If you're like me then you'll have been on the receiving end of a bad sales approach on Linkedin - probably more than one. Linekdin is a fantastic tool for business networking and a great place to build your brand. It's a powerful platform allowing your connect with and reach out to just about anyone. But a powerful tool in the wrong hands quickly becomes a weapon which all to often backfires on the one trying to wield it. Social selling on Linkedin can be a bit like that.
This week My guest is Dana Lindahl who runs an agency focusing on Linkedin Lead generation and in this week's episode he's going to walk us through his business story and exactly how to make Linkedin a lead generation gift which keeps on giving.
Dana's website : https://www.legendaryleadgen.com/
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Automatic Show Transcript
If you're like me, you've been on the receiving end, bad sales approach on LinkedIn, probably more than once. LinkedIn is a fantastic tool for networking and a great place to build your brand. It's a powerful platform allowing you to connect with and reach out to just about anyone. But a powerful tool in the wrong hands quickly becomes a weapon, which all too often backfires on the one trying to wield it. social selling on LinkedIn can be a bit like that. This week, my guest is Donna lindahl, who runs an agency focusing on LinkedIn lead generation. And in this week's episode, he's going to walk us through his business story and exactly how to make LinkedIn lead generation, the gift which keeps on giving. Hi there, and welcome back to amplify the digital marketing entrepreneur podcast. I'm Bob Gentle and every Monday I'm joined by amazing people who share what makes their business work. If you're new to the show, then take a second right now to subscribe so you don't miss new episodes. And you can grab some older ones when you're done with this one. Don't forget to join our Facebook community to just visit the shortcut URL amplify me.fm forward slash insiders. And you'll be taken right there. So welcome along, and let's meet. So this week, my guest is Dana lindahl. Dana, do you want to start just by telling us a little bit about who you are, where you are and the kind of work you do?
Sure. My name is Dana lindahl. I've been running a company called legendary lead gen since 2014. Were a US based company and we specialize in helping other marketing agencies and b2b service companies to get in touch with their best clients and set sales appointments. We got our start doing this on on email is called email. We've made a switch primarily over to LinkedIn in 2018. And we've seen This whole landscape of lead generation social selling changed so rapidly month by month over the past year and a half that we've just been constantly adapting and shifting our approaches to adapt to the always changing landscape.
So I have all the things that I could say to a customer. The one thing that always makes their eyes light up is the word lead generation. And the reason for that is that's really, the fruit. That's the really the plum fruit of the whole process is a lead landing in your inbox. So I'm keen for you to maybe unpack this concept of lead generation, maybe tell me a little bit of the story of what goes into that fruit for you. What does it take to get to that point where you have a lead to harvest it within your own context?
Yeah, sure. So for us, you know, we're just going out and we're trying to start conversations with people in the past, we used to Run a lot more salesy style campaigns because it was working, you know, I forget who made this quote, but there's a famous quote to say marketers ruin everything, you know, everything works well until all the marketers come along and do it to death until it doesn't work anymore. And we need to come up with a new strategy. So you know, the outbound system is something that's been around for four decades of cold calling is essentially outbound selling this switches over to to email as folks realize that they don't want to be spending your that it's intrusive to be, you know, interrupting somebody with a phone call. Whereas email, you can send somebody a message with your value proposition, and they can read it at their own time. So when we got our start doing this, it was pretty easy to just be able to reach out to someone, tell them the value proposition that we provide, tell them how they can get in touch with us or book a call so they can learn more, and then walk them through the process and if they feel like that we can provide value, then there's a high chance that they actually sign up with us. And that was our process since 2014. I kind of started this company by accident just by reaching out to some people for my own copywriting services. I was reaching out to funded startups back in 2014. And I was booking calls with people who, you know, they had millions of dollars in funding. And at the time, I was, you know, much younger and less advanced in, you know, my internet marketing career, I was freezing up on the phone, because I didn't know how to write copy for a company with, you know, 20 million in venture capital. It was just outside of my realm. But these companies started to get back in touch and say, Hey, Dana, I'm not interested in your copywriting services, but this email you sent me. It's good. I actually piqued my interest. I don't even know who you are. But you consider doing this for us as a service. And I never ended up actually working with that company. But it's how I, I launched this, this company on the idea of, Hey, I can figure out how to find a person's email address. I can get in touch with a message that hopefully resonates and we can get on the phone and discuss how we can work together and that work. Really well all the way from 2014 up until 2018, I would say. And at that point GDPR came along. And I didn't think it was going to affect us, particularly as we weren't working with too many clients in the in the EU. But what ended up happening was Google and Microsoft, and all of these companies who control the large inboxes or the, you know, the big accounts, Gmail, Outlook and things like that, they change the algorithm for how things were placed. So overnight, our kind of highly targeted and thoughtful campaigns started going to spam. Meanwhile, I'm getting Viagra emails to my my primary inbox. And so the algorithm was was really messed up for a while. And it was frustrating for us because we'd always built our company on being, you know, marketing focused, putting a good message out there that resonates with its target audience. And we never actually had to spend that much time on the back end infrastructure of how we stay out of the spam box because we didn't consider ourselves to be spam.
But after that point, we start to think, you know, we're not able to find this infrastructure. And by the way, things are a little bit better now, you know, their their algorithm has worked itself out. So if you're sending things that are resonating with your audience, you'll still get to their inbox. But at the time, we had to weather the storm. So we switch things over to LinkedIn. And it was actually great for us in the beginning, because people weren't really utilizing the platform for this as much. And we were kind of the pioneers. You know, we took our expertise in copywriting. We took our expertise and targeting, and we simply applied it to a new platform. And that worked really, really well for a while we were still able to reach out to people, we were able to be direct grip to put our value proposition out there and people who are interested, raise their hand. And that was that, you know, it was still a very, very easy and straightforward process. But that's all changed in the past year and a half and how we go about things and what's actually working in terms of getting in touch with your target market on LinkedIn. There's been a massive influx of automation tools that have come out and you know, I don't want to say that these tools being so cheap on its own is a bad thing. But that, in turn causes people to not really spend the time and effort to really, you know, dive deep on how they should be doing this properly. If I've just, you know, quote unquote, invested in a tool that cost me $49. And it's going to allow me to reach out to 1000 people a month and just go do it, you know, blast some people some messages, I understand the thought process behind why people do that, you know, they haven't really, they don't have enough skin in the game at $49 or so to really, you know, put their best foot forward here. So, there's been a bit of a backlash in the past year and a half of you know, LinkedIn is the best place to go to get pitched by someone that you don't know instead of LinkedIn is the best place to go to find a job as it used to be known. And, you know, people are increasingly getting frustrated with the fact that you know, there's all these people reaching out to them and it just seems so tone deaf and this even goes double in the fact that we're in a pandemic right now, where, you know, if you're not at least mentioning, you know, hey, I hope everything is going well for you, you know, I hope this message finds you well, or something, you know, kind of generic like that. People are like, Are you serious? Are you reaching out to me with this kind of, you know, crap, to be perfectly honest, especially right now. And it's not resonating with people anymore.
So I guess that doesn't quite answer your question about what does this look like for us nowadays?
But the way that we're we're shifting the whole thing on its head now is it's working especially well during the pandemic, where people are not necessarily buying and we were starting to do this since last year, is we switched the way that we we run our campaigns and the way that we run our lead generation efforts on on LinkedIn to be less of a, you know, hey, here's my product. Here's why. It's great. Would you like to get on a call and find out why you should use it to, you know, hey, I want to get to know new people in my network. I Want to be building these relationships and I also want to be a helpful person. So we no longer reach out to people with, you know, messages that are, you know, here's my calendly, let's get on a call. And you know, let me pitch you on something. But hey, I wrote this article recently, I think that you'd find it valuable. Sometimes we ask for feedback on to because people love to be, you know, asked for their opinion, because they're an expert on it. We found this to be one a great way to just build out a network and create relationships with new people in your target market. And because you're not pitching them directly as everybody else is doing, you know, the relationship starts off with a bit more trust. And you know, people are actually more willing to hear you out in and listening to your marketing message, because you haven't started off the relationship with, hey, buy my stuff. And I say that as a person who used to send out a ton of messages that said, Hey, buy my stuff. You know, we've had to adapt in that sense. But the real big thing that I see is an opportunity for For companies right now, is not just reaching out to people and being a helpful person because there's only you know, so far that that can go, right. We really want them to be building out their network with a targeted group of people who could be buyers or even better, you know, are connected with people who could be buyers, because the the platform itself and in terms of the content publishing platform, is content deficient compared to a lot of the other platforms that are out there. You know, currently for social media, Facebook, Instagram, tik tok, you know, all those have way more content that people can actually consume. The percentage and ratio of people posting towards consuming is out of whack whereas LinkedIn, it's a very small percentage of people who are actually posting so what this means is that if you you know are publishing content, you know, regularly to your your LinkedIn newsfeed status updates, you know, not things that are difficult or long form to write. This has massive extra Mental growth. And I know that's not generally a good word, this this period of the year, but you know, on Facebook, you see your friends updates, maybe you see a friend of a friend. But on LinkedIn, you see your connections, you see your connections connections, you see your connections, connections, connections, which may not sound like a value add as you're scrolling through your own newsfeed. But as you start posting content, and you know, you know, thoughtful things to your own profile, this is reaching a huge network of people. And all this kind of comes back around in sort of a roundabout way to drive targeted, excuse me targeted traffic towards your profile, which has been optimized to tell people exactly how you can help them and what your value actually is. So we take this whole method and instead of trying to just blast people with what our value proposition is, and hope that they like it, we provide value to these people. Let them come into our kind of web of our marketing message. And then they start to discover who we are on their own. Because it's not just a, hey, here's why I am Would you like to talk to me, but you know, they've been following our content, they've been seeing what we've been talking about. If it's resonating with them, then they go. And you know, they visit a profile, and they see how they get in touch with us. It also was a much better way to bring in clients, we found these in terms of client quality, because they're already coming to us with a bit of an understanding of how our methodology works in the way that we'd like to do things. And they're in agreement with it already. This just makes our job a lot easier. And to an extent, you know, our clients who are selling in the same way, because people come in and aren't trying to reinvent the wheel with them or say, Okay, well, this is your process, but we kind of want to do it this way. You know, people are actually hiring them for the things that they've been putting out there.
Yeah. Well, that makes a lot of sense. Out of what you said, I mean, you've given me amazing context. That's possibly one of the best snapshots of what you do have ever heard. But how did that come a few questions and you mentioned people using automation tools. To shortcuts, an awful lot of the finesse that is that should really be brought to this. A lot of the LinkedIn tools that I've come across come with huge health warnings. As far as your, the longevity of your LinkedIn profile is concerned. And I'd be interested in your perspective on this, because it's not my area. But how safe are these LinkedIn automation tools to use?
It's sort of a spectrum. Very few people actually get banned outright just for simply using an automation tool. The most common response from LinkedIn is to send you a warning and it will say that either they detected a tool that you've used, or they're they suspect that you're using a tool based on the type of activity that's happening within your account. You often agree to not do that anymore. Whether you have been using it or not, you know, people can get warnings simply for you know, literally just being a power user and you know, adding 1000 people just spending eight hours on LinkedIn, you know, because that's not normal behavior. But generally the you won't get banned unless you continue to do this. You know, every infraction sort of adds up. My personal stance on automation tools is I don't like them. I don't recommend them to anybody. There are a few safe ones that are out there. But I'm even hesitant to to recommend those. The one thing that I will say to people in terms of safety with automation tools, if you're still thinking about using one is this it's if you use a chrome based extension. Absolutely all of the activity. That extension is automated on your profile is 100%, viewable trackable and stored by LinkedIn. And they're looking for that activity from these tools that they have come to identify as automation tools. If you are going to use a tool, it needs to be a cloud based tool. It's often a standalone piece of software. Again, I'm hesitant to recommend any specific ones just because I don't believe Automation is the way to go about this. The main problems with with automation is you know, a lot of these platforms have been getting better at detecting replies and knowing when to cut the conversation off and not just send the next message anyways and things like that. But that's not even my issue with it. It's that most of the these automation tools they they simply pull from a Sales Navigator list. For anyone who's not familiar Sales Navigator is LinkedIn premium product that allows you both much more granular abilities to filter. Regular, regular LinkedIn account, I believe only allows five filters, whereas Sales Navigator allows you to have access to over 30 of them and use them all simultaneously. And you also get a little bit more leniency in your outreach for for having it. But it's not a perfect tool. You know, LinkedIn incentive is to show you more people that are actually a good fit because they want you to think that they're showing you a ton of good potential leads. So as you start getting down list more It's not actually that targeted even if you've run your your searches as well as you possibly can. So the issue becomes most of these tools operate off of a LinkedIn Sales Navigator URL, which you've only been able to set through filters. And it just sends these messages to these people. And half of them are not targeted. I personally receive about five times a day connection requests and pitches from LinkedIn lead gen agencies offering me appointment setting services and leads from LinkedIn, because I'm in the marketing and advertising industry as running an agency and they're targeting other agencies, but because they're running it through these automation tools, they're not able to remove me as a bad fit. And you know, I often partner with other agencies, and you know, work with them on certain things and I can tell immediately which ones are worth partnering with, or not I would rather not. If they've reached out to me and pitch me on my own service. It doesn't instill confidence that they do a good job in their own targeting for for their clients. But All this comes back to say that if you're using these automation tools, you're going to have a lot of bad fits into there. So we had to target everything. We start with a Sales Navigator search, of course, because that's the best way to get a shortlist. And then we go through and we remove people, we find those people, but that's a manual process, it takes a human being going in there and and actually doing that.
a lot of my clients, I recommend that they're gonna hire someone to do that. I'm a big fan of hiring, you know, overseas in you know, places like Eastern Europe or you know, things like that where the wages are a little bit cheaper and people are more willing to do repetitive tasks all day for their work. It's a little bit difficult to put a you know, an American or a Canadian or Brit into a seat and tell them click this button eight times a day or you know, eight hours a day and you know, you'll you'll get paid for it. Whereas you know, a lot of places around the world. This is you know, wanted and you're going to spend a few hundred dollars on this. This person may be part time to help you out with the And help you to, you know, filter through some of these results so that you're only reaching out to people who are actually a targeted fit. And at that point, why even automate the sending, you know, you're already paying this person a few hundred dollars maybe more how to handle the sending as well I really don't see many advantages to using the automation tools, given the risks that are there even however small they are. To me the the bigger risk of using an automation tool is just making a fool of yourself rather than actually getting your your account suspended.
Yeah, and that does happen all the time. I mean, like you I get these approaches, frequently, where you can just see the targeting is is wrong and it just makes it's, it's like the curtains been pulled back on, on a poor service. But when it's done well, it, it feels like it's done with integrity. And that essentially is what it has to be that's it has to come across as well done otherwise. It's either it's binary, it's either good, or it's bad. There's nothing in the middle. And you don't want to be the bad. And as you said, 50% with automation, if it's 50% bad, that's bad.
It is it is. And you know, a lot of people close by on this or kind of trick themselves into thinking that this is all a great tactic to be using, because people will make sales with these bad tactics. I mean, people all the time will, will reach out to someone who just so happens to need what it is that they sell. And, and the timing was perfect. If you're sending out 1000 messages a month to people and not targeting them very well. Within a couple of months, you'll get somebody who wants the same, you know, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, right? You'll find somebody in there who's willing to hire you. And the trouble is, is a lot of these people will use that as validation that this is the thing that I need to be doubling down on. And because they're they're able to do this through automation and through, you know, kind of cheesy tactics. They think that, you know, why would they need to improve upon this, when in reality, they'll have a lot better results if they just you know, improved upon their whole process came across as a human actually sold socially rather than just calling it social selling and then automating everything else. But a lot of people won't take that step because they don't see the value in it because they made a sale, you know, just by reaching out and and, you know, saying what they had to say, and someone agreed to it, that validates the concept of them and keeps them going. I've been interested on your perspective
on the tracking of this whole relationship process. Now to anybody listening the right thing that sounds a bit crude to track relationships. That's what businesses are often based on is a CRM tool. The tools generally as you mentioned, you're pulling data from Sales Navigator and LinkedIn. That data needs to live somewhere when you when you're not working within sales nificant navigator or an automation tool. So how do you typically manage the tracking of data who's who has been messaged what what stage people are at how warm people are that kind of thing.
It's really difficult. LinkedIn by design makes this difficult to do. They do this for two reasons. One is they want you to stay within their Sales Navigator product as your CRM. And I'll go on record anywhere to say that it's a bad CRM, it's not a good CRM to to rely on fully, both in terms of UI UX and also for the fact that it's you know, pretty insular, just focused on on LinkedIn. If you cancel your your LinkedIn Sales Navigator account any tags and any conversations that you have within Sales Navigator are now gone forever. Their incentive is to keep you signed up for Sales Navigator and keep you signed up for ever on Sales Navigator. The second thing is that they do not want you extracting, exporting. Importing well important is okay. They don't want you export anything from the platform. And I believe this is actually a GDPR thing, where you know, if anyone is really geeky on this whole GDPR, they're the data controller, if you extract or export data from them and use it incorrectly, they are now on the hook for all these fines. So most tools that are built to export data out of LinkedIn, are also going to get you a suspension or a warning similar to to automation tools. Not because they they believe that it's going to, you know, lower the integrity of the platform, but they're, you know, it's a legal issue for them, I believe. Yeah. So it's, it's frustrating. It's honestly the one of the most frustrating things about running a company that has LinkedIn as a major element of it.
We personally use air table
as we've been able to tweak it and hack it to all of our specific needs and what our clients need, and we Just simply enter conversations into
air table for our clients and recommend that they use that as a dashboard
for actually finding the conversations. Otherwise, the the inbox gets so messy with you know, 100 or so messages a day, and it's hard to find people and you know, even people respond back and they're interested to talk and you might lose them in there. But that's not super helpful for your your listeners, because not everyone is going to have a full team, you know, ready to just put all of their conversations into LinkedIn. for them. My biggest recommendation is to get conversations going off the platform as soon as you possibly can. Once you realize that there's some sort of, you know, synergy or mutual interest in having a further conversation with somebody suggested to take it elsewhere. People are often really averse to the Hey, let's jump on a call because that's often code for you know, kind of pitch you something. But oftentimes taking things to email can work and then you have all of your other CRM tools, I unfortunately don't have a really great answer for how to manage these things all efficiently. The one thing I can say is a few of the newer cloud based automation tools don't even require you to log into LinkedIn, so that you can manage all of your, you know, messages in your inbox directly from that tool. And oftentimes, they'll be a little bit better at managing the conversation. Not that I'm actually recommending people go do that, but they are kind of filling a market gap with it. LinkedIn is ignoring, which is kind of interesting.
Yeah, no, I was kind of expecting the answer that you gave to an extent where it's not easy. And if it was easy to be honest, your your company wouldn't really have a place in the market. That's, it's what you're offering is that essentially a very simple value proposition is we'll take something hard, and we'll do it for you. Because it's what we focus on. So there's, there shouldn't be an easy answer air table was effectively The answer I was angling for, I was expecting something like that, or something as crude as a spreadsheet because there's nothing really ready made for this. Yeah,
I believe there is one product that that will do it and that LinkedIn approves of. I think it's a HubSpot product requires of course a premium HubSpot account and the next tier up of Sales Navigator, Sales Navigator team, which you know, even if it's just you, you got to pay for for team for it to work. I do believe that that's a way to import an export conversations in a way that LinkedIn allows. I'm not a HubSpot user personally, so I can't speak to that advocacy on it directly.
Well, I think from from the majority of my audience, that's probably not the right tool anyway. What I would like to understand a little bit is obviously if if my company is hiring somebody to do LinkedIn outreach When that's been done, I'm guessing that's been done through the client's LinkedIn profile by you as a third party initially. Have I got that right so far?
Generally, there are some companies out there
that will set up a fake profile and
run campaigns from there, and then just forward leads on to their clients as like an introduction. I think that that's awful. I really disagree with that. And I won't even mention names of companies that do that. I don't think it's a you know, something that should be gaining more exposure. But certainly, most campaigns are being run directly from the person who signed up for the service. I recommend for most companies to have this come from the founder or somebody on the management team, even if they aren't the ones to actually be logging into their own account to respond back to the needs in the interest of people. Because if you do it you know from the very beginning only from You know, an SDRs profile, if they leave the company, they take all that with them. There's certainly, you know, scenarios that scale where it's, it's great to have these SDRs running this. But if you're just getting started with with campaigns and you want to have this data, you want to see how it's going, I definitely recommend having someone from management be the profile that comes from
and at what point is that being handed off to the client, how, how warm is warm enough for you to hand off.
So it really depends. For us personally, we have a few different service options with some of our clients that we've been working with a little bit longer, will actually help them to go back and forth and try to set the sales appointments themselves so that they just need to show up for the call. Of course, any company that that does that for their clients charges a whole lot more for it, because that's more than just, you know, lead generation and knowing how to run campaigns, but it's also being able to essentially act as an arm About the company in answer questions on their behalf about you know, different packages in, you know how they run their processor, if it even makes sense for the two people that seem to get on the phone together. But a lot of times, we we hand things off to them at the point of the first response, we fully believe that our campaigns are only there to produce that response to generate a conversation. And then the conversation needs to turn into a more natural, organic way. For it to be valuable to anybody, you know, template messaging can only go so far. And we really push being genuine, you know, putting your genuine self out there. And we find that that can be very difficult for us to be genuine on behalf of others in real time. We can write content on their behalf that they can approve and edit before it goes out and before it gets published. But trying to automate or outsource genuineness in real time is very difficult.
I think particularly when it's direct message whereas potentially Really, really quick?
One thing I would like to ask you about that hadn't, it's popped into my head from time to time over the last few months, chat bots are becoming a big thing across lots of platforms, Facebook Messenger, in particular, being somebody that's really focused on the LinkedIn space, have you come across anybody looking at chat bots for LinkedIn yet? I haven't. Actually.
I think it will be one of those things that will either be officially supported by LinkedIn, or will have a very, very short lifespan of people trying to force it into the platform against LinkedIn will. Facebook obviously supports chat bots, as they you know, they have a whole platform and API built around it. I'm unsure if people are going to be able to build these out. But at the same time, a lot of these tools that people are using are essentially just just chat bots that, you know, respond back to people based on triggers and
things like that. I guess so. hadn't looked at it like that. One other thing you spoke about earlier on was the really low signal to noise ratio on LinkedIn. There's an awful lot of noise and not a lot of actual substance. And I think a lot of people underestimate that. Because when you open LinkedIn, you scroll through content. But it's very hard to realize, actually how little content there is relative to the number of people that are there. And I'm curious to know, again, as somebody whose focus is on that one platform, there probably isn't one simple answer to this question, but it's a question I'm asked all the time. What is the sweet spot in terms of a posting frequency on LinkedIn? If you are somebody that's looking to be consistently visible, so that when you're doing outreach, you're your visibility alongside the direct contact? Is there a density sufficient to support The other things that you're trying to do, does that question Make sense?
Yeah, definitely. Um, so just like anything algorithm based, you know, you'll never know what the real answer, or at least the company that controls the algorithm will never tell you what's really going on. So it's up to people like myself and you know, other companies running services similar to my own to come up with our own interpretations. I personally believe that most people should be posting a minimum of twice a week on LinkedIn, if they're using this for their own lead generation efforts, or even just for, you know, branding and awareness. I don't really recommend posting more than once a day, except in certain situations, if you have a huge following, then, you know, kind of go ahead and post this as much as you want. But the thing about LinkedIn is, it's all about their algorithm and how they display things to people. And generally when you make a new post, it starts to cancel out the engagement and how they're spreading that post to people from the previous posts. So sometimes We have clients that we're doing content campaigns for them posting status updates regularly. Some days we'll skip a day, if we wake up in the morning and their posts from the day before is still trending, it's still getting comments and still getting likes, they're still receiving incoming connection requests and inquiries about their service from it, which is the whole goal of this, then will often just take the next day off, even if we have a killer post scheduled for that next day, we'll just shift our content calendar forward one day, because we don't want to, you know, metabolize the effectiveness of the previous post.
That makes a lot of sense. So just wait for one wave to finish before you start writing the next one. I also wanted to ask you again, this one of the things that happens to me all the time is the connection request comes. You think, okay, they're vaguely relevant, click Accept. And then comes the direct message saying, and this is this is the standard one from me recently. Hi, I'm a financial advisor. I would like to talk to you About your pensions, protection life insurance. And this is directly after a connection request has been accepted. Now, that's obviously not how we should go down. in marketing, they often say, it takes the average of seven touches before somebody is ready to do business with you. And you'd kind of described a similar process where you need to, you need to move or court, your prospect. And a lot of people are not very creative and very imaginative. So I'm curious to know, how do you cover those seven touches? With enough variety to make it not repetitive? You know what I mean?
Yeah, for sure. So
people are big on the follow ups and there's all these you know, studies and everything across cold email campaigns and LinkedIn campaigns about how many touches are are necessary.
I often take the approach that after about three or four, direct one
If there's no engagement, if there's no answer, then, you know, I'm not doing myself a favor by continuing to reach out here, I'd rather this person, you know, come in and start realizing where I am in all the different places that I'm active on the internet, rather than just continuing to hammer them with these messages over and over and over. I mean, I can pull up some messages on by my LinkedIn account, where I can scroll back, you know, a year and a half, and I have up to 20 different messages from this one person, and I've never responded to any of them, and they just get increasingly more desperate as time goes on. In terms of staying creative and how to keep making these touches. You know, I my go to is always just, you know, be helpful and provide value. I know that that's kind of cliche, but there's really no shortcut to that, you know, if you are just trying to skip the line and basically, you know, someone who is a financial advisor was reaching out to you and asking to talk about something as serious as advising you and your finances. I mean, they're they're basically asking you to marry them before you even have the first date.
And it just doesn't
work. So yeah, I always just fall back to, you know, being a helpful person. The thing about the way that we've run our campaigns is, is that you're not excluded from being able to make a pitch to any of these people. It's not like it's a mutually exclusive process. You can reach out to people and be helpful. And then you can realize, hey, this person who just accepted my connection request is actually the perfect client for us. Because they're the, you know, rife for being able to take advantage of our one, you know, secret method that we have, right? So that might be a good person to kind of break the system and say, Hey, I'm going to actually reach out to this person. And you know, tell him why I think that we should do business together. Now. That might still work for for some people, but if you start excellent Conversation off like that, then you often lose the opportunity to have any form of a conversation with anybody. But if you start the conversation off on a, you know, I want to connect, I want to build relationships with people I'm willing to help. And I just want to grow my network and you're genuine about that, then you do have opportunities to actually make that pitch when it's sensible.
Again, that makes a lot of sense. Why don't I guess I'd like to spin things around a little bit and find out actually what it is. You'd be very generous with your knowledge and the insight and anybody that's listening, wanting to up game up their game on LinkedIn, there's there's a lot for them to, to work with there. But I'm curious to know for you as an agency, what does an ideal customer look like for you, and what's a, what's a bad fit?
Sure. So for us, we work with a lot of marketing agencies and b2b service companies. For us, the thing that's really difficult is when we have a company coming to us with really not a To differentiate themselves within the marketplace, so this is, you know, just your standard SEO company, or your standard PPC company that really just is doing the same as all these other PPC companies, the absolute worst is just kind of an all around digital marketing agency that doesn't have much recognition in their market, this is going to be extremely difficult for us to produce a result for them because there's nothing about them that actually stands out and makes people want to be interested in them. It's also something that's difficult for us because we'll try to create content on their behalf and will oftentimes try to take a slightly controversial angle or you know, something that will just stand out. And these companies by design of just being sort of generalist agencies that don't stand out from the pack don't like to stand out when we make suggestions for them to do so. It's not that they don't like doing it, it's just that they're, it's outside of their their normal thought process of how they go about things. And that's compounded by the fact that you know, there's nothing on paper them immediately visible to make them more intriguing than, you know, another company. Similar to that is, you know, just companies selling commodity type things is very difficult. But for us, it's basically any b2b service company that's just willing to be open and try new things in terms of their, their marketing message is a great client for us.
I think there was quite an interesting observation there with and it's an agency thing, it's actually a very general thing that everybody wants to fit in, and particularly marketing agencies, nobody really wants, they all want to stand out. They all think they want to stand out, but they don't want to turn anybody off. And the funny thing with marketing is that if you want anybody to be actively for you, you kind of have to accept that you're going to have to have a number of people that are actively not for you, and that this polarizing if you want a strong, positive attraction, you can't have it without an equally strong Negative attraction. And that's why everybody becomes quite bland.
It's Yeah, it's the the concept of trying to appeal to everybody actually ends up appealing to to nobody. So, and a lot of people are just trying to make themselves, you know, appealing to everybody out there. Mm hmm.
So I'm curious to know, I mean, you've been in business since 2014, LinkedIn for the last couple of years. What are your plans for legendary lead gen? Where do you want to go with things?
Yeah. So it's an interesting question, especially as we are in the midst of this pandemic. And you know, a lot of people are, you know, stopping marketing spend or shifting their marketing spend towards other things. I have been shifting our focus lately towards training and helping other companies to gain this knowledge to do it better on their own. And I've been doing this for a few reasons. One is that I really dislike the way the market is headed here. With How it's becoming commonplace to just send out spammy messages to people and to think that that's okay. And I have, you know, competitors of mine. And you know, people who run these sorts of campaigns who think I'm absolutely wrong and think that I'm, you know, doing a disservice to people in the industry by saying, you know, not to be a spammer. I don't know how that makes sense in their minds. But, you know, I think that I have an opportunity here to sort of shift the perspective of people, maybe not on my own, but I want to start empowering enough people to be using a better system, not just a better system, but to be using the platform more responsibly, so that we can all continue to use it and enjoy it and you know, still make, get new business from it. The platform essentially is, you know, a b2b networking platform. There's no secret that people are supposed to be using it to win new business. It's just the way that people go about it. that's gotten so screwed up in the past year and a half. So I just want I really want to be putting my My message out there so that I can affect a larger number of people. Because if people, you know, follow my advice, and they start doing more sensible campaigns that resonate better with their target audience, everybody wins. And I'm able to do that better at scale than simply bringing on clients that are higher ticket price for us to actually do it for them. Second is I am seeing a shift of course, during the pandemic away from people being able to spend this much on done for you services right now, people spend or people notice the value they they see it, they recognize it. But you know, to be able to hire a company like ours, it might not be feasible for them right now, whereas they not only have a lower budget, but they have extra time right now to invest into learning some of these things for themselves. And then third is that to be completely honest, I don't see a long future and when I say long, I would say longer than about two or three more years in offering done for you services like this. And I say that because I feel like the industry or the market is going to To shift so much in a way that this needs to be actually genuine, you know, people are going to become so averse to anyone who's reaching out to them with this tone deaf style, that it's going to be incredibly difficult for any company to do this well on somebody else's behalf without charging an absolute arm and a leg for it, you know, basically about the same amount that you'd hire to put a sales development rep in a seat and just do it for you, you know. So those three things are all kind of combining to me wanting to shift towards training for the greater good and also just
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