About Bob Gentle

I work with businesses of all sizes on digital marketing, host the Amplify digital marketing entrepreneur podcast and work with entrepreneurs to help them amplify their business online.


Over the years I've heard a lot about Masterminds. I'm not talking about cartoon supervillains, I'm talking about business owners coming together in small private communities to help each other go further, faster.

I host masterminds, and I'm also a member of other people's. This week I asked mastermind veteran and the host of my favourite Mastermind group, Chris Ducker, to join me and talk about his business, journey, entrepreneurial isolation but most importantly about masterminds and what they can do for your business.

About Chris Ducker

Chris is a serial entrepreneur and author of the bestselling books,“Virtual Freedom”, and more recently, “Rise of the Youpreneur”.Based in Cambridge, England, he owns and operates severalbusinesses, including the VA recruiting hub, VirtualStaffFinder.com and the personal brand education company Youpreneur.com, that combined house over 350 full-time employees around the world.

He’s also a trusted international business mentor, keynote speaker,podcaster, blogger, as well as the founder of Youpreneur.com - theworld’s fastest growing personal brand business education company.

Chris hosts the annual Youpreneur Summit, which is held in London each November and is the self-proclaimed ‘Proudest Brit’ doing business online!

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Over the years, I've heard a lot about mastermind's, and I'm not talking cartoon supervillains, I'm talking about business owners coming together in small private communities to help each other go further and go faster. I just mastermind's. I'm also a member of other peoples. This week, I'm joined by mastermind, veteran, host of my favorite mastermind group, Chris Tucker, to join me to talk about his business journey, entrepreneurial isolation, but most importantly about masterminds and what they can do for your business.

Hi there. And welcome back to Amplify the Digital Marketing Entrepreneur podcast. I'm Bob Gentle, and every week I'm joined by amazing people who share what makes their business work. If you're new to the show, take a second right now to subscribe so you don't miss new episodes and you can grab some older ones when you're done with this one. Don't forget as well. You can join my Facebook community, just visit amplifying me, dot FM forward slash insiders and you'll be taken right there.

So welcome along. And let's meet Chris. So this week, I am thrilled to welcome the man who's probably the unofficial godfather of the podcast, gets mentioned more than anyone else, the legendary Chris Tucker, the show. Chris, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me back. I appreciate it. No, it's my pleasure. And I specifically asked you back because there are things I want to talk about, but for those people, it's a good start.

That's a very, very good start. I like it is a podcast, after all. Yeah, but for those people who don't know you, why don't you just sort of tell us a little bit about who you are, where you are and the kind of work you do?

Sure. Well, I mean, you know, I don't kind of you know, I don't have any kind of qualms about what I do. I ultimately help entrepreneurs build profitable future proof businesses around their expertise. That's what I do day to day. I am, however, still, as well as being a business coach and a, you know, a speaker and author and all that good stuff. I am also a serial entrepreneur. So I have several different businesses I own and operate.

We have almost 400 employees worldwide, multiple seven figure annual revenue. And you know that that's that's the stuff that sort of it's kind of got me to where I am now. But it's, funnily enough, not what I really focus on doing day to day anymore, because I've ultimately delegated to the point where I've removed myself from those businesses. So I don't need to be involved day to day. I still oversee, I still own and operate. I still have no partners.

I just have incredible management that take care of them for me so I can spend time with people like, you know, having partners. Honestly, the number of times I've told people partners are this sounds like a good idea. They're really not. Mm hmm. Anybody that's listening and they've got partners. I'm sorry. I didn't mean you, obviously.

I mean, to be honest with you, I you know, I've worked with hundreds of people right. Over the years. And I can honestly say to you that I I can count on one hand through working with hundreds of people, literally one hand, how many partnerships have worked out? Well, you know, the vast majority of them always end up in in in one way, shape or form, in a negative setting, whether it's, you know, one just absolutely doing all of the work and hating the other one and then buying the other one out, you know, in a disgruntled, you know, acquisition and, you know, of shares and all that kind of stuff like it.

I don't know. I'm old school. I've I've never had a partner. I know many people that have been down that road. It's not really worked out so well. So I kind of tend to stay away.

And I've got a partner with my wife. Yeah, she's she's awesome, you know, right there with you.

High five. And your wife is awesome. She is. So the last time you were on the show, it was to talk about your book Rise of the Your Partner, which if you haven't read it, listener, is literally a handbook to building a personal brand online and building a business around it. For me, it's had a huge impact on my business and on my practice. But again, you're not here to talk about your book again, but how is the book doing?

It's doing very, very well indeed.

You know, the one big difference with this book compared to my first, which was virtual freedom, other than the fact that this one was self published. Virtual Freedom was traditionally published with a publisher in the United States. You take take that kind of very obvious difference, you know, to one side.

The big difference for me on this one was that I actually I recorded the audio version of this book myself, whereas with Virtual Freedom Summer, I did it for me. And I've always looked back at that as a major error on my part in regards to allowing that to happen. Fact of the matter is actually that I didn't really have much choice in it. I signed the rights over like a lot of rookie novice authors do the first time round. And with the rise of the weapon, you know, I got to record it myself and by far hands down.

The audible version of that book has done better than paperback and Kindle hands down. And I think the reason why is because, you know, those people who discover me online a lot of the time, they'll either discover me via an interview like this right here on somebody else's podcast, or they'll discover me via my own show, Upin RFM. And so, you know, you kind of balance those up. And clearly, people are kind of used to hearing me from an audio setting and they go ahead and buy the audible version of the book, which is honestly my preferred way of getting that information to our prospective audience, community and customers.

I don't actually like audio books myself. I'd rather sit with a real book and. Read it and smell the pages, but if I want you, I know I'm more of a talker than a typer, and so I'd much rather get that information via my own vocal cords rather than somebody reading the words on the page of the book. If that makes sense. But yeah, short answer. The book's doing great.

We're happy with it. It does make perfect sense. And I have to say, when when you read the book, I can literally hear you talking in my head. It's a very, very vocally written book. It's a strange thing to say, but it's absolutely true. I think when I first came across you, it was on a podcast with what was Jamie Tarde, you know, Jamie Masters, OK at the time, I think going back probably five or six years ago.

Mm hmm. So I completely get that journey. I think you fell off my radar for quite a long time. But then I started thinking about personal branding and discovered your online community and eventually came along to your partner summit. And I guess the journey from that is what I really wanted to talk about today. First of all, clearly no summit this year, and that must be some pretty bad news. How have you adapted to that? Um, I mean, the you know, the official answer to that question would be, um, you know, we're we're doing what we need to do.

It would be irresponsible to hold a live event and our community did not want a virtual version of it. So we're rocking and rolling in other ways. The unofficial answer to that question would be, um, not very well, to be honest. I think and everybody knows this.

Who knows me for five minutes, they'll know that I'm a people person and that I am at my most happiest in the work that I do when I'm doing it in person. And that can be sitting around a table of ten people masterminding or it can be standing on stage in front of three and a half hundred people. Right. And, you know, I'm just I'm just a very big believer getting people together in person. And on more than one occasion, I have been, you know, that that the ability to be able to do that with the right people has been called a super power of mine.

And I you know, I don't take that sort of type of comment, particularly when you hear it over and over and over again from many people. I don't take that lightly at all. And so we put a lot of work, Bob, into the union summit every year. And this year it's been you know, it's been a bit of a weird year anyway, right. With everything considered, but it's been even weird. And now here I am, you know, recording this at the end of October with you.

Like this would be the time where, you know, the team and I are just, you know, neck deep in upin a summit prep.

I'm not doing it this year, which it just feels weird more than anything else. And a little.

Yeah, a little depressing. You know, I, I like putting that event on every year, but hopefully we'll be back next year bigger and better and better than ever before. You know, I think I actually want to dig into the history of the summit a little bit because where I eventually I want to talk about mastermind's. So for the listener who's thinking most popular to talk about, I want to talk about mastermind's, but is your superpower of bringing people together?

That has led to the fact that I want to talk to you about this rather than somebody else.

But one of the things that really impressed me was observing you used to live in the Philippines and that's I think I'm remote from the online world. I live in the north of Scotland, Philippines. Now, that's remote in terms of that world. And yet you've you built out there a very successful conference around digital marketing, bringing incredible people all the way to the Philippines.

How I would be something I have to ask, because a lot of people would look at that and think, well, he must just have amazing contacts or he must have paid them all to come. But in order for you to bring these pictures, you have to have a loyal tribe of people. Sure. That want to pay to come to support that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, the answer the question is all of the above, to be honest, you know.

Yes, I do. You know, I'm I'm very blessed to have a lot of friends that are incredible humans. They're amazing, you know, content creators or coaches or influencers. You know, that's kind of like the word of the year. Right. And you know, or the, you know, people who are names in the industry. But understand, you know, I've not fumbled my way into those relationships. Like, you know, these have been this is a ten year thing plus plots we're talking about here.

Right. So and it's not like I and like with any relationship that I built, I don't go into it with any ulterior motive other than just wanting to be useful. If I can be useful to somebody and provide value in some way, shape or form to them. I know that, you know, if they're the right type of person, that will probably be friends for a good while. And, you know, but but here's the flip side of the coin.

Not to get away from the question too much, but the flip side of the coin on that is that I don't need any more friends.

I've got enough friends. But it is nice to have acquaintances that, you know, you can get onto to with or have a dinner with when you're in town or, you know, just, you know, brainstorm for a couple of hours going back and forth on text and, you know, that sort of type of thing. And so, um, I think, you know, Tropical Tank is the amount you're referring to in the Philippines.

It you know, that came about I remember it like it was yesterday, actually. I was in Portland and it was 2013 and I was there for an event and it was myself. Who else was there? Myself and Amy Porterfield and Pat Flynn and John the Domus and a few other people were all there and I turned around.

We were out and we were doing cocktails one night and we were all a little, you know, little cocktail up, a little tipsy, and I think I turned around and said something along the lines of, you know what, you guys are losers. Every one of you, you call yourself friends. But I come to America three or four times a year to hang out with you guys. Now, ulterior motive. I also have, you know, clients in the United States as well.

I'm not just there just for them, but, you know, I come to America all the time and you've never been to the Philippines. And I think it was Amy, Amy Porterfield. I think I'll come to the Philippines, give me a reason to kind of thing.

And I think about literally two weeks later, I'd gotten about half a dozen people to say, yeah, OK, we'll come over, what are you going to do? And so literally, I think about seven or eight months later, we held the first tropical think tank and it sold out in less than 24 hours at four thousand dollars a ticket. We have 50 people plus our speakers and VIPs. I didn't pay anybody. So there's the answer to that question.

I didn't pay for anybody's flights. I looked after them once they arrived. They were, you know, driven around and put in nice hotels and all the rest of it. But it was just about supporting each other and about being there. And actually, the day before the conference itself, we had a one day long mastermind's, just the speakers. And I mean, you know, when you sit around a table with with individuals like, you know, like we are, that's worth traveling to the other side of the world for me for an entire day.

I mean, I've I've I've been I've been from London to Toronto in less than 48 hours there and back for an eight hour mastermind's because I put a premium on surround myself with the right people. I mean, a trip like that, you travel first class because there's no other way to travel. You travel first class, not when you got bad back anyway. You travel first class. You get in a hotel for the night literally, and then you finish a mastermind and you go direct from the masterminds back to the airport and then you travel home.

And, you know, by the time you put everything in, I mean, that's you know, it's a 10, 12 grand trip. But the value that you get out of surrounding yourself at a mastermind like that, I mean, I've made my money back in a week, literally.

Right. So, you know, I think it's relevant. And, you know, I think one of the reasons why tropical think tank did as well as it did for the five years it was running was because of the fact that not only did we attract great people to be up on stage, but we also attracted incredible people to be in the audience as well.

And so when we made the decision to move from the Philippines to the UK, we knew that it was going to be. A decision, a decision was going to have to be made. Do we carry on with tropical think tank and travel back every year or do we do something in the U.K.? And I think it was in 2006, we held like a one day mastermind event in London. And it was kind of like validation on steroids in regards to kind of like figuring out whether or not this was going to be something that people wanted.

And we validated it. And then we did the summit for the first time the next year in twenty seventeen.

Something I'm curious on your perspective on is isolation, because you were fairly isolated in the Philippines and. Yep. That didn't hold you back. Lots of people in the online space are quite isolated. I mean, yeah, I can think of lots of examples, but I can never think of the names. But lots of people look at that as a limitation. What advice would you give to anybody that's thinking, you know what? I've got great ideas, but I live in the back of beyond.

I can never do what I see these again. I'm using the air quotes. Influencers do what I where I live is less interesting than San Diego or London. What advice would you have for anyone listening?

It's it's it's all between your ears, literally, you know, like you can you can you can look at anything with a negative or positive outlook, right? You're absolutely right. The Philippines, there was no there was. And particularly where I was, I was in Cebu, which is an hour south of Manila, which is the capital. And even though there's a booming economy in Cebu, it ain't on it. It ain't online. It's not the online business world.

Right. And so you're right, the peer group was next to zero, but I never really felt like it really mattered because of the fact that I didn't allow that distance to get in the way of me chasing down my goals and dreams, which were to, you know, do business with great people internationally, which is what I've always done ever since I got into business. I've always run an international business. It was never a local business, ever.

So it was maybe a little bit more second nature to me to work internationally, to deal with time zones and international dialing codes and all that stuff. But, you know, you can learn that stuff just like I had to initially. But I think, you know, you can you can say, oh, man, I'm in the middle of nowhere. I've got no shot, you know, no chance. Or you can do what I did.

And that is, you know, spend the time, energy and effort to work your butt off, to get invited to speak at events, to put out great content, to write books that are going to be sold around the world to hold online events and in-person events as and when you can. I mean, it got to the point where from 2011 onwards, Bob, every time I was in America, which was three or four times a year, every single time I would speak an event and either the day before I spoke or the day directly after I spoke, I would run a private masterminds of ten people buy into that was fifteen hundred bucks.

So not only am I covering the costs for my trip now, but I'm also probably making a couple of grand out of it as well. But what do you think happened to the people that turned up to those one day masterminds? They all stayed within my ecosystem and many of them have paid me tens of thousands of dollars to be coached by me, to sit other mastermind tables, to travel around the world, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

And so it's just a mindset thing, man. I mean, anybody knows me, knows that I'm not going to be the type of person that's just going to sit back and kind of accept, quote unquote, defeat.

Anyway, it's not my style, but it is. It's just a mindset thing. I think it's like anything else.

Yeah, you have a lot more. And I've been saying this a lot this year with the pandemic and people having to deal with things that, you know, are somewhat out of their control. The fact is, yes, we can't control everything. But if you actually do look at your schedule, you look at your priorities, you look at the things that you're doing day to day, you have way more control over your life and what happens in it than you do not have control.

And so it really comes down to that mindset of do I let this affect me or do I not? So I want to talk mastermind's. This is actually why you're here. I remember it was probably about six, seven years ago. I was reading Napoleon Hill's book, Think and Grow Rich, which I think is where the idea of the mastermind first came about. And I'd never heard of them, never. And I'd be going to networking events for two decades.

So let's just be clear. Networking and masterminds, they're not the same thing. Not one one thing that struck me when I was thinking about what are we going to talk about was networking events where everybody goes to tell you how great they're doing. Mastermind's are where everybody goes to tell you, quite honestly, this is where I need help. Yes. And for me, understanding that, accepting that and embracing is probably the one thing that has made the biggest change in my business ever.

And this is very fresh and very new for me. I think in terms of formal mastermind's, the one that you launched last year is the first one I've ever actually joined. I'm curious to know what impact masterminds have had on your own business, on your own sort of growth over the last say we call it a decade. They have been, without a doubt, hands down the best investment of my money and my time in my entire career. I can't put it any more bluntly and his fewer words than that, um.

They've been astronomically important to my growth as a. Entrepreneur, but more importantly, probably from a leader perspective, from an employer perspective as well, you know, just huge, Bob, absolutely huge. And I think the big difference, the big reason, rather why is because you come to the table with this is what I'm struggling with and. Whether you were at the beginning of your business journey or whether you've been doing it for 10, 15 years.

Putting your hand up in front of a group of people, whether it be in person or virtually and saying I need help. Is the first step to not only getting the help, but also to growing in whatever it is that you're doing as well. And I think those that don't ask for help, they're just kidding themselves. We all need help. We all need help. And what better way to get help and from what better people to get help than those people that are doing exactly what we are doing.

They get it. They understand the struggle. And so I think that's the reason why mastermind's so incredibly important for entrepreneurs particularly to get involved with.

I think something that puzzled me is it hasn't puzzled me. I guess I'd look at, for example, there's the mastermind group that you hosted, which I'm a member of just putting out there. Everyone, it's a thing now I look at other people and other masterminds, let's say, for example, like, look at you and and you're in some mastermind's. They look on my amazing and I think, oh, I really wish I was in krisis.

I wish I wish I was in that one with Chris and all those other amazing people. There's a world in which I wouldn't be ready to make use of any of the information. It's a question of being in the right master mind. It would be inappropriate for me to be in those groups given where I am and the value that I would bring to that. So how do you manage the migration, I guess would be the way to put it?

Because there comes a point where you might there's no way I can describe this without sounding a little bit self-centered and selfish. So I do it and I don't do it because you need to be like that going.

I want you. I want you. Let me go into coach mode here for you.

Might you do do what you were going to say, like literally say what you're going to say right now. Do it.

I'm not suggesting this is the case in your group, but I've been in groups in the past, less formal ones where I feel that I'm giving a lot more than I'm getting. There's no equity there. There's no balance. Right. How do you know, OK, I'm in the wrong group now. I need to go and look for a new group or you know, the question I'm trying to ask. I'm just not managing to ask it now.

I hear no, no. I hear you loud and clear and I think other people do as well.

You're right about taking and not giving back enough. You know, and I've been part of mastermind's as well before in the past, where I've I mean, without without sounding too self-centered, where I've clearly been the most experienced person at the table or the smartest person at the table, whatever you want to whatever label you want to put on it.

And you can roll with that for a certain period of time. But then you start thinking yourself, I'm waste my time. Er I mean everybody, they're basically getting free coaching, they get free consultation every single month, every week, whatever it is.

Yeah. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Right, exactly.

And you, you know, once you once, once you start feeling like that you've got to make a decision. Am I okay with being top dog and ultimately turning up every week or every month and giving 90 percent and taking 10?

Or am I not okay with it if I'm not okay with it? And I don't do something about it. More fool me. Right, like more for me, because I'll end up resenting those people, probably I'll end up resenting the time that I'm investing in it, let alone any money that might come into it, et cetera, et cetera. And so here's my take on it, man. I think that at some point you're coaching clients well, either a kid themselves and think that they are further along than they actually are and leave because of that.

And that happens actually way more than you probably think it does.

Or the flip side of that is there's probably three different ways of looking at it.

Right. But that's the first way. The second way is I kind of feel like I've gotten to where I. Need to be out right now, Chris, or coach, whatever it is. What else have you got for me now it's up to you as the coach or the provider or the, you know, the service provider, the product creator, whatever you want to whatever label you want to have, it's up to you then to either a, serve them up something more high level, serve them up something different, serve them up, something that gets them up to the next level.

So they stay with you or you got to let them fly away from the nest, one or the other. And I think that, you know, this is where there's a fine line, I think, because obviously we're also entrepreneurs as well. We're all building businesses at the same time, the UPIN our incubator mastermind's is part of my business. It's not the business, but it's part of it. And it's definitely one that I want to grow going forward.

But I'm not going to do it to the point where I start making empty promises to people or where I stop showing up properly for people just because I don't want to lose that business. So I don't want them to fly from the nest. You know, if I don't enjoy what I'm doing as as the coach behind the upin our incubator, then that's more for me at that point. Like, I've got to continue doing what I do because I love doing it.

First and foremost, if I don't enjoy what I'm doing day to day, then I'm not only just letting myself down, but I'm letting the other people around me down as well, the people that are clients as well. And, you know, when I look at somebody like yourself, who, to use your words, has had the best year of his career as being part of the incubator and the other other reasons as well. But I know it's played a decent sized part.

And you being able to say that the only reason you've done that, Bob, is it's not entirely down to me, although I might have helped. It's not entirely down to the group, although it's definitely helped.

It's been down to you. You were the reason why you've had your best year ever. And that's because you've you've done what you needed to do to take the advice and put it into action and actually do the work.

And that's where so many people think that when the time comes around, for them to either renew that that mastermind fee or think about upgrading or not upgrading whatever, they look at what they've they've got in inverted commas compared to what they've invested or in their mindset at that point, what they've paid. There's a big difference between a cost and an investment, right? Yeah, but they look at that and I think, oh, I haven't I haven't got my money's worth.

Well, did you take enough action? To make that statement nine times out of ten, they didn't.

And that's OK, you have to let them go so they can figure that out on their own. Those that do take the action, boy, they're the people I want to work with.

I work with the bulbs of the world all day long, baby.

And I will be fired up to see them succeed as much as you have this year.

Well, that's very kind. So my next question is really, when you look at any kind of group, that group should really have a purpose and masterminds are no different. And I think your mastermind is really focused on personal brand entrepreneurs. Yes. How important is it, do you think that people come together as a group and are on an intentional journey together rather than all doing slightly different things?

I think it's I mean, it's it's everything because, you know, when we first opened up the doors to the upin our academy, which is all our membership, it's you know, it's it's the beginning of the human journey for our customers. It's right there at the beginning of that, that if you wanted to call it the customer ladder and you know, when we first opened the door to the academy, what, five years ago now, it was a free for all man, you know.

You know, we had everything from, you know, Amazon resellers to speakers to authors, to, you know, people selling. We have people selling inflatable beds in, you know, I mean, it was ridiculous. Like, it was just ridiculous.

And no matter what you did as the guy at the helm of that community, which I was and still am, there was always going to be a certain, you know, a certain section of that community, of that group that would listen to what you're saying. And it would go in one ear and out the other because it just wasn't relevant. But even worse than that, when they would have conversations with them themselves, I could see that happening as well.

And I knew that that needed to change. And I think we we only got like literally like eight months in before we made a big pivot and we rebranded and rebuilt the site and we re shaped our entire messaging to focus around building a business on your expertise that personal brands, business model of the business of you and that that, without a doubt was the biggest move we've made because it gave us the clarity not only for number one, attracting the right type of people into the group en masse, but also number two.

And probably even more importantly than that, to be honest with you, is it brought us the clarity that we needed from a marketing perspective, from a messaging perspective, because, you know, when you need out, a lot of people are very scared to nesh down because they think they're going to lose market share. That's not true. You might actually end up working with fewer people, but you can charge a heck of a lot more by Neshin down.

And so, you know, it's actually it's an easier business to run today than what it was five years ago. It's more pleasurable business to run. There's more fun involved. And because we're working with the right people, with the right framework, we actually get to celebrate more wins as well, which I think, you know, at the end of the day as a, you know, a coaching education business, that's what it's all about.

If your clients are not winning, then there's there's something wrong there, right?

Yeah, no, absolutely. So what I'd like to understand now, I guess, is so you have a master mind? I have a mastermind to people. Mine is really focused around helping people with their very first steps into digital marketing. And a lot of the time they're not digital natives. But I'm not really going to promote my master mind in this podcast because it's not what it's for. But what I would be curious to know is how do you define the ideal fit for your mastermind's?

Well, I think, you know, again, it depends on what you're wanting to do from the from a coach perspective. Right? I mean, you know, I could I could quite easily put together a package that would attract beginners in the personal branding space, people that are, you know, complete newbies, as my teenage son would almost teenage, some would say, you know, a complete newbie and a right at the beginning of their journey.

And I'd get a whole bunch of people.

And if we were just focused on helping people through that first year and a half to three years of building that personal brand, and that's all we focused in on, they'd have a heck of a time.

They'd love it. Right. Whereas if we got to. Com. And to kind of big a strategy focused for those types of people, they wouldn't enjoy as much, they wouldn't be taking as much action, they'd be getting more overwhelmed. Yeah. You know, and it wouldn't work well. So I think it comes down to deciding on the type of people that you want to work with first and foremost and at where they are and their journey as well.

And I think, you know, in terms of the youth in our incubator, we we have a sweet spot where we do actually have all our toes and a couple of different. Ponds, right where on one side we you know, we have a couple of those in a pond, which is people that have already got established personal brands, they've been going for a few years and they kind of want to really put their foot down on the gas, which is great.

The the the other pond, the other foot, the other toes. Right. Is dipping in a pond that are full of people that have been in business for, you know, a good while. They've got a certain amount of success under their belt, but they just really starting to get to grips with the personal branding side of things. But because of the fact that they're grown up entrepreneurs, just mieux, they're not complete beginners, they can fast track themselves, particularly when they're surrounded with other people that have already been there.

Yeah. And so I think that's where the incubator worked really, really well is because it is a slightly more mature group of people. There's no I don't think there's anybody south of maybe mid, early to mid 30s there. There's certainly no 20 somethings in there. I think probably the average age of somebody in the incubator is probably about 40.

Yeah. So, yeah, something along that lines.

So I think, you know, it it just comes down to like, who am I going to work with? I want to work with people that are a little bit more established. They've got a good career under their belt. They understand what their strengths are. They are not scared to put their hand up and say, these are my weaknesses, what do I do about them kind of thing. And I think it really just comes down and it doesn't matter where you got to people at the table or twenty to people at the table, it really comes down to understanding what it is you want to be known for, first and foremost.

And secondly, who are the people that need that help the most?

So if anybody's listening and they're thinking mastermind possibly sounds a bit rude, I guess the message should be coming across loud and clear. It's really not. If this is for me, probably one of the key drivers of any success. I've had made a huge difference in my business over the last two years. You've kind of echoed the same. So get yourselves in mastermind's people. Now, you told me the other day, are you ready to let the cat out of the bag?

You couldn't do the European summit this year now. So what are you going to do?

I'm going to sit back and drink tea and eat custard creams all day as we know.

So we're doing like I said, you know, it's been a it's a weird time because when you put on a big event like this summit, there's months and months and months of work that go into that. And I've it's not as if I've been sitting here twiddling my thumbs. I've been keeping very busy, don't get me wrong. But I felt like I needed to do something around this time just because it's what also it's what our communities kind of come to expect from us as well, even just our online community.

And so this year we're doing something we've never done before, ever. It's brand new training. It's brand new coaching. It's based quite heavily actually on the contents of Reisa, the opener. But I've not done a lot of this in person at all. And so we are holding for the first time ever our profitable personal brand bootcamp, which is so, so exciting.

Yeah, I'm pumped about it. I'm really excited about it. We're going to teach people how to build an audience, how to monetize their expertise to make money out of their experience and ultimately become future proof as a direct result of doing that. And that's going to be a lot of stuff that I cover over the few days. And we're going to go for about an hour, hour and a half every day for the three days in a row. It's free.

It's completely free for anybody to come along. They just need to register. And we're going to be going through, you know, a whole bunch of stuff in regards to, you know, that that audience growth, I think is like hyper important right now how to spread your message to, you know, a nice, solid, wide audience. We're going to be covering marketing funnels and helping people get their first email marketing funnel in place, as well as some more advance ideas as well.

We'll touch base on publishing a book and what that can do for positioning yourself as an expertise. And we're going to a whole bunch of stuff on content. We're going to actually help people plan out an entire ninety days worth of content right there as part of the boot camp as well.

That's one of the exercises we're doing. We're actually putting together like a ten page workbook for this, for people that there will be able to download and print out prior to the first session. And, you know, much like a lot of my teaching and coaching is based around my build market monetise structure all three days, as you can probably understand. They won build, they to market, they three malnati's and yeah, I'm pumped, I can't wait to do it.

I think I'm looking at who is involved in it just now. You've got Emily DeBacker, who is just going to be great fun, whatever she touches.

Well, yeah, these these are people that, you know, I've worked with and coached for many years. And, you know, their stories need to be told. And although that actually should make it clear, although they will not be live in the sessions themselves, they know it's going on. They know that I'm going to be talking about their successes and we're going to be utilizing them as great examples. We're talking about, you know, Emily is all Emma.

Amy, your self might be brought up, but it could happen, but it could happen. And a host of other people that I've been very, very blessed to call clients and work with over the years. But really, it's it's not about them. It's not even about me. It's it's honestly about the people that show up and what they want to bring to the world and who they want to serve. And so, yeah, you know, if I can if I can further that growth, if I can maybe potentially springboard that next stage at next that spurt of growth in their career, then it'll be all worthwhile.

Well, I hope it's a huge success. I'm looking forward to it. It'd be nice to get the opportunity to meet new people. I do have a community element to it. We do so we're going to be running it all on our private Facebook group, which people will get access to obviously once they go ahead and register. And obviously, you know, we'll be doing daily challenges and, you know, getting people to get involved and, you know, on a daily basis on that side of things as well.

And I'm almost 100 percent sure that I'm likely to do some sort of extra session on the third day, although this isn't finalized right now. But I'm almost 100 percent sure I'll be doing some kind of live mastermind break out elements for X amount of people. It could be free. We might charge a little bit just to make sure that we get the right people through the door. When I say a little bit, I mean 20 bucks or something, not not much, but just to have that additional element of accountability where we can hold people's feet to the fire a little bit.

I always love that phrase. I kind of put them on the spot a little bit, quite frankly, in regards to their plans and their goals and then hopefully, you know, continue working with them in some way or another in the future as well. I think for a lot of people listening that I've never been involved in a mastermind, this should give quite a good taste of what it might bring to your business. Absolutely. I I'm thinking even the free Facebook group elements to get a flavor of what it's like to mix with people who are on the same entrepreneurial journey with you should hopefully give you the confidence to understand what a mastermind like the incubator could do for your business.

So I wish you a lot of success with that. And I will see you there. Thank you. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. So if anybody wants to continue their journey with you, if they want to connect with you, how can they do that? Well, obviously, I'm at Chris Tucker on all the Sociales Chris Tucker dot com, or if they do want to get involved with the bootcamp, they can just go to Christopher dot com for slash boot camp and sign up.

We get going November 16 through to the 18th and it'll be great to have any of Bob's people there.

And if you have got an impaired memory, you'll find a link in the show. Notes to that. Chris, I always end with my signature question. And I guess simply put it, what's one thing you do now that you wish it started five years ago? Yeah, this is a good one, because, you know, I don't like to rest on laurels. I will say, though, however, that as I now get closer towards the big five over just a few years away, I do actually want to start slowing down a little bit.

And that doesn't necessarily mean the output diminishes. It just means I need to get even more smarter with the way that I'm working with our team and doing what I'm doing in the world. But the one big thing that's made a massive difference to me over the last couple of years, particularly in the last 12 months, has been, believe it or not, a focus at doing nothing. And it sounds really weird to say that. But there are times every single day now, including this day right here, that we're recording this where I have block out, I block out 30 minute chunks of time three times each day.

So it took about an hour and a half out of the workday where I have nothing on my schedule. And I have no motive at all to do anything in those 30 minute breaks, and sometimes I sit and read a book, sometimes I might, particularly over the last three or four months or I've gotten back into sketching, which I used to do a lot when I was younger. Um, I'll sit and sketch sometimes. I might actually watch, you know, a bit of a film and then come back to it later on with my wife or whatever.

But I think the ability to be able to take time out to quote unquote to do nothing is something that a lot of entrepreneurs need to really seriously start considering, because burnout is happening more often than not, CEOs having heart attacks in their frickin 30s is happening more often than not or more often than ever before. And I just kind of feel like slowing down and smelling the roses, so to speak, as they say, is maybe not a bad strategy for overall health, wellness and growth as a business owner.

So that's actually generally what I wished I was doing five years ago and even five further years back and five more years before that, it was just genuinely saying it's okay to do nothing today. Because if there's one thing I do know about being an entrepreneur is it's all right to have a bad day, but you can't have a bad week because bad weeks turn into bad months. Bad months turn into bad quarters. And you can see where I'm going with this, you know.

And so I feel like if you feel like you need to hit the pause button, take some time off for for the day, then then do it. But you've got to get back on the horse, man. The next day. You can't let that roll over. And that's why I take those breaks. It helps me to keep things balanced.

I love that. It's really it's very easy to be intentional about productivity. It's far harder to be intentional about being unproductive in that balance. It's really it's extreme balance. It's a really, really strong discipline.

I think I'll tell you something, the big thing is, is that when I am quote unquote at work, either side of those those pauses, those spaces on the calendar I'm on like I'm dialed in BOP and I'm from from beginning to end whether whether I might have to work on one particular task over two work sessions with a break in the middle, or whether I just blow through it in one work session, whatever it is, I find myself being a lot more productive, a lot more switched on and a lot more focused and clarity driven than I ever have been before because I'm taken that time off regularly throughout the course of the day.

Chris Tucker, as always, you have been a fantastic IT guest, very, very generous with your knowledge and experience. I've had a great time, had a lot of my questions answered. So thank you very much for your time and can't wait to see you again soon. Yeah, looking forward to it, man. Thanks for having me back. There are masterminds all over the world there in person online, and then there are hybrid. They range from free and far more things through modestly priced groups to high level and elite groups like those Chris was speaking about.

No matter who you are, you will do better with others on the same journey. Before I go. Just a quick reminder to subscribe. And if you haven't already, then join our Facebook group. You'll find a link in the show, notes or visit, Amplify Me, Dot FM Forward Slash Insiders. I would love for you to connect with me on social media. Find me wherever you hang out. Just search at Bob Gentle. And if you do, message me and let me know so I can follow you back.

If you enjoyed the show, then I would love for you to review on iTunes. It would mean the world to me and this is the best way to help me reach more subscribers. My name is Bob Gentle. Thanks again to Chris for giving us his time this week and to you for listening and see you next week.


What is the right thing for you to be spending your time on? This is a big question for a lot of people and it's hard to get advice on this because where you can both give and receive value changes over time. It changes with experience and changes as your business grows.

This week my guest is Matt Paulson. Mat is the author of five books on digital marketing and online business. He now runs a business offering financial market intelligence turning over 10 million dollars a year. Where others might build a coaching business around there books and online success, Matt had to make other decisions.

About Matt Paulson

Matt Paulson is the founder and CEO of MarketBeat, an Inc. 5000 financial media company that publishes stock market news, data, and research tools. MarketBeat was recognized as the fastest-growing privately held company in South Dakota by Inc. Magazine in 2016 and has since been recognized by Barron's, Entrepreneur Magazine and several other publications for its continued growth and success. Receiving more than 15 million monthly page views, MarketBeat is arguably South Dakota's widest-reaching vertical media company.

As an active private equity investor, Matt has invested in more than 60 small businesses and high-growth startups, including Buffer, Dollar Shave Club, Lime, Lyft, Ripple, and Wikia. He has significant real estate holdings that includes interests in more than a dozen hotels and apartment complexes. He also serves as the chairman of Falls Angel Fund, which makes early-stage capital investments in high-growth companies in South Dakota and surrounding states.

In 2019, Matt founded Startup Sioux Falls, a community organization that aims to connect founders with each other and with the startup ecosystem. He provides leadership to several other startup organizations and events, including 1 Million Cups, Hey Sioux Falls, Innovation Expo, and the Zeal Center for Entrepreneurship. He has also published eight business and personal finance books, including 40 Rules for Internet Business Success, Email Marketing Demystified, The Ten Year Turnaround, Automatic Income and Online Business from Scratch.

Links and mentions

Thanks for listening!

It means a lot to me and to the guests. If you enjoyed listening then please do take a second to rate the show on iTunes.  Every podcaster will tell you that iTunes reviews drive listeners to our shows so please let me know what you thought and make sure you subscribe using your favourite player using the links below.

Automatic Audio Transcription

What's the right thing for you to be spending your time on right now? This is the big question for a lot of people, and it's hard to get advice because where you can both give and receive value changes over time, it changes with experience and it changes as your business grows this week. My guest is Matt Paulson. Matt, the author of five books on digital marketing and online business. He now runs a business offering financial market intelligence, turning over a 10 million dollars a year where others might build a coaching business around their books and their online success.

Matt had to make other decisions. Hi there. And welcome back to Amplify the Digital Marketing Entrepreneur podcast. I'm Bob Gentle, and every Monday I'm joined by amazing people who share what makes their business work. If you knew, then take a second right now to subscribe so you don't miss new episodes and you can grab some older ones when you're done with this one. Don't forget as well, you can join my Facebook community. Just visit, amplify me to forward slash insiders and you'll be taken right there.

So welcome home and let's meet Matt. So this week, I am thrilled, more thrilled, and I'm always thrilled to say that even more thrilled than normal to welcome to the show, but why don't you start by telling the listener a little bit about who you are, where you are and the kind of work you do.

Yeah, so I am a business owner in Bayside Sioux Falls, South Dakota. I run a company called Market Beat. It's a financial media business. So we published news and information about the stock market. And it's a business that has scaled really well. I started it about 10 years ago when I kind of had the idea to do an investing website. And we've grown it to the point where we have about one point seven million people that get our investment newsletter every morning over email you.

We send over one hundred millions of dollars a month. We get about 15 million pages a month on our website has become a really nice business. Obviously, it's taken many years to get here. But it's I'm very happy with where we are today. Also have some other projects that I'm working on. I'm doing a lot of real estate investing right now. I claim to fame is I've been an expert on email marketing. I've got another business called Gogo Photo Contest that helps animal shelters raise money.

I've written some books, so just a lot of different stuff going on.

So most people listening will be thinking, I didn't know Bob was interested in investing. And obviously I'm mildly interested in investing, but not to the degree where I am. One of your 15 million page views a month. I'm really not.

But I heard you on a podcast five years ago, Jamie Masters Eventual Millionaire podcast, and it was one of very few interviews that's really stuck in my head. And I've been on your mailing list since 2015, and I counted the number of emails I've had from you. It's one hundred and fifteen. And like you said, you're known as the email marketing guy. And this is really what fascinated me about your business, is the consistency with which you send emails and that the diversity of topics led to when an email came in the other day, I thought, I want to speak to my share.

And that's how email marketing works. And lots of people tell me email marketing doesn't work. And when I speak to clients and prospects and I talk about email marketing, there's always this instinctive resistance because it feels spammy, feels scummy, it feels sleazy, and you're in a very traditional business space.

And a lot of people wouldn't think about modern, but obviously it has to be a modern setup. But they wouldn't think about something like email marketing as being the engine that sits under a business like that. Yeah, you said you started this business. You had the idea to start the business ten years ago. And I guess that's where I would like to start because saying I had an idea to start a business. It's a very simple thing to say.

But yeah. What did that look like and what was the journey? Yeah.

So I mean, did the journey really started in two thousand six and at the time I was a college student, I was really into personal finance. So I started a personal finance blog. It was called Getting Green was the original name. It was on blog or dotcom. And you know, a lot of people are very personal finance blogs back then. And it was kind of the cool thing to do. So that's kind of how I got started in the Internet business game.

But I wrote probably three or four stories a day and I did that for three or four years and that was able to make a healthy mid five figure income. I was looking for ways to diversify that because, you know, it's kind of dangerous to have all your eggs in one basket when you're doing Internet business so that the tangential thing to that was doing a website about investing. And that led to the launch of a website called American Banking and Market News.

It's still up today at American Banking News.com. If anybody wants to see it, it hasn't changed much, but it's still there.

And they're kind of brilliant idea that I kind of came, that it was really a combination of two things that turned this in, I guess transformed me from being a personal finance blogger, one of one hundred people doing it. I not doing it very well compared to some other people to really a successful Internet business owner in one was I figured out how to get my news stories inside Google News and big news and Yahoo! News. And then, too, I figured out how to create software that would make financial news articles based on data so we could take like a company's quarterly earnings announcement and use software to extract the important data out of that and turn it into an article that somebody could read.

So my my writing cost for somebody to produce an article. Really went down to zero, and that allowed us to produce one hundred articles a day if we wanted to, because whenever, like the CEO of any company sells their stock, we could take that data and turn it into an article saying, Tim Cook at Apple Store. One hundred thousand shares of Apple stock today. And here's why that's important. And here's how the other times he's bought and sold stock.

Here's what else is happening with Apple. And if you go to American bank and use that, you can see those types of articles are still there.

But being able to produce content at scale is in our automated software really allowed us to get a big foothold into those the new search engines. So Google News, big news, Yahoo! News and the finance sections of Google and Yahoo! And being as well, because not many other people are producing one hundred articles a day. So we would show up on a lot of what they call ticker pages. So you would search for like Microsoft. And then our news story about Microsoft would be there would get people back to American banking, to market news.

Hopefully they would sign up for our email list and we're really off to the races. So that's kind of how that business got started. It evolved over time, certainly like any business would.

But, you know, initially the play was just to get people on a website and then to get them to click on ads.

But I knew that wasn't sustainable because I really felt like a traffic hack and hack that work today, my network tomorrow. It turns out that traffic back ended up working for about 10 years before it really stopped, thankfully. So I got really lucky there.

But I thought, you know, there is an audience of people that are interested in investing in stocks, individual companies, researching them, learning about them.

And if I had them on an email list, you know, I really wouldn't need Google as much anymore because when I have something new to share, I can just email them the link versus hoping to come back to Google typing in the same stock ticker again, hoping my article gets gets the ranking for it and hoping to click on the link.

So it's just much more of a sure thing. One of the early focuses can email sign up on a newsletter. I later figured out we could put ads for financial products in that newsletter. So now advertising newsletters and just sending out emails for advertisers is a big source of revenue for our business. We also kind of figure out the premium subscription component. So we have about ten thousand three hundred people that are on premium subscriptions right now for our premium newsletter and then our investment research software.

So people will pay either twenty dollars a month or forty dollars a month to access some additional features on our website. So that's very reasonably priced.

I would have expected it to be higher. So as your sort of customer base within market beats, it tends to be small investors, domestic investors, if you like.

Yeah, it tends to be people that are later career and recently retired and they are interested in the stock market in the same way that somebody might be interested in a sports team.

So they've got their companies. They know they like to follow the news. What's going on? Every little bit of every little news bit they want want to read about it because, you know, they think, you know, if I know anything more about the stock, I'll be I'll be more quick to trade it. And for better or for worse, some people do well, some people don't.

And but there are people that the stock market is their hobby and they like to brag to their buddies on a golf course about what stocks they bought that did well. And, you know, maybe the ones that didn't do so well, these kind of sweep under the rug.

But that's kind of the audience as it tends to be, 80, 90 percent men there all tend to be older, like career people. And, you know, we've really found a niche with those people. So they're not on Facebook. So we can't do Facebook ads.

They're not on Instagram so much. I like to reach our audience. We really have to do marketing in a very different way than if you listen to any of the the standard marketing or business growth podcast. And we can't do a lot of the things that are hot right now because they don't work for our audience.

So I kind of threw you off your stride a little bit with a question there. But this is sort of two thousand six. This began. And I think people have to customize back to 2006 and think what the Internet was back then. There wasn't actually that much in terms of social media and there weren't. That many. I mean, we're talking the time when everybody was still talking about Web 2.0, even thinking about it, actually never mind doing it, the ad is the standard way to, like, promote content and ways to share it.

I'm Dick Dotcom and Reddit. Dotcom had just launched at that point.

And there are all these different social bookmarking sites like Delicious and Stumble Upon that. People would share their articles too, and hopefully those sites would promote your stuff. And that was really kind of the name of the game at the time. People were doing a lot of guest blog posts. That was that was a thing early on that people did.

And, you know, there was no sharing articles to Facebook or Twitter.

That was very much a new thing back then. I mean, Twitter launched in 2006.

But this is why this is why I think you're a really, really useful case study, is because a lot of a lot of people complain, though. You have to pay to play. You have to you have to do the social media. You have to do all kinds of complicated things in order to be successful online. But email still there and.

It's still working for you a lot along the way, you've written more books than most.

I haven't counted them, but I've counted one, two, three, four, five, five books.

I think there are more. Yeah, there's eight. So. At what point and what's also interesting in the way you wrote your books is you started with personal finance and anyone who knows anything about business knows that. Businesses tend to lose money, and it's not because they're about making money, is because they're bad at looking after it. And that was why I thought it was quite interesting that you started with personal finance and how to save money rather than how to spend money or how to make it.

How important is that aspect in your own business philosophy?

Yeah, you know, one of our core values is to protect our profit margin. So historically, market operated at a 70 percent profit margin, which is very, very unusual for businesses.

We sell digital products and services and advertising. So our expenses, you know, their web hosting their people and they're buying advertising. So, you know, my thought is, you know, if I can, you know, a 10 million dollar business a year that makes seven million dollars in profit is just as valuable as a 30 million dollar business that makes seven million dollars in profit. So there's a lot of things that we don't spend money on that a lot of people would spend money on, like historic.

Like we didn't have an office until five months ago. And this is a company that's been incorporated for 12 years.

We finally decided, you know, maybe it's time to get an office 12 years in that business.

We just ironically, you get an office when everybody else is giving theirs up at. Oh, yeah.

Now, there's something you could argue that there's a master stroke of genius there somewhere. Yeah, there's there's something to be said about being a contrarian. You know, the other operating with covid.

You know, there was a lot of fear in commercial real estate this year, myself and a business partner, a guy named Kevin Tupi, we use that opportunity to to buy up apartment complexes when everybody else was scared people weren't going to pay their rent.

And now that people are less scared of code than they were five months ago, like there are some new transactions that have happened in our market where we bought stuff at maybe a six and a half cap and now there are transactions at a five and a half cap again.

So it's really what opportunities get created when other people are scared.

So there's so many places I want to go with you. I think I'm going to stick with VentureBeat for a little bit market be rid of VentureBeat market, but it's much better.

Better. But I know you do lots of other things. How and in terms of percentage, how much of your revenue, I guess, is VentureBeat? Is that still the main thing you spend all your time on? Are you sort of distributed across other things?

You know, Market B is kind of that the horse that pulls and everything else, you know, it's it's 90 percent of my income probably. So I mean, that's the main job. That's the office I'm at every day. But it does get intertwined with a lot of other things.

I have some nonprofit projects that I do. And, you know, I tend to work on everything all at once or on a given day. I might have ten things to do and six of them are Market B and two of them are nonprofit things. One might be a real estate thing and just kind of all blends together. And I can learn to be OK with that over the years.

There's one of your books I would like to talk about and I haven't read it, I'll be quite honest with. I've read email marketing Demystified in the Forty Rules, but the online business from scratch. I have not read. And I'm really curious to ask you about that, because right now is a great time for a lot of people to be thinking, you know what? I was never really happy with what I was doing and the whole world in crisis right now.

So people are making changes and you've seen so many trends come and go. You've been in and out of so many recessions. If you were parachuted into a city and you were told, OK, market is not yours anymore, it's not running, all your money is gone, what would you do? Well, you know, I kind of recognize that, you know, it takes time to build something that's worth keeping. I would do two two things.

I would go get a job as fast as I can, pretty much anywhere to create kind of a sustainability in my life where I could work, you know, work a job and then think about what kind of business I want to build on the side. You know, as time goes on, I feel like it takes probably two to three years to build a real good online business.

And you obviously need to eat during that time. So I get a job to give myself some space just to think about what kind of business I want to build. And the other thing I would do is set up as many coffee and lunch meetings as I possibly could with business leaders in that community. I would try. To get to know the players, I would try to learn what opportunities there are to build a business in that community, and I would try to become kind of a critical asset to that community and be a key player in anything I can be.

I feel like that's where opportunities tend to come up.

If everybody knows who you are, if you are known to be a person that does things and makes things happen, you know, you tend to find yourself being a lot more lucky and more opportunity to show up on your lap. I've met my real estate partner because of who I am in the community, not because of anything else.

So, yeah, employees the same way, just investment opportunities have come up. So I think there's real value in having a personal brand, especially a personal brand, where you where you live like anybody can be.

Not anybody can. But like there are a lot of people that have a podcast or YouTube channel and are you have an audience. Right.

And those are good things.

You know, they can become great businesses, but the people that tend to reach out to you because they listen to your podcast, it's very rare that you're going to start a business with one of them more often.

What I found when I was trying to do the expert guru, online business owner kind of thing was it just created more more people that were looking for help and it didn't create a lot of business opportunities for me. So if we can kind of dial that back over the last couple of years and say, OK, maybe I don't need to be a Pat Flynn or a Jamie Masters or anybody like that, maybe I can just be that person in Sioux Falls and maybe that that means maybe that's a better thing to do.

I think there is a danger, I guess. And I think what's different from you, with you, I guess, is a lot of people that move into the online expert space, that's what they're monetizing, whereas you have a very successful business, but you also have a wealth of knowledge that other people can benefit from. But it doesn't really make a commercial sense for you to do that because your other thing is doing ridiculously well. So what other ways can people learn from you that allows you to leverage your time?

I think I totally yeah.

What I kind of figured out is where that where the money tends to be made for this online guru space is to do with the online courses and mastermind and coaching and all those things take a lot of time that I don't have that kind of decided not to do them intentionally because, you know, one, I don't want people to think. I don't want people to think I'm in it because I want to make money off them.

That's really not the case.

And two, I like to do things so I can share information, know maybe for an hour or two of time into it, like a podcast or a blog post or video, and then share it on my website and just put it out into the world for anyone to see. And I think that's been a good balance for me market. I think we're going to do north of 10 million this year. Next year could be 20 or things. OK, so like, I just don't need that hundred dollars.

I like I'm not I don't care. I don't need that money now. I'm not worried about it. There's plenty of other good online courses out there. But you know, once, once a week, once every other week, maybe I've got something to say, maybe I had a conversation that triggered some thoughts and like I wanted to put those in writing or on a video where I could share them out for people. And that's kind of what I've been doing lately, is, you know, one of my goals here was to put out 50 blog posts into the world or videos in 50 pieces of content.

And this is one of them, I guess, and really share information way.

I really like that because I think it's important to play to your strengths, and that sounds quite a simple cliche thing to say, but you have a very successful business. You're not going to be any more successful by giving up more of your time for less productive and profitable things. It makes no sense. That's that's something I don't think people understand.

Always is that, you know, I get a lot of business opportunities presented to me or opportunities to invest or partner into somebody's business.

And they always start with think about, you know, how much money you can make from this.

And it's like, well, you know, if there's no shortage of money right now and I put a whole bunch of time into something else that takes time away from this awesome financial media business, I bet. So, you know, there's a possibility that me doing something new would end up costing me a lot of money. So I've really got to consider, like, if I'm going to do a new project like I we have with real estate and the last four months, like, I have to really understand what the cost benefit analysis of that is and make sure it is a good use of my time, because most of the time that's not the case.

So over the years, you have put a lot of time and effort into building this personal brand.

And I'm curious to know, because you strike me as a moderately introverted person, would that be fair to say?

I'd say that's the case. OK, you know, I can give you a couple minutes a day. And after that, I tend to be you know, if I'm in meetings out, I'm just dead by the end of the day.

And the reason I ask is the personal branding side of things is it's quite challenging and it's difficult to do. And a lot of people resist it, particularly introverts, because there are lots of things you can do in business that are easy, but that don't require you to push yourself out of your comfort zone. There are lots of business owners who, when I meet them, they they really resist showing up in their own content. They resist being known as the business owner in a particular business.

I find this particularly the case in traditional brick and mortar businesses that they don't mind going to networking events or sort of joining the local chamber. But when it comes to actually showing up online and being visible where you can actually build relationships of scale, they really resist. So I'm curious to know what your perspective on that would be as somebody who is in not a traditional business, but a business that's effectively been around for hundreds of years, the sort of financial industry.

Yeah. What does doing that led to in terms of opportunities or what would you say to anybody that was thinking that I just can't bring myself to do that.

You know, it's just created a lot of different opportunities for me that, you know, didn't exist 10 years ago when I was working at my home office in my basement and never really leaving much during the day. You know, building a personal brand both in my community and online is it's just helped in terms of relationships. You know, every employee that I have is somebody that I've met either at a conference or at a at a local event in Sioux Falls or at a coworking space.

I built my team just through personal networking like we don't do job postings at Market B, we have nine people and they've all just kind of been handpicked. And we go out and find people that we like or we know and we hire them.

So that's been a big benefit. It just created a lot of opportunities in terms of business partnerships. Like most of our ad sales go through go through an agency out of Chicago called Investing Media Solutions.

I met their team at a conference and they you know, that relationship has turned into a multimillion dollar a year deal because they showed up at a conference, had some conversations and found a business relationship that that's worked. You know, my real estate partner, Kevin, to be you know, I met him because, you know, I was somebody in the community and, you know, there was another person that thought he and I should meet and have a conversation.

So you don't really know where life's going to take you. You don't know whether you know what opportunities are going to show up. You don't know how lucky you are going to be.

But I just feel like if everybody everybody that should know your name, knows your name, just got more opportunities tend to show up, whether it's locally in person or online or in any capacity.

Now, that's a really good answer.

I guess I'd like it to come back to the books because they, I guess, are a big part of your personal brand, or at least were, I think when I asked you earlier said that the books aren't really a central feature of.

And what you're up to right now. Yeah, but anybody who has written books, I like to understand how they came to write them and what that process was actually like and what they what they led to in terms of opportunity. Because, I mean, obviously, this is a digital marketing podcast. Yeah. But we're talking email marketing. And I'm curious to know if the books had an impact on things like list building and things like that.

Yeah, and it's probably, you know, not many people write eight books in like three years. So I think telling that story briefly might be might be useful.

But I anybody who had built a business on building Amazon books sorry, there's a train in the background, but I know it sounds fantastic.

Yeah, I know about a block away from the train that comes through downtown there. I mean, yeah, we just let that go by, OK?

I think it's gone by. But but he was used to it about 30 grand a month selling Kindle books. He goes by Steve Scott on Amazon.

It's not his real name, but that's kind of his stage name or pen name. So he had maybe 30, 40 books on Amazon. His was thirty, 30 grand a month and passive income on his books.

They always and I thought, well, you know, if Steve can do this, I feel like I could do that, too. And I got to about I got to eight. And then I was like, OK, this is not a good use of my time. Well, relative to Market B, I kind of said everything I want to say at this point. Maybe I'll write more books later. But for now I think we're. You know, I kind of said what I wanted to say in books am I do have some other ideas for books that I might want to publish in the next couple of years, but it's hard to justify writing a book that might make you best case scenario.

Fifty thousand dollars. When you have a business that is making over a million dollars a month is it's just you can't justify the time.

No, I really understand that. And I think a book you're either doing it for business in order to support a business or you're doing it as part of a personal mission. Yeah, and if email marketing, digital marketing, it's not really aligned with your personal mission right now, then it doesn't make sense. So I totally get that.

What I do want to do in the future is, is maybe write a book about like investing mistakes that people make or common traps that investors fall into and maybe publish that on Kindle or as a book, because I feel like that could be a good kind of lead generation magnet as maybe a bonus to give out to people that sign up for a premium subscription, or maybe they just buy the book on Amazon and hear about market be that way.

That could be something that we do that that would make sense in terms of the business.

And that's kind of how I think about it, is you publish a book, try to get it well, read on Amazon, get lots of reviews.

And inside the book you have a prominent promotion of your email list and maybe have like a bonus chapter or bonus auto audio recording that's available. But then you have to go to the website and type in your email address to get access to that.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. So we've spoken a little bit about distraction and getting sort of deviated from your core business. And what I really like is that you have always snapped back to market beat and anybody that has a successful business, that doesn't happen by accident. It happens because you're disciplined and you're diligent. And I'm curious to understand how you manage your time, because if anybody's doing well, it's because they're managing time well. So I'm curious to know what your processes, practices and so forth are around.

How do you manage your time?

Well, I mean, there are some special limitations I've kind of placed in my life that have really helped with this.

I do no more than 10 meetings a week, you know, and if there's a meeting that wants to show up after that, I say, OK, that's either next week or it's just not happening. And that really takes time for one my family and then to freemarket BS because, I mean, if I wanted to, I could get into twenty five meetings a week with different people that, you know, want business advice, non-profits that want help or just any number of things that come up.

So I really tried to to keep a lid on that a little bit. The other thing that I've done that's, that's really helped in the last year and a half is I've hired an executive assistant.

Her name is Maureen and she's fantastic. But I put her in charge of scheduling my meetings. And then that way she sticks to the rules better than I would. Yeah. That I can't get myself in trouble.

So she is kind of a good, good barrier to prevent my prevent me from overstretching myself. And, you know, I've got some other boundary safe place in my life. I get home from work at three thirty pm every day because I pick up my kid from school at two forty five pm every day. And you know, I tend not to do a lot of work after that. So I, I try to squeeze most of my work in between about 18 to 30 and then maybe sometimes I work on a Saturday morning or Sunday afternoon when the kids are asleep or plain.

But you know, I, I try not to work that 60, 70, 80 hour weeks that I maybe I did when I was single, because just the life phase I'm at right now, I've got an eight year old and then a four year old at home and our four year old has some special needs. And, you know, just our kids are pretty demanding timelines right now. And I want to be available to them. I don't want to be the absent business owner father.

I want to be around for them. So I've had to be very careful about what I say yes to. There are some people in my community that serve on six or seven different nonprofit boards. I've kind of limited myself to three of them. And as new opportunities show up to do that kind of stuff and just say, sorry, I'm at my limit right now, feel free to ask me next year and maybe something will free up. So I've just had to become really careful about what I say yes to in NYC, no to.

And again, something I always like to understand with people who are being successful is what do you actually struggle with? Which areas of the business or with life to do less?

Well, yeah, honestly, like overextending myself has been the biggest challenge I've had in the last ten years. I like to say, yes, I'm kind of a people pleaser. I've really had to fight back against that. Just. Putting some of those systems and processes in place to prevent myself from doing that, because, I mean, if I was unchecked, I would schedule like six meetings for myself every day and it would just get out of hand.

Well, Matthew, you have been an awesome guest. Anybody listening who thinks that this hasn't been a very digital marketing podcast? I would urge you to go and read Matt's books. They're not a big part of your life right now, but they are a very valuable resource for anybody that wants to get really straightforward, logical, simple advice for digital marketing. They're sort of unusually clear. Lots of people get sort of very woolly and vague and there's no padding in your books.

It's all good stuff. So I want to use this opportunity to say thanks for that.

Yeah. Now, if anyone's interested in my books, you just go in and type in Matt Palsson passing Espejo. I saw it on Amazon and they're right there.

You know, email marketing Demystified is really the best selling book I'm about in a marketing. But then Online Business from Scratch is really a good book for anyone that's thinking about starting an online business, but maybe has it hasn't started yet or don't really doesn't really have a process to follow.

To start that business, so I encourage your listeners to maybe check out both of those three dollars on Kindle. So hopefully that's not a barrier to anybody.

But if people want to connect with you, how would you like them to do that? Yeah, the best way to get a hold of me is to email me. My email address is Matt Matt Post.com. You can Google my name.

I'm not hard to find them on all the social networks. You type my name into Google, and I'm pretty easy to find and contact, so I try not to heighten. There's a contact form on the website, there's an email address. Any of those or send me a message on LinkedIn, anything like that.

I'm happy, happy to chat with people, but just don't ask him to join the nonprofit board.

Are you. Can you is not. I am only kidding. And Matthew or rather I always try and end with one question and that's what's one thing you do now that you wish you'd started five years ago.

Oh I wish I, I wish I had focused on taking the money that market bit was making and investing it into new investments that make income. Five years ago I started doing real estate investing seriously about a year ago and I honestly wish I had started that a little bit sooner in terms of buying, you know, investing in apartments in commercial real estate. And I had a rental house. But that that wasn't a great success because of there are like seven other guys that also owned it.

And it just kind of turned me off to it.

And what I've learned is like it is so much easier to buy bigger assets that are managed professionally.

And, you know, it takes less money than you think to do some of this stuff because you can get bank loans like, you know, I've got like a 10000 square foot commercial real estate building or a building in Sioux Falls here.

And I own half of it in my cash outlay. And that was three hundred thousand dollars. And, you know, that is a lot of money to a lot of people. But in terms of like owning a building where you have Starbucks as a tenant and as a captive audience, which is a sandwich shop as a tenant and a couple of other tenants in that space, that's not a lot of, you know, relative to what it is.

It's not a lot of money.

I just wish I had had started doing some of that sooner.

Yeah, I would love to talk about that some more, but we're out of time and I don't want to take too much of yours because I know it's very, very precious. So my person, thank you so much for your time. You've been a fantastic guest. Thanks for being so open in this conversation. I'd love to meet you sometime, but you are very far away from me, so. Yes. Thank you very much for your time.

Thank you, Bob. Being open to change and adapting as your situation changes is an important mindset when things are going well. It's important not to settle and when things are going badly, it's equally important not to be too proud to look inside for the reasons why. Before I go, just a quick reminder to subscribe. And if you haven't, then join our Facebook group. You'll find a link in the show, notes or visit up, if I may form forward slash insiders.

I would love for you to connect with me on social media. You'll find me on all the socials at POB gentle. And if you do, let me know. Message me that way I can follow you back. If you enjoyed the show, then as always, I would love for you to be on iTunes, iTunes in particular, because they drive me the most traffic and it's the easiest to subscribe to. It's also the very best way to help me reach more subscribers.

My name is Bob Gentil. Thanks again to Matt for giving us his time this week and to you for listening. And I'll see you next week.

In this post I’m going to show you How to rank your local business in google searches in 2020 in four simple steps. For most businesses ranking well in Google for a target search term is something they leave to chance. But it doesn’t have to be that way.

If you’re a local business then there are some simple ways you can give your website is real boost in the search engines.


The difference between position one and position eight in a Google search equates to the difference between more enquiries than you can handle and tumbleweed… so isn’t it worth doing everything you can to rank well?

Stick around and I’ll show you how.

Grab My Traffic & Conversion Prompts

All my ideas in one handy mind map.

For local businesses discoverability matters. Being offered as an option when someone is searching to fill a need clearly a good thing and in a local market it’s not too much to expect from Google. 70% of online sale begin with a Google search… so this matters.

This isn’t an exhaustive post about search engine marketing. This is quick guide to the things every business owner should do but which most don’t bother with. Google has hundreds of ranking factors but if you focus on these four elements you can see some surprisingly good results.

Step 1 – Your Google my business account

First of al claim and complete your Google my Business Account. This is your businesses official listing page with Google. You must complete every field in as many of the forms as possible. Within this profile you can also manage your Google reviews and post to your Google my business social stream.

Reviews and posts are important. Google wants people to get when they need so reviews are something they really reward. The same goes for posting to the Google my business social stream.

Lastly you should verify your address with Google. This is also done through your Google my business account and involves them sending you a postcard with a code on it. This is needed so they can be sure of where your business exists, that you are legit and they’ll also then show you on a map search.

Step 2 – Fix your website

Most website were built by people who didn’t really know what the search engines were looking for. Not only that, but Google’s standards are evolving. Keeping your website on Google’s good side can feel like a moving target.

If you’re not a web developer than making all the changes you might need could be too much for you. Even if you have a budget and a developer it still often a game of balancing priorities as to how much you decide to do.

With fixing your website you have firstly need to know what to fix. I’m not going to go into that because there are hundreds of things to consider. You’ll either need a good consultant or you can use an automated scanning tool such as this web page analyzer.

This tool will scan your site and report back you you any search engine optimisation issues on your site. I did this myself recently and fixing one error saw my site jump in the search engines. Either start working through the suggestions or take the report to your web developer.

Step 3 – Inbound links

Links into your website from other websites are an important ranking factor. The more relevancy and authority these sites have the more impact these links can have. Start a list of all the other businesses you know who could link back to you. Think about joint projects you’ve done where they might put an article on their news page. Get on podcasts and they’ll link back to you. Have you been featured in the news?

Link building is something you are in complete control of. They say the best time to plant a tree was twenty years ago. The next best time is right now – so get started.

Step 4 – Content

For a lot of people this is where it starts to fall apart. They don’t like producing content for their website. Writing isn’t why most business owners go to work in the morning. Well, you have a choice. You can play Google’s game or you can play your game. How’s that been working out for you so far?

So how much is enough? I recently asked a few people I know about this and for most small business where competition in terms of content isn’t serious ( this is probably you ) then 350 words per week could see a big change in your search engine fortunes.

This content would normally be added to a blog or news page, but the thing is once you have the content it opens the door to all kinds of things. You can post links to it on social media. You can chop it up and use it as smaller social posts. You can record it as a podcast or a video. Content is the seed for greater visibility online. We’re talking here about SEO but there’s so much value creating content.


None of this is very hard. It’s all within the capabilities of most people. But the thing is most people won’t take action on any of this. And for you thats’s great news. That means you, if you do take action, have an advantage.

Take ownership of building your business online. Don’t leave it to chance or think it’s too technical or just for the kids. That’s just weak. Take the steps I’ve outlined here and you’ll move forward. Then go and reach or watch my other content and you’ll move forward again. Always be moving.

Grab My Traffic & Conversion Prompts

All my ideas in one handy mind map.


We're all often very clear about what customers should expect from us. We're all trained and tuned to sell our services that way. But how often are we crystal clear about what we expect from a client? If you're honest, do you pander or do you genuinely serve the customers stated goals.

This week my Guest is Brandy Lawson. Defining what she does seems hard at first but when we dug into things she's done an outstanding job of specializing in filling the needs of a very particular type of business owner.

About Brandy

Brandy is a lover of ridiculous shoes, advocate for the best & highest use of technology, bringer of clarity and recovering know-it-all.

At FieryFX, her marketing & consulting agency, she makes it simple for business owners to attract the right clients and make business decisions easily, without all the trial & error by using the 4 simple machines of business.

Brandy's passion stems from the failure of her parent's first business as she experienced first-hand how critical being found and working effectively are for businesses to survive, and thrive.

Links and mentions

Brandy's Website : http://fieryfx.com/

Thanks for listening!

It means a lot to me and to the guests. If you enjoyed listening then please do take a second to rate the show on iTunes.  Every podcaster will tell you that iTunes reviews drive listeners to our shows so please let me know what you thought and make sure you subscribe using your favourite player using the links below.

Automatic Audio Transcription

We're all often very clear about what customers should expect from us. We're all trained and tuned to sell our services that way. But how often are we crystal clear about what we expect from a client? If you're honest, do you pander or do you genuinely serve the customers goals, the ones they've actually told you they want to achieve? But often they seem a little unwilling to do what's needed this week. My guest is Brandy Lawson. Defining what she does seems hard at first, but when we dig into things, she's done an outstanding job of specializing and filling the needs of a very particular type of business owner.

Hi there, and welcome back to Amplify the Digital Marketing Entrepreneur Show. I'm Bob Gentle, and every Monday I'm joined by amazing people who share what makes their business work. If you're new to the show, take a second right now to subscribe so you don't miss new episodes and you can grab some older ones when you're done with this one. Don't forget as well, you can join my Facebook group, just visit, amplify me, dot form forward, slash insiders and you'll be taken right there.

So welcome along. And let's be brandy. This week, I am thrilled to welcome Brandi Lawson to the show. Brandi runs, Fihri affects. Brandi, you're in Phoenix. And why don't you introduce who you are, where you are and the kind of work you do? Thank you, Bob. Yes, Phoenix, indeed, you and I were just discussing still a little warm here. So I'm Brandi Lawson and I help clients with leveraging what I've come to call the four simple machines of business.

But really, I love technology and not everybody loves technology. And so that is what we've set out to help clients do, is really harness many facets of the places in business where we apply force. It gets amplified in amazing ways. I like that.

I like the idea of the points where you apply force that makes so much sense because everything is effort. Oh yes. And really crystallizing it down to there are four places where you apply it to me more.

So it kind of goes to this is a a succinctness that is only recently as I did.

I've I've been doing weekly videos for about two years and talking about the various topics. And when we went to Fihri effects because I started my business is a different under a different name. I almost stopped doing websites completely.

And that's what we've been doing for four clients because nobody knows what they need out of a website. And if I can't build something that gets results, I don't want to I don't want to do anything at all.

And so I've been trying to figure out, like, are we a marketing agency? Am I a chief technology officer? Like, what do we actually help businesses with? Because it was very multifaceted and hard to describe. So we when we became very effects, we were a marketing agency because people seem to be able to wrap their heads around that and we lead with strategy. But in actuality, like once we get you in the door, there were these four places that we found are we are good at and can help businesses with.

And when we help businesses with these these four places, that they can make their impact so much more quickly on the world. And those are websites, smart business, analytics and technology. And now I can articulate it. But in the early days of business, I think many of us find that we especially if we don't kind of fit in an existing box, we kind of struggle to explain what we do.

And I think it takes some working with clients, but I think it also takes some working with other people who can reflect back to you what you're good at for us to kind of finally sift through it and be able to go, aha.

And so it actually came to me as I was listening to an audio book where the author was talking about a lover and he describes the lover. He's like, yeah, lover. You know, it it amplifies the force, you put it.

I was like, there it is. These are simple machines. This is the physics concept of a simple machine. But in business, because if we apply effort in these particular places, we magnify its force, we change the direction of what's on the other end. And so that's kind of how we finally being able to talk more succinctly about what it is we do and how we help clients.

I really like that because I was speaking to somebody the other day who said you must have a framework if you want to be able to clearly communicate what you do and stand out. Yes, the best way to do that is with a framework that's got your own flavor on it. I think there are lots of different flavors, lots of different frameworks for explaining marketing strategies.

Yes, but having your own one that really has your own flavor, but is so I to yours is, I imagine, quite powerful. How much of an impact has that had on your ability to communicate what you do?

Oh, it's been it's been epically business changing, honestly.

And I think the other piece of that is, yes, having a framework is super helpful.

Getting there is a journey for sure. And you and I talked about we're actually launching a podcast. And when it came to naming the podcast, if I would not have had my framework, that would have been a lot harder. Also, having that framework allows me to even look at how we do content, because as we do as we produce content and now as we're doing the podcast episodes, I'm taking a business topic and then we're taking that through our four simple machines of business.

So I did a video series called That's Not What Email Is For, because if you really want to get me on a soapbox topic, we'll talk about email. I have to pop in here.

I can see your face and you look angry. Yes.

Yes. So that's not what email is for. And so basically, I take the idea of email and then I take it through the four simple machines. So, like, how does how does email relate to websites? Well, that is your form. Submissions of your form submissions are just. Coming to your inbox, that's not what e-mail is for. And then smart business talking about the process you have for your to do list if it's stuck in your inbox that you're actually letting other people prioritize your day.

And then we look at it through analytics. If your reports are coming to your email, that's also not what emails for, because we know that they're not going to get looked at if they're in their email box.

And then finally, the technology talking about what powers your email so that it having that framework not just allows me to be able to answer my, you know, do my elevator pitch or help somebody understand what we do. But it actually ties into how we produce content and it's very powerful when we are making decisions. But this this is a lesson that I also knew about because we help clients with marketing strategy is like when we do that big strategic plan, which we call ignition, everything gets easier because you have essentially now a framework or a plan or we've we've talked about with the big picture is now we can make decisions more easily that even ties further back into your values.

If you haven't articulated your values as a business, decisions are harder.

I was talking to somebody the other day about they're ready to hire a salesperson. I'm like, well, great. So did you revisit your values and decide, you know, let that guide you to hiring? So having these, as you put it, frameworks framework's not just from a you know how we help people, but like our marketing plan. But also the values are sort of a framework for your business and that it just makes every decision easier.

I can really, really see as having been in a situation where I wanted to hire somebody to do a sales. You have some tough choices to make. I mean, do you want them to just go out and bring in sales no matter what? Or do you want them to go out and sort of evangelize your business and tell your story because they're not going to perform as well? Right. Are you playing a short game or a long game? These things really matter.

Yes. So, yeah, I can see exactly why you would want to integrate that also with your content. I mean, something I really liked about your four machines is that productivity is one of them, essentially. I know from working with clients that the number one challenge most business owners have around promoting their business online isn't technology. It isn't content. It's time. Yes. They just feel paralyzed by the choices they have to make and the time they have to deploy and just end up doing nothing.

Yes. Yes. The the smart business. And the reason I didn't call it like it is process. It is operations. It is productivity. But the reason I landed on smart business is because of my journey in bringing operations into our business.

So my background is actually as a product director, I manage products like physical charger products. So if you want me to bore you with, like, telling you how I think what I think about UL certification and plastic mold tolerances, like, but in that in that position, a documentation and operations were critical. So I appreciate the value of it.

When it came to my own business, like I don't think for a million dollars I would have sat down and typed out and done screenshots for a process because it's just it's so grating to me.

I knew I needed it. I couldn't do it that way.

And then I discovered the screen casting and I was like, oh, wait, what I can I can document my processes this way. I will do that. Like, again, smart business for me is understanding the value of operations and productivity and finding the way that it works for you, because I spent a lot of time trying to adopt other people's processes, beating my head against planning for a lot of the early times of my businesses. And it just it didn't fit.

And if it doesn't fit, I'm not going to do it. So smart business is about finding the operational processes and procedures and the productivity that fits for you.

So how do you engage with a client? What's that conversation look like? Because they're probably going to looking for a web designer or a marketing agency.


You know that this is also these conversations with prospective clients has also shaped a lot of the conversation we have now, but also a lot of my perspective about how how to work with experts, because just like I think there's several other places in business where everybody's been burned and they don't always think that it is because the the provider is nefarious. But so many people get into. The business being very good at their job, but not good business people or good operations people, and so there's a lot of overpromising and under-delivery and notoriously what people are disappearing.

So when we start to talk to somebody about working with them very early on, I help them understand. One, we're not for everybody like that. Affordable is not on my website. That's not what we are. What we are is thorough, results oriented and ready to make decisions in your business easier through using our four simple machines. And the other piece of this is I have very candid.

One of one of our values is Velvet Hammer and what that means.

It's actually a nickname that my my best you gave me. What that means is that we have candid conversations with love, candid conversations with grace. And so a sales call with me when we're talking with prospective clients is really kind of getting into the nitty gritty of what they're after, what they want, what their business goals are really seeing if we're the right people to help. But then the sort of the test conversation that I have with clients is I will tell them during the course of our work together, I will never ask you if you like it because your opinion doesn't belong here.

And sometimes I get sometimes I get real interesting reactions. But the truth of the matter is, marketing is not for the business. The marketing is for the prospective clients we have we will set goals. We will identify who we're talking to and then everything we do is for them. I don't care if you think the buttons should be blue, your opinion doesn't belong here. That is not going to get us results. But what we will do is measure it and see how many clicks it gets versus traffic.

And we might test it, but I'm not going to ask you if you like it. I really like that.

I've actually had to write that down. Marketing is not for you. It's for the prospective client. And every client needs to hear that. It's probably going to be the title of this podcast. Oh, I love it.

Well, it's it's one of those things that when I think when we're starting out, I can think about, you know, the the brandee of 2012 just getting started with my business, just getting started with websites, not having the confidence, not having the experience, not having the the place to come from as a seasoned expert with my clients. And the only thing I have is to ask them if they like it.

So it's sort of it's a very immature way to go about doing things. And the net result of that is that it doesn't get it doesn't move the business forward like that doesn't actually help. And another another marketing agency owner told me one time about a friend of hers who was working with this other agency, and they just kept redesigning because the client was sort of emotionally invested in the design. And so they just kept redesigning and she was like thirty thousand dollars into a non finished website.

And my my friend was just angry, like hair on fire and like, yes, I agree that's a total misuse. But everybody's invested in the wrong thing here and that's pervasive in the industry. So helping reset.

And I think this also goes into the how we work with experts because I've seen Web projects in particular go wrong in one of two ways either. The web designer says, do you like it? Do you like it? It lets the client trample all over or the client bulldozes them and like, never lets them do show up with their expertise. So we have it when we're working with experts. I think we have to it's most beneficial to set out set forth the goal, what is the result that we want and then allow both parties to work towards that in their area of expertise.

But it does take both parties coming from a place of competence.

I think it's something that I've seen very, very often and I've been guilty of in my business. I used to run quite a large Web agency. And if if you I guess if you like most web agencies, you tend to hire. Quite an people, because that's just where the talent pool tends to be. There is a fantastic career ladder for most designers are developed, right? So they tend to move out of the industry quite young, even when they're quite talented, because that the opportunities just aren't there or they have to move city.

And for that reason, a lot of high value projects go to potentially really inexperienced people. Right. And the business owners just want it taken care of. And so you end up with a website that looks pretty small, but it's not doing anything for anybody. Yes. And that's a real problem. And it's a real shame. It is.

And it's I've called it the pageant contestant versus the intern. Like, you know, we don't want a website that's a pageant contestant who's only like who looks nice parading around. We want an intern, like the hardest working, underpaid person in your company that your website should be the intern and not the pageant contestant.

That's a very, very good analogy. So I am curious to know I kind of understand what your business is and where your value is. And that makes perfect sense. And I can completely see why your business is grown and is growing. There are a couple of things for me that stand out in your business and your practice. And one of them is if I was to go out and I'm going to put you for a moment into the webdesign box, OK?

So forgive me, no amount. But I think the Web, the website is a big part of your business. A, it's quite a masculine industry. A lot of the time. Would you say that's fair to say.

I say that is fair to say. I have seen it change. So. Yeah, yeah. Since since we've we started like so we're nine years old. I've worked in the tech slash web area for more than 20.

It's definitely evolving, but it's still pretty masculine dominated.

Yeah. And I think that was really my point. My point was all those guys in the industry, they've had so many opportunities to stand out and shine and so many don't. Hmm. And you're putting effort into video content. You're speaking you're being content creator. You're you're doing all the right things, getting on podcasts, a how comfortable are you doing that? And B, how much was that impacted the success that you're having now, or are you quite early in that journey?

No, no. So I feel very, very fortunate that as a teenager, I was involved in an organization where I did a lot of public speaking, a lot of impromptu speaking.

I'm very comfortable with it.

In fact, when we started doing when I started on the podcast episodes, most of my videos are I have two bullet points and I just speak to it only when I finally got to the podcast and my scripting things because I'm trying to keep under time. I'm I'm very comfortable speaking. So I very much embraced that and found it to be a great asset.

Thinking back to my career in corporate, I really think I could have harnessed that more. But I've had opportunity as a business owner to do that.

And then it is hugely impactful because when you are podcast guest, when you create video content, when you take any opportunity to be on a stage that could be in front of your your video camera and your video camera, your phone, and then publishing that on on a social channel, any time you're on a stage, it establishes authority. So people will value that information. So I always try to make sure it is valuable information, but it is very transformative for any business.

But I think especially agency owners, where we are constantly pushing against this perception of value of, you know, not not being all the terrible mechanics, like not being the used car salesman, pushing against people's experiences and trying to for me, trying to get them to make better decisions before they even get to me.

If I can speak somewhere and give you a nugget that you go take and implement, then by the time you're ready to be a client, you're going to be a better client. So I think it's twofold. It helps establish authority, but I think it also helps seed the ground, prepare the ground for prospective clients so that they're just better clients when they get to you.

I think something I'm curious about, because this is a live issue for me and my podcast, I can ask my questions. So if the listener doesn't like it, you know where I am. The things that you could speak about. There's a universe there. Oh, how do you, Chris? Is it down to this is the thing I'm going to speak about, this is a puzzle for me. It it it's it's a real conundrum. In the early days, I spoke about things that were soap, my soap box issues.

So I think one of my first hox was get what was it? I had a very catchy title. It was he was like six ways to get more done tomorrow since cloning isn't an option yet, like it was really focused around productivity and ending the misuse of email because that's a real soap box issue for me, as we've talked about.

But then I started honing in on the issues my clients were coming to me with or the one I went and call them secondary issues. So we typically know that the symptom, the thing that's paining you is not necessarily always the issue. It's not the problem. The symptom is what finally gets you to go to the doctor so that they can then diagnose the actual problem and take care of it. And so I started looking for what the symptoms were with my my clients and trying to construct content around those things and even like break it down into very small bite sized pieces, because that's the other thing.

The other mistake I made early on and I, I finally hired a speaking coach who talked me out of it was I was in love with the how the the for lack of a better analogy, how the sausage is made like these are all the actual small little things we're going to do. We're going to go we're going with this.

And just to be honest, the client does not care. The client doesn't want an education and webdesign or or marketing. The client just wants the result.

And so it's like, oh, right. So I should just vomit all over them. All of the details that I think are so interesting.

What I really need to talk about is what pain they're in and one small step that they could start solving their pain. And so I think that's part of how I got to the framework and then that's how I'm trying to use the framework for speaking now. So one of my recent talks is called Tiny Techniques. So I lure them in with solving the problem of small things.

There are seriously tiny programs on my computer that I have no idea how I functioned without, so I lure them in with that. But before I give that to them, I give them a framework for making decisions about technology and their business because this is constantly places people get hung up on.

So to longly around. Answer your question, Bob, is that I've now started looking at the symptoms of that people are trying to fix. I speak to the symptom. I give them the ibuprofen or cough syrup or whatever, and then I reveal to them some of what might be behind that symptom. So that's how I'm starting to now construct my toxin, choose my topics.

I think that's really interesting because I was at a conference with Chris Tucker's conference in the UK and there was a guy, Dale or something from Australia sorry, Dale. And he gave a talk that was quite similar. It was five ups that will change your life. It was all about I'd never heard of before. And it was ridiculously memorable. I mean, there were some stellar speaker list, outstanding speaker list, but his was one of the most memorable practical talks was really, really useful.

So I can totally see why you would go there. So I'm curious to know, for a lot of agencies, the answer to this question is anyone with money?

Oh, God, what is a good client fit look like for you?

So a good client fit for us is somebody aligned with our values? I, I have them on a on our homepage for a reason and also a good client fit for us is somebody who is willing to be coached. And I struggled a long time with that word coach, but I've realised that we like working with clients who are ready to step into the next place. So for some clients, that's a pivot. For some clients, that's launching a new business line.

For some clients, it's remodeling the Dr Seuss house that they've built so that they can actually host a party and the staircases in the middle of the living room.

But I could give them the all of the best assets. But if they are not prepared to use them, they're worthless. So part of providing the service at this point is helping the client change and be prepared to use them. And it's not necessarily something we talk about at the front end, but it is. Something I've discovered that we must do as a service provider to make sure we all get the results we want at the end, so for us, a good client is someone who's ready and willing to be coached and.

And aligned with our values, because I find when when they can check those two boxes, we love our clients, like I routinely will sign off on them with like love you and mean it, because that's that's the kind of relationship I want to have as a service provider to a business.

So something Gary Vaynerchuk said was that every business should be 80 percent, whatever they do for money and 20 percent media company. I think for a lot of a lot of business owners, they try and delegate or contract out that 20 percent. But it sounds to me like what you're saying is for those companies that want to embrace that 20 percent and take ownership of it, you want to help them make that happen. Would that be fair to say that?

That would be fair to say yes. Yeah. Now, that's that's really interesting. That is very much aligned with my philosophy. I think I used to try and fool myself into thinking, oh, we can do everything. We just take care of it. It doesn't work. It's never worked. It never, ever worked. Now, having that claim just wants to be a partner rather than the supplier client.

Oh, yes. I think that's so critical. And then I yesterday was having the then the Neshin conversation with yet another agency. And for us, like, I will only really talk to clients and our nation, our needs is. Service businesses, which is a large niche, obviously, but being able to define the clients that they serve, is not only useful for marketing but the operations side, because, again, there's this I think there's this lifecycle of agency.

And then and and part of up the hill is getting leads or getting sales. But then there's this real treacherous terrain of now you've sold all these things and you need to fulfill them. And if they are all over the map, fulfilling them is just at that point not smart business. It's it's really, really painful. So Neshin is one of the most terrifying things I think, to do as a business. But it and this business owner I was talking to you, she's like, there needs to be a support group.

I'm like, there's totally support groups from people who are working through this meeting thing.

But is the the best thing you can do, especially if you are in a growth phase so that you can focus on that.

Now, you may have multiple niches later or you may at some point consciously choose to take something outside your niche. But the we take anybody who says yes.

Really, I think is so painful on the operational side of a business that as soon as you can kind of clean that up, things become much life becomes much better.

I think you've kind of answered what was going to be my next question, because I was going to say, how can you how would you plug in this philosophy in this structure to a business, for example, like a very large electrical contracting company. So a company that just did electrical installations, they had 50 employees. The business owner wasn't really willing to show up in your marketing. Could you work with them? I guess?

And the answer is no, no, no. If the business owner isn't well, it depends.

If we needed the business owner to show up in the marketing, that's one thing. If they have another spokesperson, that's another thing.

And I, I want to have business owners that are willing to do a willing to enter into the trust relationship with me, and they're willing to do what I tell them to do. This is the back to the expert. It's also my question about I'll never ask you if you like it is is a good vetting question. Because it people who are willing to be coached will kind of like sit back in their chair for a moment and think about it.

And they go, oh, I see what you're saying, and then we'll probably have a conversation, people who are not a good fit for us get real breathily real fast.

So my next question is about catchment area, because a lot of people in our industry are, although they're theoretically digital, they actually tend to operate within a very narrow geographical catchment area. And most of the time people can trace their work to it's either coming through the results of inbound marketing or it's coming through ads or it's coming through referrals or it's coming through outbound sales. Mm hmm. So what does that whole mix look like for you? How does how does opportunity tend to find its way to way to you?

And geographically, what does that look like?

So geographically, we're kind of all over the map a bit.

And I did have a concentration of clients in Phoenix because of referrals. So I'd say our mix is probably.

Mm, 40 percent referrals if I include. If I include, like networking and referrals, because typically I'm involved in organizations that then lend themselves to me having more business, but I would call that a referral. So 40 percent referrals, 30 percent appearances, appearances, that counts.

And then I would call that I would call that content call content.

OK, well, so would you classify speaking under content?

Let's not worry about the fine.

OK, so we'll call we'll get 30 percent content and then 30 percent outreach because I do try to still identify clients we want to work with. So I part of what we love to do is help other people making change in the world. So if I see somebody who is making impact and we could help amplify that impact, then I want to reach out and make sure that they know we exist. Because that's the other thing I hear time and time again from from clients.

It's like they say, I didn't know someone like you existed.

Like, I'm working to change that. So, yeah, that's sort of our mix.

And I'm interested. You said if I were to put a percentage against the Phoenix and Greater Phoenix, Arizona. So what percentage is Arizona based?

And I think we're 50 50. I think we're 50 percent. Arizona base 50 percent. Not global, I had some international clients for a while, but definitely all over the US, so yeah, 50 50 percent, Phoenix, 50 percent the rest of the U.S., you see from everything you've described at the beginning of our talk, I kind of knew that I was going to be the answer.

But I think it's an important thing for people to hear because most people in our space don't do that. And it's important to understand what's possible if you actually reach out a little further, if you do the content marketing, if you do push yourself outside of your comfort zone, if it is uncomfortable to do speaking or podcast interviews. Yes, because those little steps they aggregate up on the aggregate up to put you in front of opportunities that your local competitors just aren't going to see.

A fantastic case study of that thing. So what are your goals for the podcast? What are you where are you with that?

So the first eight episodes, so the trailer in the first eight episodes are edited and ready to go up on Laibson and start and be cued up or getting the rest of the promotional.

So the the art and the social post and the rest of that, we're kind of gathering together. So we're on the cusp and I think ready to make our second week of November debut.

And my goal with the podcast was to. Why not have some discipline for me to create content that could be impactful for four businesses? So with my videos I've been doing those for I think it's been two years where I do weekly videos, go out on the website and social, and I've been just bouncing from topic to topic, basically just bringing up a bunch of topics and then do it. And now that I have a framework, I'm like, oh, OK, we can use this.

And then I'm trying to make it so that a listener can. The episodes tend to be about five to six minutes. A listener can in that time.

Get a concept, understand why.

So we also have a framework inside of the podcast where I talk about the problem, the purpose, the more there's another P and then the payoff, the problem, the purpose, the basically how you go about solving it and then the payoff. So and I think that's a useful framework because as human beings, you know what, we're messy. We don't always do the things we know is the right thing to do. So with that framework.

We walk through. It in and so your mind can grasp on to oh, yes, that is a problem I have. Oh, this is this is actually the purpose of the thing. This is the process of that is the process of changing it and then, oh, the payoff.

Because if we don't talk about what it looks like on the other side, we're less motivated to go make the change. So inside of each podcast, that's the structure. And then I'm hoping that in that week, the business owner will go take action and make this small change so that they can. So the podcast is basically a organized way to go, help impact more businesses and make them better clients for who ends up helping them with their marketing.

I really like that format because I think I often look at any book I read or podcast. I listen to a video I watch. If I get one idea that's actionable, then it's been worth it, right? You're just focusing on the one actionable idea. That's really clever.

Oh, thank you. And I got to give Tara Newman the shout out for the the purpose process. Payoff is her framework. And then I added the problem to the beginning of it, because each each time we're talking about know pain point in business, I love it.

And other or any of your team getting involved with the podcast or they think in front of you, keep that to yourself.

So far, I'm the only one in front of the microphone, but I really do want to have my project manager slash integrator come on and talk about a few things, because this is also something else. A few conversations I've had recently with agency owners as they struggle to delegate or improve the smart business aspect of their businesses. It's it really, you know, when you're in the middle of it, it seems so impossible. And so I think having again, going through that framework of here's here's the problem, here's the purpose.

Here's the process. And the payoff in little bite sizes can really help get through it.

Just, you know, some of the mental barriers, I think, back to the early days of my agency and what that looks like and that the barriers were all me and how I was doing things and the things I was quote unquote unwilling to do.

But when I became willing to do them through finding a way that worked for me, it was magic.

It's just magic. So, you know, helping climb those little internal mental mountains.

I love it. I think one of the things that's really stuck with me over recent interviews was Jamie Cross, who's also from somewhere around where you are. She's in Texas, not too far away. Yeah. She said your business will only grow when you grow. And I thought that explains so much.


So coming from a partial software background, how I started thinking about that was OK, Brandee version, twenty twenty ten is going to be not as good as Brandee version. Twenty twenty nine eleven. Like I need to keep versioning myself because this version of myself isn't yet capable of achieving the goals that I have, but I can keep becoming the person who is capable of those goals. And for me, another powerful shift was letting go of achieving the goal itself and being more invested in becoming the version of myself that could achieve that goal.

I love it probably less than you have been a fantastic guest. If people want to connect with you, how would you like them to do that?

You can connect with us at Fihri Effects Dotcom or any of the social channels at the same handle.

We would love to connect and I must remember to ask this question. I don't think I've forgotten for a long time now. And that's what's one thing you do now that you wish you'd started five years ago, a debriefing and planning.

When I came out of corporate, I had the biggest planning hangover because in corporate once a year we do this big brouhaha. We do this big five year plan, which was hilarious. And then we the next after the planning, we just all go back to work and forget about planning. So it felt so useless.

And then I guess a couple of years I about four years ago, I found the 90 day year and I was like oh oh five.

I don't have to plan for five years. I could do 90 days. Well, that's that seems doable.

So I, I started there and I found different ways to to do the planning and it was still, you know, a little hit or miss. But I was I was I was doing it. And then a couple of years ago I found Tara Newman's debriefing CEO de-brief started doing the. And it's again, humans, we're messy, it's so powerful for my brain to I now do it every day, once a day, go what worked today? Like what's working?

Because when I allow myself the time to reflect back to what works, I keep doing what's working because I don't know about you, but I will find something that works and like this is great. And then suddenly a couple of weeks later, I will figure out I'm not doing it anymore. I'm like, when did I stop doing that? Why did I stop?

But with this process of a quick it takes five minutes to go through like what's working, what's working, what's not working, what would I do differently to just answer those questions every day and then make myself a plan for the next day? Is life and business changing? It's so powerful. And the five year ago, Brandy would have been like you crazy.

There's no way I'm doing daily debriefing, debriefing and planning, but I really wish I would have started it five years ago. That's a fantastic answer, Brandy. I've had the best times. Been great fun. It's been lovely to meet you. And yeah. Thank you very much for your time.

I've had so much fun talking with you, Bob. Thanks so much for having me. There was so much value in this episode to this specific person Brandy serves, she brings a standout framework and a very particular set of goals and expectations. She's very focused on who she serves, where they hang out and what they need to accomplish and has built a framework she can communicate and a service set to deliver it. Predictably, she's nailed down systems and she's confidently expanding, while others are scratching their heads and wondering how.

Before I go, just a quick reminder to subscribe. And if you haven't already to join my Facebook group, you'll find a link in the show, notes or just visit, amplify me from forward, slash insiders or just search amplify inciters on Facebook. I would love you to connect with me on social media. Follow me wherever you hang out. You'll find me at Bob Gentle. And if you do message me, let me know so I can follow you back.

If you enjoyed the show, then I would love for you to review on iTunes. It means a lot to me and it's the very best way to help me reach more subscribers. My name's Bob Gentil. Thanks again to Brandy for giving us her time this week and to you for listening and see you next week.

Likes, shares, follows, comments, retweets, trending. If chasing these down is getting your down then stick around. I want to share why so many people are focusing on the wrong things online – and what you should focus on instead.

Let’s get one thing straight. Facebook, Google, Instagram, Linkedin – They’re not our friends. To them, we’re not even customers. We’re users.

There’s a saying which goes – ‘if you’re not paying, you are the product’.

When these platforms start telling us to focus on engagement what do they really mean? They mean they want us to spend as much time as possible on the platform, consuming content and importantly, ads. Advertisers are the actual customers.

Grab My Traffic & Conversion Prompts

All my ideas in one handy mind map.

Now I know that posts which get engagement are rewarded with more reach and visibility by the platforms. I’m not stupid. But most people respond to this by producing posts which might get engagement but they’re not achieving much else.

What I see a lot of is..

  • Here’s me with a fancy car
  • What do you like best- cheese or beer?
  • Some polarising political nonsense
  • Leading questions

I’m not judging people who shit-post just to drive engagement. But I have to ask myself – what are they actually achieving by it. Ask yourself this… ‘Why are you on social media? ‘ You can’t eat fake popularity, you can’t spend engagement, so why are you posting on social media?

Social media is about connection. If you have one goal in all your content is should be to connect with someone as deeply as you can. The truth is that there is no correlation between engagement as a social media KPI and ROI – none. There is a profound correlation between connection, trust and influence.

Express yourself and your value through your content. Know you’re value and be clear on who you bring that value to. Express your values, your mission, your goals, who you serve, the problems you can help people transform into opportunties, your passion, curiosity and your enthusiasm.

Post less often if you need to, but aim for education, inspiration and entertainment. Let engagement come as a by product – but don’t make that your main aim.

Don’t be a consumer, be a creator – don’t play by the algorithm’s rules – play by your rules.

Every single bit of content you put on social media reaches hundreds of people – don’t be greedy – Know who you’re or and be there for that one person.

Grab My Traffic & Conversion Prompts

All my ideas in one handy mind map.

Have you ever lost a sale and thought to yourself – why didn’t they choose us? We’re so obviously the best choice – why didn’t they know this – if only they understood?

Or perhaps you fail to break through on social media and nobody pays you any attention at all. Perhaps your business finds it hard to stand out in a competitive field in any meaningful way. If this sounds like you then stick around.

Let me ask you this. Is your business the same as your competitors? Do you do the same things in the same way as all the others. Are your values, motivation, ethos and mission the same. Is it true that you bring nothing different to the table?

If you’re like most business owners you’ll probably scream back a big fat NO.

But how would I know this. How, unless I’m your mother, would I discover this X Factor you and your team can see – but which is largely invisible to the rest of the world?

What even is that X Factor?

You might tell me it’s your story, your motivations, your systems, your values, pricing, customer service or a whole bunch of other things. Through all these things what you’re doing is expressing the same thing to me in different ways.

It’s your value.

Every business is essentially the same. It’s a value exchange. I have something of value. I look for the person who wants that the most and we trade.

If you want to succeed in business then you need to refine and perfect that value and then show it as clearly as possible to your ideal customer.

There are two traditional tools businesses are taught to use. The long winded and frankly boring Value Proposition and on the other hand the snappy Elevator Pitch. Neither of these are particularly useful at helping us with anything other than having more documents to store.

So let me introduce you to the very useful and easy to create – Value Positioning Statement.

Grab My VPS Worksheet

Everything you need to craft your value positioning statement

At first this might seem so simple it’s silly. But I promise that if you follow through with this you’ll have a powerful tool. Pretty much every time I work through this with clients it gets exciting and emotional.

The value positioning statement has three parts. The trick is to be a specific as possible.

1 – I help… ( ideal customer )

2 – To … ( do a specific thing )

3 – So that they can … ( enjoy a specific benefit )

Now at this point you might be laughing into your soup. Imagine for a second that you didn’t have to fight for all that second rate work. That you were, in fact, always chosen first. If this were true then what client would you always choose? That’s who you put in part one.

If you could only work on your favorite most profitable work, or the work you love doing the most, what would it be. This is what goes in part two.

And when people hire you it’s because they’re looking for some kind of transformation. They want to move from where they are to where they want to be. What is the result or benefit. This is what you put in part three.

Watch the video above for some examples.

From these examples you’ll find that we’ve connected much more deeply and in something really simple and snappy. Now when someone says – ‘so what do you do’ – you’ll have that wow answer.

The VPS is simple and because it’s simple it’s practical and like any practical and simple tool – it gets used!

When you start using it in social profile descriptions, email signatures, website headers, business cards and anywhere else you regularly show up it starts to have an impact. But more important that this is that it acts as a compass for your content marketing. Your VPS acts as a little Value Power Station fueling a beacon to attract your ideal client online.

Have a go at creating your own VPS. You’ll find the temptation at first is to make it quite ling but keep stripping it back and distilling it down until it’s simple and powerful. Once you have it, use it everywhere. Let it be the power station which fuels and directs all your content marketing and provides you with a much stronger sense of identity.

Grab My VPS Worksheet

Everything you need to craft your value positioning statement


For many people just becoming visible online is a challenge. But once you've got that nailed down how do you turn that into a business? How do you navigate the complex world of funnels, lead magnets, ads and webinars.

This week my guest is the funnel queen Teresa Heath Waring and she's going to walk me through all of this and some simple tips anyone can use to start on the lead generation journey.

About Teresa

Award winning International speaker, TEDx speaker, trainer, podcaster and business owner, Teresa works with businesses, entrepreneurs and marketers to help them enhance their digital marketing & social media efforts.

She is recognised alongside some of the world’s social media & digital marketing thought leaders and is widely regarded as one of the UK's leading marketing influencers. 

Teresa has spent the last 16 years in Marketing working with international brands such as Land Rover, Jaguar, Rightmove and Leadpages. 

She speaks and trains entrepreneurs all over the world. As well as in her online membership - The Marketing that Converts Academy.  

Teresa hosts a popular weekly podcast called ‘Marketing that Converts’ and has interviewed the likes of Amy Porterfield, Pat Flynn, Michael Hyatt, Jasmine Star, James Wedmore, Mike Stelzner and Dean Graziosi.

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For many people, just becoming visible online is a challenge, but once you've got that nailed down, how do you turn that into a business? How do you navigate the complex world of funnels, lead magnets, ads and webinars? This week, my guest is the funnel queen Theresa Heath wearing. And she's going to walk me through all of this and some simple tips anyone can use to start on the lead generation journey. Hi there. And welcome back to Amplify the Digital Marketing Entrepreneur podcast.

I'm Bob Gentle. And every Monday I'm joined by amazing people who share what makes their business work. So if you're new to the show, then take a second right now to subscribe. That way you won't miss new episodes and you can grab some older ones when you're done with this one. Don't forget as well, you can join my Facebook community. Just visit up by me dot EFM forward slash insiders and you'll be taken right there. So welcome along.

And let's meet Theresa. So this week, I am thrilled to welcome Teresa Heath wearing to show Theresa has been on my list for over a year. So I'm really excited to finally get to spend some time with you, Theresa.

Oh, I'm really looking forward to it. Thank you so much for having me.

So for anyone who doesn't know who you are, why don't you start just by introducing a little bit about who you are, where you are and the kind of work you normally do?

Sure thing. So I am a social media and digital marketing consultant, trainer and international speaker.

I am based in the fairly rural ish part of England in Shropshire, and basically I help entrepreneurs and business owners all over the world better market themselves and market and grow their online products through teaching them in my academy and through my 90 day program.

Now, when I first came across you, it was Andrew and Pete's atomic bomb, not this last one, just gone to the virtual one, but the real one last March.

Yeah, long time ago. It feels like a long time ago now, doesn't it? Yeah. And I remember being blown away by your presentation on finals and final strategy and basically how to move people from audience to having bought something from you. So I was really keen to explore that a little bit and ask some of my what we would call up where I am. Daft Luddy questions.

That is absolutely fine. I love this type of questions. That's good.

Now, when you say obviously you have your own podcast, which is doing pretty well, what's quite interesting with you is a lot of people that I have on the show that work in the marketing field, they are often what you might call the consultant type. And consultants tend to do things in quite a linear way, the way everybody's always done things. So they go to networking events, they bring their work through referral or they went through Pedders, things like that.

But consultants tend to work within a catchment area a lot of the time. It's not always the case. There are lots of sort of Internet types that also come the podcast. But you're quite an interesting contrast in that you've done the traditional marketing piece but moved into this online space very effectively, very quickly. And you've done it with a degree of expertise, which is quite unusual. So I'm keen to also understand not just what you do, but how you learned it, because it's complicated and nerdy stuff.

So first off, thank you for saying that. I do not I don't think about that transition very often. I remember it being a wee bit scary in terms of going from having an agency as such and consulting to then moving over to virtually being entirely online and only having online products. But for me, I think what I find this kind of came about was I did a degree literally 16, 17 years ago now in marketing. So I have a B.A. honours in marketing.

So first off, I think that's fairly interesting for and it sounds daft, but sometimes in the digital marketing space, you don't find people have always come from marketing, which seems odd, but that is the case. And so when I done marketing for everyone, I work for loads different businesses, but I'd always been employed like I'd never, ever had the vision or the even kind of the what's the word for it like impulsion, no compulsion to start my own business.

I always wanted to work for someone else. I was a very good employee. I liked being employed and I was really risk averse. So I did loads of different things, which gave me a huge plethora of sort of experience and knowledge. So I had ran the head of corporate marketing for Landrover, doing very traditional things, doing events so big, massive brand like that, right the way down to a teeny tiny company where I had to do everything, including coming up with like fax campaigns or creating little brochures by myself, probably in paint or publisher or something dreadful like that.

So I had kind of done a huge amount of stuff. And then I worked for an agency and although I loved working for the agency, I just got to the point where a few things in my life had changed. I'd end up being a single parent and I just got to the point where I thought, you know what? I just really need to be happy and do stuff myself now. So I decided that I needed a new job, handed in my notice and decided what sounds like very arrogantly.

But I can assure you that is not me and I'm sure I'll get another job. I'm really good at marketing. I was. I am, you know, I eat, sleep, breathe this stuff. So put my notes in.

Gave. Eight weeks notice and I got about three weeks and nothing was forthcoming, and basically with my back up against the wall, I had got, you know, a mortgage to pay a child that I had to feed and look after. And I had I had no option of a job. So I thought, what if I start my own business? I must have had an early mid-life crisis or something. Because, you know, this is crazy talk when you literally have no husband to support you and no rich parents and no savings either.

So I went into this in the worst possible way you could have done. But I started off doing the consultancy, doing the kind of more agency done for you staff. But then what happened was the digital side was getting more and more prevalent. And these were the days of like Mari Smith and Kim Ghast. I remember they were like the first things I did. And I started to do online webinars, which back then, like six years ago, which doesn't sound very long ago.

But in our world, it feels like it was a long time ago. I was doing these webinars and I was doing these these training online. And I remember being at home and Murray-Smith Smith called out my name and I was like, oh my God, it's just my name. And I thought, this is absolutely amazing. So I started to learn and then I started to watch some of these people and they had done the transition of they went from working for someone to working for themselves, thinking, I'm going to get all this time.

I no longer report to anybody. I'm my own boss. And then realizing that as a agency or consultant, I didn't have one boss. I had about 17 of them. And they all thought, oh, great, we're going to, you know, use Teresa's time and I can contact at any point and she'll come in and see me. And and it was getting really, really difficult. So for me, I started looking at those online people thinking, this is amazing.

Like, how do you do this? How how could I do this? And I literally went and learnt from the best. I signed up to lots of courses but did lots of courses. I put myself in the space of other people who are phenomenal at this stuff. So the James Wetmore of this world and their report Skills of this World. And I went and learnt from them and and with my marketing knowledge of one of my greatest skills is I can, you know, feel like I can put myself in any customers position and be able to then use the language that they need and the inspiration they need to make the purchase.

So for me, with my marketing knowledge, my marketing experience and all those good years, then add on the digital stuff that everyone else was learning. And it just hopefully kind of came to a really good combination having both of those things. And then I just worked really hard on my personal brand, tried to show up everywhere, tried to do all the talks and I love it. And one thing that I get told all the time is that my passion comes through.

So for me, if I didn't get paid for this stuff, if I didn't have to get paid, if, you know, I won the lottery tomorrow, I'd still do it because I literally love this stuff.

And what sort of time period was there between you deciding, OK, online looks awesome and actually being there where my business is online. So I reckon you're talking at least 18 months, two years.

And the reason for that, I just want to explain briefly, is the fact that I sat on it for too long. I knew all the stuff right. So I knew what to do. I had been doing it. So once I kind of started to transition well, once I not transition into the online world. But once I was learning more and more about the online world, my consultancy and marketing started to change. So instead of consulting a business that was maybe a high street business, I was then consulting personal brands on how they could launch their online products.

So I was already doing it. I done it for other people for at least a year or two before I started because I kind of started as soon as I started learning, I started taking on clients for it. So I'd done it. I'd got the experience. I knew what to do. I'd test that stuff out. But you know what? When it came to me putting myself out there and saying to the world, hey, look, this is me, this is who I am, I've just put together this course or I've just done this thing, I was terrified.

I was literally terrified because what if no one bought it? What if I actually didn't know anything? What if the person who teaches or the people hate to do this couldn't do it for herself and like, it literally held me back. So if I hadn't have been so nervous, I probably could have done it within six to 12 months. But the other thing I want to mention about this is I went from having a very successful business with a team of like six, seven people getting an income from only agency.

And I literally had to, like, almost suck off or not replace or change. Or give them to my staff and say, right, you can now have these people because I don't want to do this anymore and I can't have that responsibility of them, I have to make all these changes where I was actively getting rid of money coming into my business so that I could free myself up. And that was terrifying as well, because it was like I had a really successful business and I literally just halted that overnight because I knew that if I hadn't given myself enough time that I wouldn't.

You've got to have the time and trying to do the both trying to still run the agency and do all that sort of thing as well as then do all the interviews and start a podcast and speak on stage and be events. And especially because like last year, I did 26 flights. So I was out of the country so much and I couldn't have run an agency and I couldn't have run, even though it was still all online. I couldn't have done it if I, you know, while still trying to manage all that at the same time.

So that was a scary point. And it was almost like I was brand new again. It was almost like I'm starting a brand new business and taking that brand new risk again. And it was it was pretty pretty, Harian, in the early days because, you know, I got used to what we in we we live, you know, as everybody does to their means. And and we had to make some adjustments and I had to make some adjustments.

And but the other thing I didn't want to do is get rid of the team. So some of them reduced with what they did. Some of them do something slightly different. But it was pretty scary to to make that transition because this view of selling a digital product like a course or a membership and it's a get rich quick is absolutely not the case at all. No, it's a lot of work, huge amount. And you just can't do that while trying to do something else.

So I knew if I wanted to give a really good go and it was a hard conversation. You know, my husband and I had to sit down and go, right, what does this mean if I do this and taking that step and going. You know what? That client's gone. I'm doing no effort to replace them and actively. Now, actually, what is quite nice is when people come to me, I can go, no, we don't do that anymore, but I can pass you on to someone else.

So, you know, evidently they go to the team, you know, because there are a lot of them are freelance and but it's actually, you know, don't get me wrong, I'm very grateful for the clients that I work with. And I learn lots. And and it was wonderful working with them.

But it is kind of nice now that I get to go now. And we still have a couple of clients. Actually, I have a couple of people that still work with us that the team manage for me. So I don't manage them. But, you know, they're wonderful and I love them to bits and that's great. But most of them, you know, one way or another, we we got to the point of going, yep, we can't do this.

So, yeah, it was an interesting transition.

I think there's a lot of parallels to my own story as well. I mean, I went through a similar experience of sort of divesting myself of 90 percent of my business because it just wasn't ringing my bell at all. I just found it. And I don't know if you felt this as well, that I was on a hamster wheel of sales just to keep a lot of people going who didn't really seem to be into what I was doing anyway.

Yeah, and I just think it's I just didn't want to be accountable anymore. I was on stage is talking and I loved it and I didn't want to. I remember being at an event where I was speaking and I was getting ready to be on stage within the next hour or two. And it's you know, it was a big audience and I was nervous cause I always get nervous, although I love it and I've got a client messaging me like, oh, mechanical problem with this.

And the other thing is that's really interesting. It's like I used to work in an industry, so I was one of my jobs when I was employed was in the car industry and I got into it through the marketing department. And then I got promoted to director and ended up being director of service. Now, I didn't do very long couple of years because I thought this is not what I should be doing because this is not my bag. But we had children in care, that horrendous things was happening to them.

You know, terrible situations would happen, you know, come the weekend. They didn't go into a cupboard and come out Monday. And when I started back, like in traditional marketing. So I left that job after a couple of years and I went back to an agency, although I still had an element of it like that. I had way too much responsibility when when it came to the children and when I went back to the agency, the relief of, you know what, no one is going to die if we send out a tweet with a spelling mistake and sometimes the clients don't see it that way.

I just totally do like, you know, yeah, we made a mistake and, you know, we're human and we don't make money, but I refuse to wouldn't having dealt with an industry like that where literally, you know, terrible things are happening to the children, you literally have to put it in perspective. This is marketing and it was that urgency and that kind of like we need this day now that I was just like, yeah, that isn't good for me, I'm afraid.

You know, in the nicest sense, the word, I want to be really helpful and create a good product for you, but it's not going to work until you also feel at the time, OK, there's all this freedom.

I don't want to be accountability. I can choose my own path. I don't really have to worry about these. Seemingly if there's any clients listening, I don't mean it this way. No, not trivial concerns of clients when you're trying to build something amazing. So you've got that going on in one hand. But on the other hand, you used to have a big business. You used to be important and your ego is suffering because what are all these people who used to be your competitors thinking of what's happened to her?

She must have. She must have been in trouble. Yeah.

You know what? That is really funny. So in Shropshire where I live, obviously I had competition because I was an agency and we'd go and get the small stuff and, you know, we'd go and get clients together. I did do the networking thing I did, you know, with lots of local clients, amazing people. And I people really did like me when I started to do more speaking and started to step up a bit more. And this was before I moved over to the side completely.

But, you know, it is funny because I obviously I'm still in Shropshire. And what happens is whenever I do something in Shropshire, I get people say mean things, right. Which, you know, how everyone's terrified to show themselves online because of trolls and people saying horrible stuff. I can tell you pretty much hand on heart. I don't think I can think of one example that wasn't someone who lived within probably a 20 mile radius of my house.

Like, it's not it's not the rest of the world that were like intimidated or angry or hated me. It was the people who literally were just down the road and knew me from when I was there, which always made me laugh because it's like I'm no competitor to you now. I don't offer what you offer. I don't want to do what you do. I'm not trying to build a big agency with, you know, lots of graphic designers and websites I might have done at some point, but not now.

I do something entirely different. But yeah, it didn't. It is funny because sometimes I do like it to be like, look, I have got a really good business here and I'm really well respected. And I get this and I get that. And then you just have to park your ego and go, you know what? It is, what it is. And I've had a couple of local at a local magazine that's got a fairly big readership in Shropshire do a piece on me.

And again, I was terrified when I and I just thought, someone's going to say something, someone's going to put something up. And I just didn't pay any attention. And like I said, it's not it's not the rest of the world to go where it's like literally people on your doorstep. But but yeah, I think I just had to focus and I'm a big fan of saying stay in your own lane, like, put my head down, get on and do my thing.

And and the other thing that you sort of alluded to when you asked this question was one of the things I did, because, like you said, I went from being successful. I went from being, you know, working with big people and doing big accounts and, you know, and then literally gave it all up. And if and I did worry that if anybody ever went into check my limited company stuff, they'd be like, what happened?

Because literally disappeared. But then what I did instead is instead of looking at the money and looking at what big job I'd want, I looked at like some person that I've never met and never heard of contacting me, telling me they listen to my podcast now. Amazing it was. Or someone sharing an Instagram story about me speaking and how brilliant they thought it was. And I literally took every single teeny tiny when I could take. So although it felt in the early days and still to an extent now where, you know, you wish you had the millions of followers and you wish you had, you know, the thousands of people in your memberships and your programs and your courses and you watch someone else doing a massive thing and you think I'm not there yet.

But I think the mistake that people make with the online world in particular is that they don't love the people that they've got. So for me, when I first opened the membership, I shut the doors at like 30 people and I loved those 30 people, like, literally couldn't love on them anymore. Every time someone sends you a message or reply to my email or DM's me, it might take me a bit of time to get back to you.

But I always do, you know, because I need to appreciate and love every single person that that does the same to me. So those were what I focused on rather than a game of not bringing in loads of money this month or I've not got this big contract or sat in this fancy office with these people. And yeah, so I focused on something different.

So what I would like to look at now is funnels and I will make a confession. I don't have a funnel.

So what the hell, Bob? I say that rather closely, of course, but things like webinars, Facebook ads, lead magnets, email lists, if you take the average small business owner through to an aspiring marketer, so to speak, this is often where things get a bit choppy because it's quite straightforward.

I say quite straightforward is personally challenging for a lot of people, but it's fairly easy to sort of build a personal brand to do the social media, the content marketing, to build an audience to an extent, but to build a system that connects that audience to a value exchange that's really challenging. And when I watched your to ComicCon sort of map out these followers, I thought that's just witchcraft. So if you were to take somebody, that's OK. They've they've built a bit of a social media audience.

They they have a productize course or a membership.

How would you take them from that point to being able to close that gap for the value exchange?

So I think the first thing I want to say is that sometimes people think of funnels and webinars and they think, oh, my goodness, like, this is huge. And you know what? When you look at some people's stuff and you look at mine today, yeah, there's a lot of stuff that goes into it and there's a lot of moving parts and a lot of you know, when we talk about lead magnets, I have like six or seven on the go at any one time.

But you know what? I've been doing this ages. So I think in the first instance, the first thing to think about is simple or as simple as you can do it. So when we talk systems, which is normally the things people want to know, they want to know what systems I use, how do I do that? Because they get the overall understanding of it. But it's like actually in practice, how do I do that?

So for me, you need to get people off the social media. And when I say off, I don't mean you're no longer dealing with them on social media. They're still going to follow on Instagram. Is there going to post on Facebook? But you need to get them onto your own list because that's super, super important, because if something was to happen tomorrow and I give some great and terrible examples in the sense of I've had people come to me who literally built their entire business using Instagram and someone hacked their account and wiped the entire thing like they had something like 70 something thousand followers.

It was so devastating and there was nothing they could do about it. So that's why I happen all the time about building that email list.

So in a very basic way, all you've got to do is have something that you can give someone that they want that fixes their problem, that helps them and is in line with what you're selling and then you need to offer it them on social media. You need to maybe put an advert or put it on your social media or put it on your website or put it on your cover photo of your Facebook account, put it in your group and just basically tell the world and not just once, many, many times.

So I get this all the time. Just as a side note, they'll come to me and go, that isn't working. OK, how many people have adopted into it? Five. Ivan, how many times have you put it out? I put it on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook as like. So basically you put it out twice and you've had five people opt into it. You're telling me it's not working, like trying to put in a fifty times and have no one opt in and then suddenly it's not working.

I am literally climbing into my box of shame right now. Oh, I'm so sorry. This is I promise this is a safe space. You could do this. And this is the thing. And I think this is the honesty that I try and bring across, because sometimes I think all this is made out to be way too easy. And it isn't like so building that MLS, getting these people on, finding the thing that they want, because that's the other thing.

You could go to all this effort, create this lead magnet. And actually that's not the big pain point that they need help with. So so that's the first step you need.

You need them to to want something that you can help them with. So firstly, like preamps way before this is you need to know your customers really well, which is a marketing basic that I harp on about all the time. But so once you've kind of got this thing in, you're getting them on your list. Basically, you need a landing page. And I always suggest the landing page or a pop up box, something that you can do, an active campaign or convert kit.

You can even do it in MailChimp, although it's not amazing for it, in my opinion.

So you just need something like that. And then what happens is when they opt in a funnel is they go to a thank you page. And can you do something on that thank you page.

So normally I'd encourage you to get them to follow you on a social media platform or if you go to. My staff, my thank you page normally says, go check your emails, go listen to my podcast, it gives you three steps and the third one is go check out the academy. It's really good. If I'm running up to doing a webinar, then every thank you page I have will be sort of diverted to a thank you page. It says, hey, hang on, you've just signed up for this.

I'm doing a webinar soon. Do you want to sign up for that? So use that thank you page. But then what happens is you send emails out so your system and the ones I've mentioned can all do this. They basically say when they do this thing, when they fill in that box, send them to this thank you page and send them these emails. And you ideally want two, three, four emails that we talk about on boarding emails that explain to them kind of, you know, here's the thing you've asked for.

Obviously, that's the very first thing you need to do is deliver the thing they've asked for and then show them that, you know, what situation they're in. You know how, you know, they struggle with X, Y, Z, or you've been there, too. And that's why you went and did this thing or why you've put together this academy or whatever it is. And that's where you do the warming up and introducing. And I actually on email for I actually say, if you want the good stuff, it's in the academy now.

Do I expect that to convert highly? No, not at all. But I am introducing it to them. So it's like a case mentioned the academy Unthank paid. She mentioned they had him on my on my emails that I got from her. And then I now get a regular email from her. I'm on her email list and she emails me every Wednesday. This is the other Chebet about a funnel that people don't think about. So they're thinking about, you know, the sales and the and the move from here to here to here.

But there is a period of time where so if you got on my email list, like months ago through a lead magnet, you're just getting my weekly emails and you're probably seeing of the things I'm encouraging to listen to the podcast, but my weekly emails are all about adding value. So my Wednesday email, I call it my love letter. Okay. So I imagine I am writing this letter to one of the people on my list and how would I speak to them if I was talking directly to them.

It's not a newsletter, it's not a sales letter and it's definitely not a hey, I've got a podcast this week because hopefully they've seen I have a podcast and hopefully they listen to anyway. So I treat it as separate content and I give them something different. So this week I talked about the story of how I got to do a TED talk and how I nearly didn't get the chance. And, you know, that's there's no real learning other than the fact of, you know, what are you potentially missing out on by not doing something or not taking a risk or not taking a step.

So there is a bit of learning. But next week I might give them five things for Instagram or, you know, the week after I might give them a funnel conversation. So so I treat that as different. You won't get that anywhere else. So that's the other thing you've got to be loving on those people between that point and that point. So so then what whether a funnel comes in in terms of converting them, you need to launch somehow.

And when I say launch is not necessarily launch, as in it's just opening, but you need to create some excitement around the thing that you're selling. So even if you have an open cart scenario, i.e. you're selling all the time, you still want periods throughout your year where you can create more of a fuss about it. So, for instance, I'll have a five day less building challenge and the option at the end of the day, this building challenge is to get them into the academy so they might get a special offer or they might get a bonus or they might get something else.

The academy is actually the car is going to close, which will be the first time I've closed it since I opened it at the end of October. And so, weirdly, I'm having a master class in order to get ready for the close. You know, it's already open. They could join at any point. But because I know I've got to create, you know, some activity around it, I need to do something. So so a webinar, a master class, a challenge and live launch, all of those things are great.

And what you're effectively doing is you're giving them some kind of example of what it is they're going to buy, because inevitably an online thing is a training, a teaching, a coaching. So the idea of creating this free content is that they get an idea of what's coming. So once you've kind of got them in there in your funnel that, you know, they're getting your regular emails, then you set up a load of emails to those people to say, hey, actually, I've got this thing.

I think it's really good and this is where the funnel thing comes into play. So when you come into my email list, let's say, and you download the launch chat list, that's one of my lead magnets I've got there currently that talks all about how to launch and the various points you need to go through. Or you came in and you downloaded my social media. Managers checklist, which is basically how to proactively do engagement on social media, even though I both I want both of you to come to this masterclass, I might speak differently to both of those people.

So, for instance, for the launch people, I might focus on the fact of, you know, the master. We've got to talk about taking a product online. That might be just one of the things we talk about, but that's how I focus it in their email, in the people who did the social media management thing. I might talk about the fact of, you know, the importance of social media when you're selling, using digital products or whatever.

So that's where the beauty comes in, really, and that's where the kind of part of the funnel stuff really starts to come to play because it says, I know you, I know what you downloaded, I know what you liked, and I know that you're interested in this the same way as when we start going into the sales aspect, even though effectively you're selling one thing saying to those launch people. Right. In the academy, there is a whole sales page training.

There is a lead magnet training, there is a landing page training. There is like basically all these things that are going to really help you launch, but then saying to the social media people. Right, in that there is Facebook ads, course, there is a Instagram stories, there is an Instagram cause all you're doing is it's the same product and all that stuff is in there. You're just using the information you've already built about them in order to better market to them.

Does that make sense? Absolutely nailed it.

A lot of people's experience of a website is they hire a website designer to build the website. They pay the invoice. You're on your own guys. And that leaves them quite exposed when they speak to people like you and I and they're being told, OK, you're going to need a landing page for this, a thank you page. In fact, you probably weren't landing pages for each of your lead magnets. And they go, yeah, but how many of them are meant to do this without rehiring that web designer who frankly won't have a clue what I'm now asking him for because they they built the website.

Not stuff to do. Yeah. The Web designers are great at building websites, but they don't know digital marketing. They certainly don't know what I would qualify as Internet marketing. Now, I know there are a lot of onsite online builders and WordPress plug ins for this, but if somebody was particularly if there weren't a digital native, how would you advise them to do this?

Even if it's going to cost a little bit of money being sensible, how should they do it? So there's a few options. So one of the options I did to begin with is I did bring someone in and I was like, okay, you're an expert at this. I need you to build this for me. However, I soon discovered I didn't like not being able to control it. And the beauty of having an online product is that I can go in and add a course to it or I can go in and update a course, or I can go in and build an extra page because I've just thought the brilliant idea for a landing page or for a lead magnet.

So for me, I wanted the control on it. Now, will I always want that control? Absolutely not. You know, the day I can handle this over to someone else. Great. I will look forward to that day. But I think especially when you're first starting off, it's actually really important to try to as much as this as you possibly can only so you know how it works. So there are certain systems out there that for me kind of really help in terms of getting you to a quick based knowledge and being very intuitive and user friendly.

So one of the very first systems I used and actually I did it a qualification with them in conversion marketing, which was another thing I did in those early days, was lead pages. So lead pages just create landing pages and pages and they talk to other email systems because basically you need something to deliver the email and you need the page that they land on. They really quickly a landing page. All I mean by that is a page that sits separately from your site.

Now, it could technically still be part of your site, but hidden. But the key thing about the landing pages, I don't want your menubar on there. The only button I want on there is the button that they have to click in order to get the thing and put their details in, because if you give them if you do this on, say, you just add an additional page to your website or they're going to do is go, oh, what's the about us or what?

What's this thing? And then they go off and they forget to do it. So the landing page is a specific page, that sort of thing, and lead pages are brilliant. And then I moved quite a while back now over to KJB. Now, if you are serious about having an online business and you want to do a membership or a course, something like KJB is. Actually, really, really good, so engager be one of the things that put me off and scared me to begin with was like I was using lead pages to build a landing page as using Infusionsoft, which why that is a very big and complicated and expensive system to send emails.

And that would manage the funds better, i.e. the automation. If someone does this, make them have this. I was using oh, what was I using other stuff for, what did I use. So if I was doing webinars, if I was doing events, they'd be done through something separately. The actual course I had that I sold was done through wish-List member. So I was using all these systems and the ability for them to all talk together was confusing and hard and and quite frankly, scary because it was like any one of these systems on their own could go wrong.

If that's not talking to that one properly, then I've just upset a lot of people or sent them something they shouldn't have had. Or so for me, when I went to Caiabi, I made the decision to move there because everything is in-house. So it is an expensive platform when you first look at it. However, when you add up all the other things that you don't need to have, it's actually really cost effective. So but in there, you've got the landing page bill there.

You've got the email system, you've got the funnels, you've got automation, you can tag them, you can build your course. It's got a payment processor. So if you're starting out and and you can afford to spend a little bit and I didn't start on the job, but like that, I did spend money on other things and then thought, actually, this isn't working for me. So if you can afford to spend something on these things, which you do want, because that's the other thing, like people, they they're not thinking future ahead.

So, for instance, they'll be like, well, I'll put this up. And if they want it, they can do me and I'll send it there. And it's like, yeah, that's cool if you're getting one a week. But what if you get in a day? Like everything I did, I thought for scaling. So anything we do in our business, even to this day, we always think, hey, might this look, if there was ten times the amount of people or how would I deal with this if it was this?

So for me, that's why I move to something like KJB fairly early on or when I was serious about right, I'm taking all online. That's when I moved. And they manage everything in one platform. It all talks to each other. You don't need to worry about, you know, an API breaking or something, doing an update and then breaking something out. So for me, that works really well. Nice. Some people that's not their thing and they really like to use particular systems, that particular things.

And also, don't get me wrong, you know, Infusionsoft as we cleverer than Cajal by email, however, it was very expensive and very confusing and you had to get it to talk to the other systems. So for me, that's why I went ahead with with KJB and just found something that was a nice solution. But there's also other things, you know, I don't know one that does. All in all I need is think effec, but I don't think they manager emails.

And there's lots of email providers. Like I said, you know, you've got convert get an active campaign that will definitely manage landing pages, opt in boxes, thank you pages and automation. But they're not the course or the membership sites. So for me, if you are serious and you want to do all that, then probably the job is worth a it.

And again. And again and again. I guess alongside that I looked at KJB and I found the presales is quite difficult to understand really what it is that you're potentially buying. And I never really got to the bottom of how they handle or if they handle the community elements of it. A membership site. Yes.

Now, do you know how I got honestly, I get to things in a really strange way. So, you know, I got to his KJB.

I like going to events. I like to put myself in front of people's faces, which, you know, in this weird online world, actually, I'm still very traditional and I do like to meet people.

So I had seen this event that was being put on in Irvine, in California that was literally like a two week past an event I was already doing in California.

And the line up for this event was phenomenal. Like it was a who's who of the digital marketing world, Brendan Bouchard, Rachel Hollis, Amy Porterfield, Jasmyn star, James Wetmore, like literally rock stars, all of whom use Cadabby.

And it's because it was a KGB event.

Right. So to be to be able to actually buy a ticket, you had to be a KGB user. Now, obviously, at that point, I didn't use KGB and I didn't want to invest at that point. So I contacted them. They'll probably tell me for saying this. I contacted them. I said whatever. After the free trial, can I still go if I paid for my ticket in the light? Yeah, so I went to this conference and I swear to goodness, I must have been the only person there, wasn't it?

Because it was quite hilarious.

But the community aspect in terms of like how the how they treated the people who used to be the help they gave them, the support that gave them the love they gave them for me was just like, oh, wow, you guys are awesome. They didn't sell once because obviously didn't need to a room for like a job. Users.

However, I only had to be in that room for a couple of days to then go. I'm signing up. But in terms of community, from a membership point of view, they actually have a community area. So if you don't want to use Facebook, which obviously lots of online memberships and courses and things do as a group, you can do it all through KJB and they have apps as well. So once you've created your membership, it's not that much work.

And I don't think any more money to actually turn your membership into an app that then people can use on their phones. This is exciting. Mhm. It's, it's good.

It's there. They've got some great stuff. So I'm looking at the time and thinking we've been going for quite a while now, but I still want to ask you, I mean it's very easy to focus on what's going well, what we're good at. But I'm really curious to know which part of your business do you struggle with. Which part do you look. I go I find that very difficult or I know this is the next step I need to take in my business, but maybe I'm a bit scared of how where are you in in that?

I think, you know what? In honesty, I think it happens a lot. I think one thing that's really interesting now, I've worked with lots of people in our industry and I've worked with lots of Packers and the Packers are really good. Like when there's two of them, they seem to be really efficient and get stuff done and not just because it's two of them, but because they almost have that accountability to each other. So I often find that even though I know what to do, that's sitting in my own head, in my own office on my own.

I can go round and round and round in circles and I can procrastinate when really there's no if you know, if I was to get someone on a call with me and they would say rectories, I'm in this position, which is exactly the same position I was in, I would be able to tell them what to do with in a heartbeat. But obviously with your own stuff, it's difficult. So I think for me the time element is a tricky one because I can do everything it means I am maybe not as organized.

So for instance, on Monday, so we're recording this on Thursday. On the next Monday coming, my podcast comes out. It comes out every Monday. And on that podcast I tell people that I'm doing a webinar, a masterclass, free training, and I tell them where to go, i.e. what the link is. And I haven't actually set that up yet. We have like a weekend and a couple of days. And I think that's half the problem because I can do it like it's.

Oh yeah, I'll do that. I'll do that. I'll do that. So sometimes, even though I know the steps, I'm not giving myself enough time because I know if I'd gone to myself as a client and said, right, you want to do this, this is why I want this ready for. So I think I think sometimes that's difficult. I think the fear thing for me has got a lot better. So I literally now ask myself, what's the worst thing that can happen?

Like, I just, you know, I want I'm putting on a special day in November and it's a in fact, the first time I've spoke about it. So basically in the next couple of weeks, I'll be publicizing it. And it's for academy members only. It's an online event that we're doing where I have done little things that but never a whole day where we plan twenty, twenty one, where we review everything we've done with goals that I talk you through, how I do all this because I do every year, how we break it down into quarters, how we then do campaign planning.

We've also got some very special guests coming in, doing things, the right mindset and various different things. And when I put that list together, I literally went, who would be absolutely unbelievable to go there in this event? And I contacted them and I got a no. Okay. And normally that no would have devastated me. And they sent me the most beautiful. No, you know, and if you ever do get know from these amazing people, they are normally very gracious, a very lovely.

And I said to my husband, I'm absolutely gutted about that, actually. And he's like, but you haven't lost anything. And and I have to then. So probably ten minutes of loten that's a shame. And being a bit grumpy. But then I was like, you know what it was, you know, I asked at the end of the day and I haven't lost anything and what's the worst that could have happened? They said no. And what happens then?

Nothing. They just said, no, I don't lose any money, my arm doesn't fall off, my daughter is still safe. And I know that sounds like an extreme thing to think about, but honestly, I have seen people who are phenomenal not do very well purely because they're terrified. And it's like, if you could just try if you could just get that bravery to go, you know what? And then realize that you didn't die, then, you know, the sky's the limit.

So for me, not so much that now I you know, you don't like if you you're to say nice things about you. But to be honest, I very rarely get that which touch with fingers crossed. But yeah, I think it's just a case of the planning thing. I need to get way better. And my team, I'm the bottleneck all the time, like I've done this.

I hear you there, Theresa. We should bring things to a close. But I need to remember to ask you. What's usually the last question I ask every guest, and that's what's one thing that you do now that you wish you'd started five years ago. So for me, it's the mindset thing when I started my business, I thought, how hard could this be? I'm serious. Like, honestly, I look back and laugh at myself for my naivete because I did marketing.

I knew it like I was good at it. So I genuinely thought, well, this is what I've done for my job for literally 16 years. And well, no, not at that point. It was like 10. And I thought, how hard could this be? I never once thought about how important my mindset was so I can have all the best tools, tactics, strategies in the world. And believe me, I literally screenshot funnels like you wouldn't believe.

I constantly opt into things because I just want to see what they do. So, you know, this is like literally in my DNA. But if I wake up in a morning and feel the fear, which I did because I didn't launch, if I wake up and just feel like I don't want to do it or someone says something mean or I look at someone else is doing amazingly and get complete from o'War, you know, they're doing great and no one likes me.

And then basically it doesn't matter how good my strategy is and knowledge is, I won't do the work. So for me, the mind set piece is like, that's the best. And when I look at the people who I sort of aim to be like or I'm inspired by, they have that fairly sewn up. They realized very early on that that was the key almost to their that kind of success in the sense of when you get knocked down, which you do constantly, you get back up again and you get back up again and you get back up again and you have got some well, you've got to have some amazing resilience to be able to do that.

And that's what I work on. That's why I have a morning routine. I meditate every morning. I journal all the time. Like I'm constantly saying to my husband, I'm going to journal that. I'm going to journal that I like. And and I have to do a lot of work around learning things. I read personal development books and business books like they're going out of fashion. But that for me, that's what's enabled me to keep going.

And having this unwavering faith, which I do, that everything I want, I'm going to get it's going to come. But it's not going to be a straight line. It's not going to be like easy peasy. So I've just got to keep going and going and going. So I need that resilience.

That's a fantastic answer Theresa is wearing. If people want to take things further with you, how can they do that? How would you like them to get in touch with you so you can pick your favorite platform and Google my name and you will find me.

But I am more often on Instagram or more regularly on Instagram than anywhere else. And I do love an extreme story. Or you can just go to Torres's wearing dot com and you'll find me that through the Earth wearing.

Thank you very much for your time. I can't wait to speak to you again and probably meet you in person, but I don't think we've actually spent any time together. No, I think that we have no. So no, I just can't wait for that in general when we can actually see real paneling and it'll be amazing. Thank you very much.

If you don't ask, you don't get. We've all heard that a million times, but we hear it a lot because it's true. The main problem most people have in business and in sales is that they never actually make an offer. So make an offer. Before we go, just a quick reminder to subscribe. And if you haven't joined the Facebook group, you'll find a link in the show, notes or visit, amplify me, dot form forward slash insiders.

I would love for you to connect with me. You'll find me on social media wherever you hang out. My name's at Bob Gentil. Easy to find if you do connect with me. Messaged me to let me know. That way I can follow you back. If you've enjoyed the show then I would love for you to review on iTunes. It would mean a lot to me and it's the very best way to help me reach more subscribers. My name is Bob Gentile.

Thanks again to Teresa for giving us her time this week and to you for listening. See you next week.


That’s it - Episode 100 is out! In this week’s show Alex Curtis turns the tables on me and guest hosts the show - interviewing me!

We talk about what I do with my clients and how I bring them value. 

We explore my podcast journey and how my attitude to and perspective on my business ( outside the podcast ) has changed over the last two years. 

If you want to know what I do, how I do it and who I do it for then this is the episode for you. 

As well as that I explain, very candidly, what my challenges have been about how the podcast has changed everything.

Thanks for listening!

It means a lot to me and to the guests. If you enjoyed listening then please do take a second to rate the show on iTunes.  Every podcaster will tell you that iTunes reviews drive listeners to our shows so please let me know what you thought and make sure you subscribe using your favourite player using the links below.

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