the world differently as the way in which he positions himself in his books. If he decides to write in real estate or he decides to write on cryptocurrency, it's still going to be James perspective on those things. It's not the topic.

He's not writing about the content. He's writing about how he sees those things. It could easily happen that you write a book and it can pigeonholed you. For example, I've had a client who said, you know, I don't want to be known for the be the Kickstarter woman or the person who helps do go fund me campaigns anymore. But I can't seem to get away from it because my book still attracts people. And like that's because you wrote a book about a topic that's that's contextual to that thing, but you didn't write about how you see it as useful and so you can't ever pivot out of it.

So you've got to write about what makes you unique in the world if you're going to make an impact. It's not the content that people see. They're looking at you. So you have two ways to write a book, in my opinion. You can write a book that's transactional, which means, hey, I have 101 secrets to master to talk, for example. That makes you an expert in this information. Maybe, but it's very transactional. It's a very how-to.

And someone else can do the hundred and two things you can do easily. They could mimic you. Right. And that happens often. But if you write a book that's transactional and want a transformational experience, you're going to be let down. A transformational book is where the author goes through some epiphany about who they are in the world and what they stand for. And they start to see themselves differently and start to share those transformations with the audience. And let me explain, because this can be a little confusing.

Well, when I was a child, I had a a science kit and they have a magnifying glass in there, you know, the kind that they were plastic, but they were still you know, you could look at bugs and sex or whatever, and I would use that to do that occasionally.

But it also used to burn a leaf or like my friends lay gunfire or burn an ant. Unfortunately, I'm sad to say that I was doing things like that.

But what's amazing about a magnifying glass is the same sunshine that you hold your hand out and does nothing but warm it with a magnifying glass will burn it and. We're all experiencing the same sunshine in the world, meaning content is everywhere, the same content is everywhere. If you go to a YouTube channel or podcasts, we're all talking about the same stuff.

So sunshine isn't the thing that you're trying to sell. Even though people are selling sunshine and writing a unique book and getting a unique message out there, it's about the lens. The lens transforms the sunshine into a hyper focused light that ignites and most people disregard their uniqueness. They are the lens. You are the lens that makes the unique sunshine change and bend and transform. And that's what I think people do. That's what James Altvater does. He always puts his perspective so uniquely in there that he could be talking about anything and his followers will listen because they know that this is the way he is.

And some people make the mistake of thinking that content is the thing that they should focus on. And really, it's them if their uniqueness that they focus on and then produce the results on the other side. I love that you are.

The lens on that for me is an important thing, because one thing that comes up again and again with clients when I'm talking about content and content marketing is something that I've personally struggled with a lot. When I moved towards, for example, if I if I'm invited to speak, what am I going to speak about? All the things that I could speak about have been spoken about before. And this idea of you're the lens, it's your perspective that people are buying.

It's not the information per say, but it's the experience around that information that makes you think about it, think about the people that you would like spend more than anything. It's that that makes you drawn to them. Let's pick someone that's not an entrepreneur, because this might help what she is, but that's not what she's peddling. Entrepreneurship. That would be a burning brown, the the speaker who talks about shame and all different types. She's a researcher.

She's a researcher. The reason her TED talk caught fire wasn't because she was a researcher talking about her. Her work is because she got on stage and said, I'm a therapist who needs a therapist, that that moment of not just talking about vulnerability in her work, but becoming vulnerable in her work. That's what made people leave, leaving and go. Huh. Interesting, because we don't need more researchers to talk about the things that they have observed.

We need more people to say. And so that means this because I'm I'm showing you my way of thinking. And that's what makes that unique. And most people don't see their own uniqueness. And I think yeah, I think I heard this first from Ray Edwards. But it's a thing that's around, which is you can't read the label from inside of the bottle.

You you just can't see yourself that way. So that's why people come to work with us as a you don't notice how amazing you are because all this time you're thinking you're a bottle of of of a pop or soda and really your beautiful bottle of champagne. You just don't know it. You have no idea. You just assume that because you're swimming in there that that's what you are.

So one other challenge that I've come across is, for example, when I come towards the idea of, OK, I'm going to write a book and I'm sure this must be a common experience is in my head. It has to be the universal theory of everything. It has to be the Philosopher's Stone or the Tesseract. It it needs to be everything. And how do you work with people to move them away from the universal theory of everything towards that one idea that actually needs to be in the book?

Yeah, it's a great cause as well. Oftentimes what I notice is most books are born in pairs. They don't ever come. I book ideas don't come on their own. I notice what that means usually is that people overstuff a book. They put three or four books into one because they think they're the topics related. So I must cover all these topics. And when book babies happen, they come together, they start to multiply like rabbits. So if you have two ideas that you don't separate, they become four and then become five.

They become ten producing of this book that never ends. So I usually try to tell people we have to pull this apart and take just one of these little rabbits and work with them. Because what you're asking a reader to do is make a transformation, a shift, a belief. But they're not textbooks. You're not trying to tell people, learn all this stuff, memorize it, take a test. That's the academic way of using a book. It's not very useful for the rest of us.

Otherwise we would go storm the library trash bins and get textbooks and put them on our shows.

But we don't. And if we do, it's because we just paid so much we just can't seem to get rid of them. But for the most part, we don't use textbooks as a way to learn. It's unfortunate that academia hasn't figured this out, but what we usually go for is the hopes of seeing something different. And if you think about a book or an idea or concept in a book, more like a journey, that you get to be the person that leads them on, but you don't get to finish the journey with them, then you you feel a little more confident that I don't have to tell them all things.

And that's the example I give people like you for both sailing early sailors. You know, explorers leaving from Portugal or Spain headed on to ships that are parallel path, except for we have a three percent deviation on our rudder. So the first several, maybe miles, were sailing seemingly together until we start to move apart.

By the time we finish our journey, one of us will end up in the Caribbean and one of us will end up in Brazil with that small little difference. All you're asking your reader to do is say, hey, you're looking over there, turn your head and look here. You're not asking them to do a 180 degree turn because that's too much to ask of a reader. You're just asking them to pay attention differently than they were. Some small shift, some three percent shift, some small deviation so that now that they pay attention differently, their whole life will change over the course of the time that they're doing this thing.

And when they land, they should be in a different place because of you, because the rudder, the most powerful besides the sails, the most powerful thing in the ship without a rudder, it doesn't matter if you have sails, you won't go. But it sits beneath the water line. It's very quiet. It does very little movement. And that's what your book should do. Your book isn't this big fuss. It's shoving people in a direction and so don't overstuff it or overcomplicate it.

It's a simple tool that gets people to notice you differently than before.

I love that. I think right at the beginning you said you start the journey with someone. You go along with them for a while, but you don't finish the journey with them. And I think I imagine that a lot of people, when they're coming to the idea of a book, they do think it has to be everything tied up with a neat bow at the end. And that's not really going to work for the for the reader. That's not offering a personal transformation.

That's just offering almost a prescription, which isn't really going to be a form of universal benefit. Oh, yeah, I really like that. Yeah. Because the truth is, you're assuming they're going to be you. They're not you. There's somebody who is at least interested in this topic. Curious. It's the mistake. And I always when I speak this boldly about these topics as being an educator for so many years that we did so much wrong.

I did so much wrong in that I made assumptions that kids needed more information to change and transform their thinking, their beliefs, their values. And what I really need to do is point them in a direction where they think differently so that they can make a step forward about what they're learning not to tell them. This is what you should learn. This is what you should know. That's just a mistake. And learning. You never learn something until you choose to, so you can't teach anyone anything that they don't want to learn.

So in your book, you're just making a suggestion for them to pay attention differently. And if they do, then their whole life shifts. And it's the reason that we as humans doing something as simple as standing on one foot doesn't seem difficult until you close your eyes and then it's almost impossible at first because you're used to it this way. And when you close your eyes, your whole balance changes because your eyes are actually a bouncing tool for your body until your body starts to use some other mechanism to balance you.

So if you're if you're curious about how that shift works, do that stand on one foot. No problem. Close one eye and then close both or you don't do that. Just gently look up. It changes everything about your balance, but that's all you're doing with the book. Don't try to make them flip backwards and turn around and run a different direction. That's a that's a big expectation and spend more of your time convincing them of the same single thing over and over in multiple ways so that at the end they go, I get it, I get what you're saying.

So I'm not going to do that right now because it would probably make a big noise. And I break things up. Great. I'll do it.

Now, if you're driving, don't do it. Now, you mentioned that you were a principal school principal and now you're now you're very well known in the author space within the business world.

How did that happen? Because that is quite a transformation. And I don't imagine that something that happens overnight, it must have been done with a degree of intentionality or something happened. Happened, right.

Well, that's a great point. So I always had an inclination for being an entrepreneur. And the problem was I was really good at failing.

So I tried many things. It didn't work. But as a school teacher, you know, you're always thinking and processing. And at least I was and I thought, you know what? I can't figure out this online thing I kept trying to do, you know, these niche sites and create a website and try to drive traffic. And in the early 2000s, it was, you know, create a product or do affiliate marketing get a niche and drive traffic to it.

And you can get ad sense, you know, from Google. And I was trying those things and I I'd owned websites like cheap wedding ideas, dot com and recover from bankruptcy. I had all these ideas, but I couldn't get them to work. I didn't have that either to the. Nicole, savvy or maybe even the persistence to care enough, but I did try I tried lots of those things and I just, you know, I was working, but I knew I wanted to make my living online so that I could travel, see the world.

You know, my kids were getting closer to finishing school. And I wanted to I told them when they were young. Look, when when you're out of school, I'm hitting the road.

I'm going to go see the world. So they already knew it was coming. But how I was going to do I didn't know. But what I noticed is that if I could learn from somebody who was doing this, I had a better shot.

I learned really well in person with someone, you know, like working, connecting with them than I did from a book or course so I could get inspired by a book, of course. But really for me to get it really helped for me to be connected with humans.

And I wanted to write about this notion of the art of apprenticeship, this thing that I felt like was lost in that if you learn from somebody, you really become the master over time.

But apprenticeship is sort of lost as an idea. Everyone wants a mentor because mentors tell you what to do, help you there. But apprenticeships about servitude, like you're indentured, you're not there as a guest. You're there to sweep the floor, empty the trash. You take out the filings, you know, deliver things, get up early, stay late. And if you're lucky, the master will say, grab that old piece of crap and he'll let me show you this or you try a little bit here and there.

That's what apprenticeships about. And I think people have lost their way when they want to learn. So I wrote a book. I said, I'm going to write this book I've been thinking about for twenty four years and never wrote.

And I've been helping people, especially young people, publish books. I helped authors as little young as 13, 11 years old, write and publish books, but I had never done it myself.

And one of my students said, Where's your book? I said, Well, hmm.

And they looked at me like, oh, OK, well, why don't you write it?

They're like, and I had a moment that I was like, What if I lie? I just say, are I think of something? And I was like, because I'm afraid they're like, you don't need to be afraid. You'll do great. And then they walked off. So I wrote that book in thirty days, the one that had been on my mind for 24 years because I finally had a purpose.

I was like, I'm going to write a book about how you can get a mentor by serving them and becoming an apprentice of theirs. And that's what I'm going to do. And I'm going to prove this model works somehow. And I wrote that book and I signed up the thirty days before I did it. I signed up for Chris Tucker and Pat Flynn's one day business breakthrough in San Diego. They had twenty spots. They said if you come, you sit with us and we help you with your business.

So I ordered I paid it on my credit card. I didn't have the money. And then I realized that the details of the event was send us your website, send us your funnel, send us your revenue, send us, you know, all these things, landing pages, words I did barely even knew. And I was like, I don't even have a business. I don't have an idea for a business like like that's worse than like the one thing I have a bad business, but I don't even have one.

So I wrote that book in the thirty days before and the day before that event. I send it to the editor and I showed up and I just pitched my idea of why I was writing this book about serving an audience, becoming an apprentice of those who you want to serve. And my intention was to prove my point that if you become The Apprentice, you can actually rise and grow over time by serving. And so people, you know, you only have fifteen minutes.

And these people were seven, six and seven figure business already in the room. And here's this guy with none. But what was interesting is they were all impressed with the fact that I wrote a book in thirty days more than anything else and sparked the attention. I totally got the spark, the attention of people in the room who were entrepreneurs, who wanted to write a book. That's how I started this journey.

I think it brings you right back to that assumption of credibility. That's really interesting.

And that's that's where I became a book coach. We had to know what it was or that people needed help doing that. And when people would say, you helped me write a book, of course I can. I'm a teacher. I can help anybody. I have a belief of that. I always could help any young person. So why would it be any different for an adult? And that's the perspective I've held and I have confidence in that.

So if you're a professional athlete or you're our CEO or you're Pat Flynn, I know I can help you because that's the confidence I have a being a teacher. It's the gift of serving in that way for those years has given me.

Well, you have a great business doing exactly that. Now you run an annual event, which did happen this year.

It did it happen this year right before everything changed. Yeah. OK, congratulations. Thank you. Know, you're probably one of the very few people that managed to pull off an in-person event this year. And something again, this is I don't have very many questions, but this was one thing I really wanted to ask you, which was writing a book is one thing and there are many, but there are many ways to monetize a book. And most people, yes, they aspire after the positioning that.

Permits and yeah, I'm sure most authors would like the royalty checks, but one question I overhear authors asking each other on podcasts all the time is what does your backhand look like? Mm hmm. And you know what I'm talking about there? All right. It's OK. What business is this book underpinning? How important is it with the authors that you're working with that they actually have the business plan that this book is supporting mapped out in advance?

I think even before the plan is why are you writing it? What what do you want this book to do for you as the author? So many authors, mainly because they're selfless and focused on serving, which is a good thing. And I say, what do you want this book to do for you? They'll tell me everything about what I want this book to do. I want to help people grow. I want to help people do this or that.

And I say, that's wonderful. Now answer the question, what do you want this book to do for you? And if they are not clear, writing a book won't help them because it won't make the shift. So if they become clear, like I want to get more speaking gigs, I go, then make sure you leverage yourself in this book as the authority in that in that way, make sure it says call the action book, you know, book, Bob, for speaking by going here.

Make sure everything about your landing page where you send people to tells them, hey, I'm a I'm a speaker. When you pitch the media, make sure that that's what you're trying to do. Use your book as leverage to do the thing you're trying to do. If it's to grow my email list, then make sure the first page of the book says, hey, I'd love to get to know you or some intentional way to bring them out of the book onto your page, because it's much better to get a client or if somebody who's in your world for four nine dollars than it is to worry about making nine dollars.

Because if you're selling your product and you can get a new client from somebody reading your book, that's a huge shift. It's better than being distracted attention on a platform. So just be clear and then decide, OK, now that my book is being written, where do I want people to pay attention? How do I want to leverage this book to build authority, build credibility, create a course, a book to course. It's a lead magnet, all the things you want them to do.

Those are the things that help people position them. I knew I wanted to use that book to get a mentor. I said I would love to have.

Wouldn't it be great if I don't know who I besides listening to his podcast, I don't really know Doug Flynn. But wouldn't it be great if they were your mentors? I thought, well, that was my purpose of the book. I wasn't trying to sell anything. I was trying to make that connection and it achieved my goal. That was the only go ahead and it worked. So check the books. If my goal was to make money, I would position it differently.

Right. I've made infinitely more money with that connection than I would have made trying to sell books or sell a course from that book. Yeah.

So I am curious and I would imagine the listener is as well to know what is the experience of working with your company like for authors. So I have an idea for a book go.

Yeah, most of the time it starts with that. Why. Why? What do you want this book to do for you? What's the outcome you're hoping for? The second thing is, is that we we guide them through the process of discovery. Most people want clarity more than anything else. Clarity is the thing that's actually not in abundance. Ideas content is in abundance everywhere. Most successful people are trying to get clarity about how do I know which book is right for me?

What path should I be taking? And I say, that's the spot that's important. And let me give you an example how clarity can help make the difference in your book. So working with us should feel like this shift that's happening right from the very beginning. So we often tell people the book writing journey that most people take you on is not correct. They want to start with the book, outline the book premise in March. You through this system of writing the book, the book is really about finding that uniqueness that we talked about earlier and slowing the author down because your conscious mind will compete with your subconscious.

And the way it looks like is most of us. We're trained to be editors, right? We were given an assignment in school. Right. This assignment, turn it in and I'll market what the grade it deserves as a teacher. Give it back to you and you have a choice. Either you have a bad grade or you redo it or whatever the thing is. So we're constantly thinking, what grade do I want to achieve? All right.

So we become the editor first, so we don't worry about how good it is. We worry about what does this do to get the grade I want, what is this result? So all through school, whether it's middle school, high school, college, university, we are trying to say, I want to get the grade. We're not thinking how can this really help me as a person? What do I really want from this paper? What are the I'm hoping this does for me.

We don't think like this. So we're editors first, not writers, my my job is to transform your brain, to use the creative part of your brain, your left brain and your right brain can't be in conflict because the editor brain will win.

It will edit you out of your own book before you even start. So I slow people down. Our process looks like I'm getting you to pay attention to that uniqueness that you have that you're missing. Let me give an example. Dana Mustaf is a wonderful business leader. And she I met her at an event with Pat. And what happened was that she was a content strategist. She left corporate world to help small businesses expand their reach with their content.

And she had a podcast and a blog, Expand Your Reach. So when she found out I helped people write books, she said, well, you helped me write a book. I said, of course, made logical sense that she could grow her brand, get more attention and authority by writing a book. Well, I made her do a visualization process, which is show me your book. If it looked like pictures showing images of your book on one page, don't write an outline.

Just show me your book. And she drew drew it out.

And I said, now, let's walk through this. Tell me about this. Sort of like imagine looking at someone's family tree. Tell me about that person. Tell me about that person. Because until then, they're just names. They're just pictures of people. Right. So she's telling me about a book and this and that. And then she got this one image. It was a a bucket with a heart. I said, what's this bucket list?

Well, that's my love bucket. I said, OK, what's a love bucket? Why? Why I love bucket. And you're talking about content strategy. She. Well, that's the bucket I kind of kept for moms.

I thought about moms and she went on to tell me why she thinks moms have a bad rap, but they don't. They feel guilty for loving their business more than their children and they feel terrible and they feel like that's wrong. She goes, men don't feel that way. They might go play golf on a Thursday at at noon and they call that work and they don't feel bad at all. But women have this this thing, moms in particular. And she went on and on and it was 10 or 20 minutes where she was just going on about this topic of this this thing.

And she goes, and that's why women should be boss moms.

I said, boss moms, huh? That's interesting. I never heard of that. She's like, yeah, like they take charge. They do it their way. They don't worry about it. And then she she looked at me, she took a breath and she said, You're going to make me redo this whole map thing, aren't you?

I said, well, I'm just curious why you spent twenty minutes on a bucket of love when I had nothing to do with content strategy. And you seem very passionate about it seems to be a unique perspective that, you know, you said that women should love their business, sometimes more than their kids. That's a unique perspective. I'm just curious. She's like, yeah, love is infinite. You can't run out of love. So why would you worry about loving anything more than one another?

So she redid the map and she wrote the book, Boss, Mom, she started an incredible community, has like eighty thousand loyal followers. She speak all over the country alongside people like Amy Porterfield. And she's a very prominent figure going from someone who just step out of corporate with a chip on her child and her hip, another one on the way. And it created an entire brand based on her unique view of the world. That's what we do.

We help people see that that they can create this brand where the conversation that happens and it happens over time. So our program looks like this like we're not rushing into the things, but we're going to get clear. Writing the book is the hard part. Words on a page aren't the hard part. It's the discussion your brain has inside internally that we have to work with and kind of get clear so that the book becomes more effortless to produce.

I really like that. I think what I like is it's a much more natural process than, like you said, to start with an outline where you're you're you're bypassing a whole creative process just to get to a finished product. That unpacking, that divining. What is it that's that only you can bring to the topic is. Yeah, I love that.

Yeah. The thing that I noticed is that people they want to rush this because they don't think of it as a creative process. And if you remind yourself the writing is creativity first before it's an editing process, people try to edit as they write. And that's the biggest mistake they make, is they never allow themselves to be curious long enough to figure out what it could be because they set their intention, what it was before they even started. And the difference is, in my opinion, is if we were going to go to the garden, the back of the house and there was a tree and around the back of the tree is a beautiful prize rosebush that we wanted everybody to get to to see.

So we decided, let's make a path, because it's sometimes hard to get there, the rocks, the mud, whatever. And you decide you're going to lay out a little path around the right side of the tree. And you you put the little frame and pour the sand to the concrete. You start, you know, doing this process of laying concrete and halfway.

There you go. You know what? Actually, it's much better if we go in the right side or the left side. Because there's sunshine here and it's an easier way to get there. So let's start over. Well, if you've laid the path in concrete, you're not going to tear up. You're going to forget it.

It's too much work. Let's just keep going. It's not worth it. Well, that's what writing an outline can be like for authors in their mind is they've already created this concrete thing and they don't see a way out of it.

But if you create a pathway and say, you know, let's create a path around this tree to this rosebush, but let's use stones, beautiful stones, OK, we'll make sure we pick the right ones, a beautifully polished. They'll be unique.

And once we have the stones, we're going to gently sent them on through the garden to every stone we collect. And then when we're done with those beautiful stones, we're going to arrange it around the garden and we can change the order. We can move them around the space in between. But it still takes you to that beautiful spot. But it's just a different way of creating a path for the reader. Get there and for the author to create.

It's much more gentle. It's much more clear and flexible so that the creative process doesn't get inhibited by this thing. It should be before it's too you know, it still meets the intention, but it's not so concrete, literally. I really like that.

And it's a real contrast to an awful lot of the online self publishing. But I call them vehicles, if you like.

Yeah, I'm all for the path to the quick way to get done. But if getting done quickly doesn't bring your result, then you're you're just putting words in a page. Yeah. You're the thing that shifts the world, not the book and these creative conversations. And that's because that's what they have to be. It has to be a conversation. They can only really happen with people who are ready for those conversations. And it's to be part of part of the culture of that organization, which is why I can imagine you get great results and you work with great people.

Yeah, and we run cohorts were like a group of people start together and end together.

And what you're doing is creating a space to be vulnerable, to be honest, that you don't know what you're doing to to to try and fail. It's that it's an incubator for doing the work. It's it's like, hey, this is a safe place where we all don't know what we're doing, but we all know we want to change the world in some way. And to have those peers with you makes it feel more confident. Sometimes people just want to work one on one with me.

But for the most part, I encourage them if it works for you and you can do it in a group setting for this cohort of people who are sort of like teammates along the way helps because writing in schools is a lonely process. Don't look at anyone's paper, don't get help, don't communicate, just do it. And unfortunately, writing isn't a solo sport. It's a team sport. But we just weren't trained to actually experience that. So we have terror of of judgment about this.

And my job is to break that down so you can talk about these things and overcome them with with others as well.

I'm looking at the clock and I am aware you have a coaching call probably in about ten minutes. I don't want to hold you up from that. Right.

If people want to get in touch with you, if they want to connect with you in any way, how would you like them to do that?

Well, they're always welcome to come to visit me on my podcast authors who lead anywhere, they listen to a podcast. So that's always a great way to learn more and also go to authors who lead dotcom. We have some great resources. We have a we'll have a quiz that can take to find out what's their publishing path is right for their book. And also a great summit that they can join, where we interviewed 40 authors who talk about why fighting your uniqueness is so important in writing books as well.

I need to end with a question that normally I give people some warning about. And when I do my pre-flight briefing, it's normally in there. I forgot to do. I'm sorry, but you strike me as someone who will have no problem with this. So I generally always end the show with asking the question, what's one thing you do now that you wish you'd started five years ago?

I wish I would have been confident enough to know that my ability to share my truth, my my knowledge was way more valuable than I thought. I didn't think that what I had to share would help anyone. And I wish I would have just been more confident sooner about trying things differently because I don't do things the way other people do. And then I should have taken the risk earlier and realized that is the secret sauce to anyone's success is a unique path that they find rather than trying to imitate others, which is what I did for so long as well.

You've been a fantastic guest. That was a brilliant answer. Thank you so much for your time. And yeah, I look forward to seeing you again sometime soon, but thank you so much for having me. Writing a book doesn't have to be a massive undertaking. We all think our books can be anywhere from 15 to 40000 words, sometimes a bit more. And at the lower end, that's only 10 longer blog posts. So if you've got an idea bubbling away, take some action.

Who knows where it might lead. Before I go, just a quick reminder again to subscribe. And if you happen to join our Facebook community, you'll find a link in the show, notes or visit, amplify me tort from forward slash inciters. As always, I would love for you to connect with me on social media. You'll follow me wherever you hang out. You'll find me at pop gentle. And if you do message me, let me know and I can follow you back.

If you've enjoyed the show, I would love for you to review on iTunes or whatever player you listen on. It means a lot to me and it's the very best way to help me reach more subscribers. My name is Bob Gentil. Thanks again to us all for giving us his time this week and to you for listening. And I'll see you next week.