About Bob Gentle

I work with businesses of all sizes on digital marketing, host the Amplify digital marketing entrepreneur podcast and work with entrepreneurs to help them amplify their business online.


It's very rare that a podcast interview leaves me questioning everything I do but this interview with Tom Matzen accomplished just that. Tom's focus is helping people build 'high ticket' programs and explains to me why he feels that the orthodox 'ascension model' of online business will very never lead to genuine success for most people and exactly what you can do instead.

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Hi there and welcome back to Amplify, the Personal Brand Entrepreneur podcast. I'm Bob Gentle, and every Monday I'm joined by amazing people who share what makes their business work. Now, it's very rare that a podcast interview leaves me questioning everything I do. But this interview with Tom Mattson accomplishes just that. Tom's focus is on helping people build high ticket programmes. And he explained to me why he feels the Orthodox Ascencion model of online business will very likely never lead to genuine success for most people and exactly what you could be doing instead.

As you may know, the show is supported by our sponsor Agora Pulse. And why is that? Well, you know how hard it is to juggle all the things in your business accounts, meetings, the never ending inbox. And that's why I teamed up with a group just to give you more than five hours back a week. When it comes to managing your social media marketing, no complicated Excel docs, long emails are millions of open tabs. Simply managing all your social media channels in one place go to amplify Mehtar agency forward slash Ogura Pass to score to three months on me.

Now all you have to do is figure out how to spend those five extra hours. Now, if you're new to the show, could take a second right now to subscribers who don't miss new episodes and you can grab older ones when you're done with this one. Don't forget as well. You can join my Facebook community, just visit, amplify me, dot form forward, slash insiders and you'll be taken right there. So welcome along. And let's meet Tom.

This week, I am thrilled to welcome Tom Matzen to the show, Tom, for the guests who don't know you, why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are, where you are, and most excitingly, what you do? Well, thank you, Bob.

So excited to be here. I always believe in podcast world. There's at least two people listening at any one time. So hello to both of you and hello to you, Bob.

I don't know how true that is. As a fellow Commonwealth, I'm on the west coast of Canada and a little island just outside of Vancouver, and we have an island the size of Manhattan, but with 3500 people. So we practise social distancing as a lifestyle choice. I don't know about this covid craziness. We've been doing it for years. We love it. We love it. And for me, I focus on this this section of my business career.

I've been an entrepreneur for thirty nine years. I know it doesn't look a day over thirty eight, but really it's thirty nine years. And the last seven or eight years I've been focussing entirely on helping authority entrepreneurs, you know, coaches, speakers, influencers, package their wisdom and knowledge and build seven and eight figure businesses and global movements at the same time. So my title officially is Chief Movement Maker. Over those 30 some years I've started Eighty-Nine businesses of my own, eight of them to seven figures and beyond.

Several crashed and burned and most somewhere between. So I've made more mistakes on my own businesses than most people make in a lifetime, made and lost millions many times over. And I think that's part of the value that I bring to the table, is that not only have I succeeded in a number of areas, but I've also failed miserably in many others. And, you know, as you know, some of the best lessons come if we're if we're open to learn some of the best lessons come from those failures.


I think for the listener, it's maybe worth noting you and I met on a summit when we were both panellists. And the thing that really leapt out was that you had a very different attitude and it wasn't so much what you said as the things around what you said that had me intrigued. And before we started recording, you were talking about the Ascension model and how the Ascension model doesn't work. So I guess I'd like to jump straight into that. So for the listener who doesn't know what the hell I'm talking about, for the information entrepreneur, the knowledge entrepreneur, authority entrepreneur, what would they normally be told about how to build their business?

And how does your philosophy to that differ?

Yeah, great question. And I'm happy to talk about this, because one of the biggest myths perpetrated by the so-called gurus in our space is that you start with a, you know, a free item, then a low ticket trip wire of some sort, you know, an ebook or a mini course. And then you work your way up and you go to a higher priced course and then maybe you go to a full course at two thousand dollars and then you get into some high ticket offerings and grow from there.

And they teach this and they tell you to do this.

And I can tell you, Bob, I've met over 10000 people in our space who sell their wisdom and knowledge. Now, five, make money with an ascension, more than five and some break even on the Ascension model, which is which is the sophisticated way to actually use it.

You know, you lose money on all the front ends, you break even on some of the middles and you eventually move to the high ticket. But here's the thing. They don't tell you it. It blows my mind is that all of the ones that are making real money and buy real money, I mean, mid seven figures in our midst, seven figures, eight figures and so on. So, you know, five million a year, 10 million a year and so on.

They all make their real money off their high ticket offering. And I've got a chance to share the stage with most of them, I know many of them, I've been behind the scenes in the green rooms and mastermind's with these people and they'll tell you very freely in those settings. That's the situation. In fact, when I first was exposed to this, I just joined Jeff Walker's platoon, a mastermind. And for those that don't know Jeff, he's the launch guy.

The march for me actually is the man on the Internet is the man he's done his clients have done over five hundred million in sales using launches. And we were in his high end where we were in one of his high end mastermind's. It was his baby one year. It was just 18 grand a year. And there were seventy three of us. He had a much higher end, one that was 35 grand a year and a wait list called platinum plus.

But just the normal the normal mastermind, there were 70, some of us. And he shared that on his launches now remember, this is the launch king, this is one of the best guys in the world at it. He breaks even at around two point one million on a launch.

He breaks even. Which means if he does a million and a half for a launch, which is phenomenal results, if you've ever tried that launch format, you know how phenomenal that is.

He loses several hundred thousand dollars and he's quite prepared to do that because he understands business and model and lifetime value customer and everything else. But and Jeff doesn't tell people to do, in a sense, essential model start small. He at least gets them to start at the two thousand dollar level. But so many people in our space teach this Ascencion model, and the reason they do is they have already established their high ticket programme. They were already making money on their high ticket programme, and now they're in filling or what some people love willingly describe squeezing a dollar out of every person on their list.

Which is just a lovely metaphor, isn't it, that we're being squeezed like an infection or something, but that's what it is, they're literally squeezing money out because they know, you know, Tony Robbins shared with me three percent of people that buy courses from him, complete them, not get results. That's smaller, just complete the course. Courses don't work, and by the way, that's Tony Robbins crowd, and if you ever met any Tony Robbins acolytes or perhaps you are one, you're pretty enthusiastic, you're pretty committed, you're pretty self driven, and three percent of that audience completes the course.

So that's kind of like the gold bar standard. And so we learnt very quickly that courses and Ascencion model are completely the wrong way to go.

If you want to create a business and if you want to have impact for your clients, and if you want your clients to complete your training and get results, you need to have skills, accountability and mentorship when you're training people or they're not going to get results, they're just not going to get results.

And you can't afford to do skills, accountability and mentorship unless you're selling high ticket. And so we teach it the opposite way. We call it a descension model. It's what Tesla used to build the most profitable car company in the world. They use the descension model. It's what a lot of other smart information marketing entrepreneurs are teaching now, guys like Nick Kuzmich and Joel Erwa. But it's still probably 80 percent of the world is being taught Ascencion model.

And probably most of the people listening to this today. I've been taught to start with a small free item and then a small purchase and then a small purchase. And the economics just don't add up unless you're a massively good marketer and are massively good at copywriting and conversions and optimising and split testing. And most of us are. Most of us aren't. And so not only is it a tough strategy, you have to be so frickin good at these components to make it work that I'll tell you a fascinating story, Bob.

I had an interview, a strategic alliance discussion with one of those five. Remember I said there were five out of ten thousand that make money at it? Yeah, well, one of them, a very strong, solid entrepreneur. You know his name if I shared it with you, but he shared this with me in confidence, so I won't use his name here. He scrapped the entire Ascencion model and he was making money at every step of the way.

And we're talking million. And I asked him, I said, why don't you scrap it, he said, because they weren't getting results and I cannot sell something, that people aren't getting results. And so he's flipped his model on its head and he does a high ticket offer first. And his first year switching it over was last year, his first time offering that new approach. He did eight point three million on his lawn.

Eight point three million on his launch completely changed his business, his life. He was so much happier. His team was happier. They were getting results because this was mainly a done for you offer, but they didn't have to wait for anyone to show up and do it. They did it for the clients. It was just brilliant. And I really admired him because it's one thing if you're sucking wind and not making any money and you hear this advice from me and I'll give you a better way and you try it out, that's I hope you do.

But imagine if you're making millions and you scratchpad. Because not that it's not making your money as your clients aren't getting results, but that takes guts.

I'm very proud of yeah, but also I feel that it might be making money, but it's how you're making it. How much work are you having to put in to make that money? What's what's what's what's the lifestyle that you're managing to achieve? Because that takes a lot of moving parts. There's a lot to keep in your head.

It's a complex, complex systems and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of clients, if not thousands, do any real value. Whereas with our approach, we teach our clients to do high ticket programmes that guarantee results for their clients. Typically, they're twenty five thousand or one hundred thousand. Those are the two most common price points for those programmes. They start at ten thousand, but most are 25000 or 100000. Well, you don't have to be much of a maths major at 25000 a person.

How many clients do you need to do? A million a year, Bob?

Yeah, I mean, to put out spot, like while we're here, like dyscalculia is my main thing, so that at 40 I'll give you a 40, not four hundred, not four thousand, not forty thousand tripwires, 40 clients.

Well, most people can imagine working with 40 clients. In fact, probably most people listening to this either have 40 clients or have had a total of more than 40 clients.

But they're probably statistically speaking, they're probably not running a seven figure. Your business is in our experience, they're selling them to low ticket stuff that doesn't have skills, accountability and mentorship. So they can't guarantee results. So it makes it tougher to sell. It's really easy to sell a programme. And you guarantee results are our 100 thousand dollar programmes, guarantee a million in sales. It's pretty easy to sell them. You don't need some fancy copy skills.

You don't need subconscious commands.

You know, by now, Bob, it's time to seise your destiny.

And you slipped in the words by now, right?

I knew that I knew that world. I was trained by the associative conditioning peeps and the MLP peeps. And I used to sell webinars and I used to sell that way and I never liked it. But in order to be effective, I studied for the best.

And that's what it took in that environment, especially with webinars, because webinars are a big exercise in manipulation done right.

And about six years ago, we switched from webinars to master classes. And I am so grateful because master classes are just education based marketing. They're they what webinars were intended to be. But they found out that wasn't as effective as manipulation. And so the great webinar trainers even today will teach you how to manipulate the heck out of your prospect, make them feel like crap, make them feel like you're their solution. You're their salvation. Right, Bob?

You buy my course, buy my programme, and your world will be saved. And if you don't, you know, they'll they'll say things like, it's not for you if you don't want to grow your business. What kind of loser statement is that?

Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking back to the webinar training that I went on, and you've literally described it in a very few words. It's five steps of what's the problem? What would life be like if that wasn't a problem, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And you close that in a webinar format because you've got such a short window that you can educate them thoroughly on the topic. And so I get it. I did it for over ten years. I made more than forty million a year off webinars.

I understood it, but it was always, you know, I always felt kind of kind of slimy, frankly, especially the better I got at it. It just I didn't like it.

And then when I saw this other approach, I was like, oh, this is so much better.

You know, in our master classes, we take three hours to teach the topic. We teach the entire topic best we can. The whole strategy and our offer simply is now you know how to do it. Would you like help or do you want to do it on your own? You want to do it on your own. You know how good for you. Let us know. Keep in touch. You want our help here so we can help you.

So I have a question for you. Yeah, I read somewhere and I kind of remember when it might not be true, but it's and we're going to sort of speak about the coach slice of the market at the moment that the average coach in the US, and I'm sure it's the same in other places, struggles to make over fifty grand a year. Yeah.

And one thousand is the latest data. Fifty one thousand dollars. The average business coach, average life coach and business coach combined is thirty two. That right.

So what I'm reading from that juxtaposed with the picture you paint and I'm imagining that if you are that business coach that struggling to break fifty grand a year and you're talking, here's somebody talking about selling high ticket at twenty, twenty, twenty five grand, there's a mindset issue obviously going to jump out saying I could never do that. I couldn't sell a 25 grand a year package. If I've been struggling to make fifty grand a year, how the hell am I going to sell 20 grand a year package.

Really good concern question. And there's several parts to that answer. First off, just recognise that mindset issues are there for all I know, guys, literally at our last big. Global summit, we had a billionaire in the room and he had mindset issues. So first off, just no mindset and triggers are just part of the journey, you know, and if you don't think that's the case, then you're fooling yourself.

OK, so so just recognise that as an old mentor once said to me, you say to that voice in your head, thank you for sharing and you move on. OK, number one. Number two, it all depends on your strategy. See what most of us spend the time focussing on his tactics. And that's to me, one of the differences between a small business owner and an entrepreneur. An entrepreneur spends more time on their business working on strategy rather than the tactics of execution.

And they and they look at it differently. In our case, we have a brand new authorities sell high ticket programme. We've got lots of authority. We've done this. A whole bunch of people say, oh, it's easy for you to sell those things, blah, blah, blah.

Well, because we teach them to link their payments to results for their clients, they can say, well, Bob, but we're going to work together. That's why I only ask for twenty five percent down. All the rest is linked to results and I'm so confident I can get you there that I'm prepared to take the payments to results. So can you if you truly are confident about that, it'll come through in the conversation and the right person. The ideal prospect, the ideal target market will go to.

Fantastic. Let's talk.

So can you break down the linking payments to results? And in practical terms, how does that actually work?

Well, we call that risk reversal. My old mentor, Abraham, the twenty one billion dollar marketing guru, he calls it risk reversal. And so I use that term instead of guaranteed, because what you're really doing, if you think about it, is you're taking the risk off your prospect shoulders and you're putting it on your shoulder.

That's the key. And we teach a process of doing that. It's it's six steps to the first thing you want to do is identify the biggest risks your prospects face when working with you. Obviously, time and money are two of them. But what are the risks? Are there what are the risks?

Are there, for example, right. In the old days, IBM used to be known as inferior, but marketable. That was their nickname from the competition. Right. But here's the thing. If you are in a big corporation and you hired IBM, you never got fired for hiring IBM. There was no risk of being fired if you hired IBM, if you hired your cousin, cousin Johnny in his basement and and the IT department crashed and burned, you were gone.

Right. So there's all kinds of risks. Prospect's face in working with you. The first step you want to do is identify them the second. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes perfect sense. OK, next, do you want to create the biggest, boldest possible guarantee you can create? So before you figure out how you can deliver on it, you come up with the biggest, boldest possible guarantee. And, you know, if you're a if you're a business coach, it should be sales or profit or client period, full stop sales, profit or client, because that's what they want.

Now, if you're a life coach, you want to get into joy and happiness and sleeping at night. And there may be other factors that come into play. But let's focus on business coaches, because that's one of the easiest ways to monetise is to help other entrepreneurs. Well, they're not looking to to release triggers. They're not looking to have Interpeace. They're not looking to have a and more smiles on their face. Those are all by-products of what they want.

But what they want, if you talk to them, is I want more sales, I want more profit, I want more clients, some combination of those. And, you know, if it's men, it's primarily sales and profit. If it's women, it's primarily impact and clients. So if you have an audience focus and you should, you know, distinguish it that way for sure, we will first thing do who's come with the boldest possible guarantee you can create.

So we have a local area mastermind called Get It Together and in the get it together mastermind. These are four local businesses. We guarantee a quarter million in sales in 12 months. Really clean, really simple quarter million in sales in 12 months. And and we often have businesses come in that did a hundred thousand last year in total sales. Right. So that's bold for them, right? That's bold for them.

We have we have international programmes where we guarantee a million in sales, several of them actually one involving LinkedIn, one involving a book, one involving a podcast. We're launching one in about a week as we record this on virtual summits. Basically what we do is we partner with world class authorities.

We take our high ticket programme strategy and their expertise in that niche and combine them with something that delivers amazing results. And so biggest, boldest possible guarantee you can create. Second step with me so far. Got you. I'm making notes. Great. And then number three you is where the work is. You figure out how to deliver on that bold guarantee. You figure out how to deliver on that. And if you're on your own and you're listening to this and going, why the heck do I do that?

Get help. Oh, for Pete's sake, get help. Find, you know, watch one of our master classes. You know, they're all free. Every one of our master classes are free or find someone else who knows how to guarantee results. But lordy, lordy, lordy, don't try and figure this out on your own right if you're taking up a new sport. Right. Like what's one of your favourite sports? But I love snowboarding. Snowboarding.

Oh, perfect example.

If you try and teach yourself snowboarding, what do you get us.

You get a saw what Bob called broken bones, broken bones and a sore arse like your butt gets pounded and pounded and pounded.

It is a tough spot. I was a skier to skis and I started trying to snowboard on my own. What a stupid mistake that was. That lasted one day of trying to do it on my own because it was like ridiculous. Right? And yet if you get someone to teach it to you, they teach you the right way to stand, the right way to fall, the right way to put your hands when you fall.

All kinds of stuff. I learnt I had to laugh. The first thing he taught me was how to fall. And it was a good thing because he saw how coordinated I was. I needed that right.

So you get someone involved who knows how to do this, but you figure out how to deliver on that bold guarantee and sometimes that simple, sometimes that's complex. But then step four is where the magic is on that I call it. And you're dragging your plan and I call it that because Anurag Gupta, one of the smartest business coaches I know, taught me this strategy. So I call it and asking his honour. And he uses he by the way, he takes companies that do ten million a year and gets them to a billion with a B and has a one hundred percent success rate.

Now, I will tell you, there are some fine print. If you if he hires you or you hire him and you don't listen, he fires you. So not one hundred percent of the people that start with him get to that level, but one hundred percent of the people that start with him and listen do. And for you yoga fanatics out there, you might know the store, Lululemon, his first client was Chip Wilson, went from store one to a billion in sales in that area.

So the guy really, really, really knows how to scale and his strategy of Anurag ing, we teach all of our clients and all of our master classes all the time. So you've got your plan to deliver on your bull guarantee. Now, what you do is you build in triple redundancy. So the first thing you do and I'm a go through this quick, but it's so powerful you want to dig into it. Anyone listening and reach out and I'll get you a link to some training on it.

The first thing you do is you double the goal. So let's go back to that local business of a quarter million in sales kebob, because that's something that's more and within most people's grasp million and intimidate some people, right? Quarter million in sales. What we do is we double the goal to half million first step. We're actually not trying to get you a quarter million in our get it together brand. We're trying to get you half a million.

Then we figure out with your cooperation, three different strategies, each capable of getting you to half a million superimportant. Each of the strategies are capable of getting to half a million on their own.

Now, what are you playing for? Well, half a million times three came up with or without the calculator. What's that? I think that was three million. Half a million. Half a million times. Three. One and a half. One and a half million. Yeah. So that's six times your original goal. Right, original goals, quarter million. Now we've created a plan for one point five million, so we blow through the quarter million on the way there, we blow through.

Do we get to one point five million? No, normally not.

But we blow through a quarter million on the way there. So that's step four, we call it. And you're egging your plan.

Step five, you then link payments to your clients, resolve your clients resolve. So that's where your question was. This is where it fits in the process. So in a twenty five thousand dollar programme, we typically ask for 25 percent upfront because if they don't have skin in the game, they don't listen plain and simple. They don't have skin in the game. They don't listen. Now, the skin in the game mean they will listen.

Not always is the real world, but it so much increases the odds over no skin in the game. So we recommend twenty five percent on twenty five thousand or programmes. We recommend twenty five percent down one hundred thousand dollar programmes will do it for twelve and a half percent down but on twenty five thousand dollar programmes you recommend a quarter down, so 60 to 50 and then everything else is linked to results. In our case we recommend the next twenty five percent when they can self fund that payment.

Which is typically about 50000 in sales for most people, given their margin. Right. So we'll do 60 to 50 and then 60 to 50 at 50000 in sales.

And then we do 25, 50 percent when they get to the quarter million. You know how happy they are to give us that final payment, Bob?

Yeah, I can actually really see that. I think it becomes a no brainer for them. They're like, oh, my God, I love that. I love that. That would be incredible. That would be awesome. Oh, my gosh. And then step six to this risk reversal process is you've got to test and measure, test and measure, test and measure, test and measure. Because, you know, a lot of people think guarantees are about money back.

And we don't notice in that process there was no money back offered. Yeah, right.

The skin in the game is skin in the game. They need to have a commitment. They need to be all in on applying this approach of your whatever it happens to be. And so what we've learnt is they need that. You don't want to fund that. Besides, you already delivered the value on that. However, you don't get any of the other payments unless they get the results. And so whether you're doing it done with you coaching scenario or a done for you where you're doing most of the heavy lifting.

Either way, you're getting paid based on results. They're ecstatic to pay you. And if they struggle and don't get results, guess what you get to do? You get to up your game and help them out even more, which is totally smart. Like that's the way it should be. That's the way it should be right now. It's a competitive advantage to market this way. I hope someday it'll be the law.

But I love it because I think anybody listening knows that they can they can deliver if they can get the client engaged. Yes. And this you're right. It makes so much sense. I can totally see this. I mean, I had a lot of reservations when we started speaking because I'm thinking, well, I got a real problem with some clients. And if any clients are listening and any client that is listening, this is not about you.

Of course, the other one, but a lot of clients, they hire you and they want you to come and wave a magic wand and fix them. They don't want to participate in that. They just want to painkillers. They don't want to diet and exercise. Yes.

And you've engineered that in well, you got to build in skills, accountability and mentorship if you want to deliver results. My my you know, we talked about Tony Robbins and three percent of people with courses, programmes where you build in skills, accountability and mentorship get between 20 and 80 percent result, though, orders of magnitude better than a programme, but still not 100 percent. My idol in this space, my absolute top of the pile mentor is a lady called Wendy Lipton Dinner.

She gets 93 percent completion, Paul. Well, ninety 93 percent now I went to a deep dive training on it, and the reason she does is she teaches 14 strategies you simultaneously execute with every client and four strategies to make sure you're screening and qualifying them and only letting in the right people. So 18 different strategies overlayed to get to 93 percent. I love it. I just love it. I love it. I love it. And we're implementing them.

And we've gone from 20 to 43 and some of our programmes, we've gone from 40 to 60 and some of our programmes. I'm not going to be happy until we get to 83 percent, I think.

Ninety three percent. Ninety three percent. Sorry, Wendy. I want to at least match Wendy. I'm not going to be happy until then. So it's possible to get dramatic results. But if you're not charging enough money for it, you can't afford to build in skills, accountability and mentorship that.

That's absolutely. I think what I'm seeing here, just visualising what life would be like implementing this kind of model is you have time, you have time to work with these clients and do it right. But you also have time to really serve your audience with no expectations of something back in return that you can be as nice and helpful and generous as you like and you don't need money for it.

Totally. Well, I get more joy out of our masterclass attendees that never spend a dime with the reviews they write, the recommendations they give us. I mean, they would make my mom proud. I mean, it's amazing.

Some of the reviews and recommendations we get from non payers, from what the industry lovingly calls freebies, freeloaders, blah, blah, blah. Well, guess what?

Not everyone can has the capital. Not everyone's ready to make the changes in their life. It's not just the capital, it's the ready. Are they ready? Not everyone's ready. You got fast movers, media movers and slow movers. Everyone knows that if you've been a business more than a year, you know, some people move fast, some people move medium and some people move slow. Well, we design our masterclasses for the medium and slow movers.

Fast movers already engaged us. By the time a master class comes around, they're ready to rock and roll and have some fun. So those people are a whole different breed. They're the ones that value their time more than their money. So if you can speed up their solution, they're all over it. It's all right. You know, you've met people like that, Bob. They're just like chop, chop, chop, chop, chop. You can get me.

They're good. I mean, let's go.

So I want to ask on behalf of the person who's been plodding away trying to sell fifty dollar memberships or four or five hundred pound a month mastermind's, and they want to move from what's keeping them afloat to what's going to change the game from for so the way things have always been done to the way things could be done. Yeah. How do you turn that oil tanker, its strategy.

It's strategy. And I'll give you two examples on the membership side, the person who teaches memberships the most and sells the most trainings on this subject will be well known to the people that do membership sites out there. He has internal data, which he doesn't tell you until you spend a couple of grand on his programme or its course.

Really, he doesn't tell you until then is that the average person stays with you for three months. You think anyone would ever start a membership site if they knew that that four point three months was the average time someone would stay with you?

Nobody would do a membership site. I spent over a quarter million bucks. I was going to watch Netflix for entrepreneurs several years ago. I had this great idea I was going to innovate the world and blah, blah, blah. Guess what?

Same thing as like, oh, man, you can't make money on four point three months. So so first off, you've got to be careful who you're getting your strategy from. On the mastermind side, the best example I can give you is a gentleman. We just awarded the rights to United Kingdom in Ireland to Neil O'Brien. Neil runs Mastermind's as his business and typically for nine hundred pounds. And he heard about our approach from someone in another mastermind that I'm part of.

And we met and he watched our master class and he goes, I can't believe that. Like, why have I not thought of charging twenty five thousand and guaranteeing results? This is brilliant. And, you know, about a month and a half later, he bought the rights to a huge area. He's going to open up one hundred chapters of this brand and he's starting to fill his first chapter in Ireland right now as we record this. And this is a guy who does mastermind's for a living and at nine hundred pounds a month.

So it's not like a super low end price point.

But he saw our model and structure and went, oh, my gosh. And in this particular case, because we have a whole bunch of systems to make it easier to sell and screen and qualify and train and get results, he decided to partner up with us instead of just do it on his own. But frankly, when we share our masterclasses, we're happy with either solution. We're happy with either solution. Some people love to partner up and get help.

Some people just got to do it on their own. They got to learn the lessons the hard way because that's how they're wired. My strategic advice is get help from someone who's been there because it makes it easier and cheaper. You know, as I previewed at the very beginning, I made and lost millions many times over. Every time I lost millions, it was by either ignoring counsel and advice or not seeking it. And every time I've made millions, it's the exact opposite.

It's like, what a surprise you think eventually would sink through to my skull. Well, now it has for the last 10 years. It totally has. And what a surprise. Now the failures have disappeared from my business portfolio and now it's success or crushing success. It's not all crushing success still, because you've got to test and measure and optimise and some ideas are better than other ideas. But now the massive failures have been eliminated from my model. And trust me, I'm much happier.

I'm much happier. So if you're if you're struggling with this idea and you're sick and tired of being sick and tired because you've got a hobby business, not a real business, you need to make a shift. You need to change your strategy. The tactics are easy to figure out once you change your strategy and so few people think about even your own behaviour. You're listening to this, right? Most of the time you're listening to figure out how do I run a Facebook or how do I use this or how do I use my blog or how do I do that when I write a headline or how do I do this?

What are you doing that for? Those are all tactics. Focus on the strategy. How do I make seven figures working less hours than I am now? Now, that's a good question. How do I make seven, because one of the things we haven't talked about yet is how do you create a programme if you're a coach that is scalable? That is scalable and here's my definition of scalable. This is a tough one. I learnt this from Frank Breea, who wrote the book Scale.

Be a great guest for you someday, Bob. By the way, you love him. He his definition of scale is you get a new client. No more work for you. Now, that's a tough definition. Yeah, right, that's a tough definition, even in our high end programmes, most of the on boarding calls are done by one of our senior people, sometimes by me, but now not always by me.

So we're partly fully scaled.

And I've been at this six years and I teach yet. So I'm not saying it's easy to pull off a scalable business, but you absolutely can't do it unless you are including scalable strategies. So one on one is never scalable.

Group coaching is scalable. Virtual training, of course, is scalable. Mastermind's are scalable, done for use services that are scalable by design, are scalable, done for use services that are custom are not. So if you website builders out there use templates, not custom. Oh, everybody wants a custom. Well that's. Yeah, but then you're going to be a servant to them. You're never going to have a scalable business. That's your choice. You can do that because we really don't want a website.

Now I'm going to get preachy again, we really don't want a website as a business owner, what do we want, Bob, when we say to someone, build me a website, we don't want a website, what do we want?

We want customers. Yeah, at the very least, we want to lead generation machine of some sort. We want a bunch of prospects to raise their hand and say, Bob, tell me more about what you do. I might be.

So this is where I wanted to go next was in order to make money online, there's a fairly simple formula and depending on how you implement this formula will sort of dictate your success or lack of it. And its traffic plus conversion equals money. So one thing we've spoken about is a lot is the conversion. What are you converting people on? If it's a high ticket offer, if you convert them and you can scale that, you'll do well. If you can retain them, you'll grow and you'll grow really, really nicely.

Once your clients have converted to your sort of methodology for want of a better word, how do they go about the audience side of things differently? How do you reach people?

Yeah, superb question. And it's essential that as entrepreneurs we figure this out. It's not just a good idea or nice to know it's essential. I believe that the leader of the business is responsible for marketing and innovation area and everyone else on your team as you build a team, should be responsible for everything else. So what is marketing? To me, marketing is I don't even use marketing and sales as terms because there's too much confusion about how it's applied.

I call it lead generation and lead conversion. Lead generation lead conversion.

What's lead generation taking people that are suspects that might be a prospect and educating them to the point where they raise their hand and say, tell me more. And in the digital world, electronically, metaphorically, they make an enquiry and say, tell me more or they opt in for your lead magnet.

They do something that says, I'm kind of interested in this. That's lead generation and mastering lead generation. Is it very teachable skill? We teach all of our clients how to do it. We have many master classes that teach it. It is a very master skill if your strategy is clear, because you're actually seeking a narrow segment, not everyone.

And when you know what that narrow segment is, i.e. your ideal target market, it's really easy to attract them because lead generation is nothing more than saying here's a problem you have. And I know you have it because I know you, I know you and people like you. And here's a solution for that problem. Would you like the solution? Look here, opt in here, whatever. Come here, watch my this, whatever.

And as long as you know the pain that you're solving is perfectly suited to them, it's quite easy to do that now. Extra for experts, for you advanced marketers.

We call this a strategic lead magnet because if you do it right, two things happen. And I really learnt this at a mastery level from Nick Kuzmich, who gets thirty thousand a month as a Facebook marketing retainer, thirty thousand a month by his clients, pay them and then they spend seventy eighty thousand a week on at. Oh yeah. So just imagine how good you got to be our lead generation. To keep paying someone that that's what I look at, he's generated over one hundred million in sales, over 10 million leads for his clients on high ticket programmes and and the nuances on unstrategic lead magnets.

The first one is you solve their most important pain.

In such a way that they are still hungry for more. The first part I used to do, the second part I did it, I would give them the whole damn solution on a lead magnet. If I could, I'd send them a book. I'd send them a video, detailed training. I'd send them as much help as I could. And it wasn't until I met Nick that I realised I was hurting them. I was hurting those prospects by solving the entire thing because guess what, without skills, accountability and mentorship, they're not going to get it done.

So if you give someone the entire solution plan, well, let me ask you this, how many people do you think attend our master classes on how to make a million dollars and make a million dollars without hiring us zero?

Yeah, I mean, I've never I've never met one yet. Actually, that's not quite true. I met one and we're now partners and we do a programme around podcast. It's called Million Dollar Authority Accelerator Programme, where his team sets up Dream One Hundred Prospect interviews for the podcast. And we do the high ticket programme and together we guarantee a million in 12 months. So he's now a partner. That's how impressed I was by his ability to execute before we were he was a client.

So, yeah, one I met one. So it's statistically some have for sure, but the nuance was the lead man that solves that burning problem but doesn't satisfy everything. It leaves them hungry, just like a good webinar would do. It leaves them hungry. And then your lead conversion process. In our case, we use masterclasses. Shows them the whole plan. In this case, you showed the whole plan, the more you show, the better it converts because your offer simply as would you like help.

And so in that in that example of the million dollar authority accelerator programme with Josh in our two of our three, our master class, we show Josh's entire 18 steps for taking someone and perfectly nurturing them for your podcast so that wait for it. Ninety three percent of them book a call after saying, How can I help you, Bob? How can I help you? Like ninety three percent he gets. It's crazy. Well, but he's got a system and it's 18 steps.

And in that second hour we teach the whole 18 steps. Well guess what happens? The right people go, holy cow, they totally know what they're doing. And I would go nuts trying to recreate this on my own. I'm way smarter partnering with these guys. And in our case, it's 12 and a half percent down in that programme. So 12 and a half percent down, all the rest linked to results. And we're guaranteeing a million in sales.

Oh, and I'm just I'm sitting here reflecting on how much value people give their clients that they're not the business as a value exchange. And a lot of the time, if you're not trying to deliver that value to the right person at the right time, you're not going to get the value that you really deserve.

Yes, money is just a reflection of the value we bring our clients. Yeah. And by guaranteeing results and really spending the time to reach the clients who really, really need those results, you can unlock that value. It's such a nice way of looking at things really, really elegant. I think. I'm I'm so glad we spoke.

Well, thank you for inviting me into both the two of you listening in. Congratulations.

I think I think somebody sort of joined us halfway through. Excellent. Excellent. Three of you high fi.

So tell me, if somebody wants to connect with you, how would you like them to do that?

Well, we're so passionate about teaching people this approach that last year we ran a test where we gave away a million dollars worth of our high ticket programme to people to create, blueprint, validate and sell their first or their next high ticket programme. We call it the Game Changer Programme Academy, and that scholarship offer went so well, we ended up doing five million dollars worth of scholarships last year. This year, we have strategically decided to double down and at least give twenty five million in scholarships away.

So the good news is if if you're this far into the recording and you're still with us, congratulations.

You're pretty smart, Zach. There'll be a link in the show, notes that will get you invite you to apply for a scholarship.

Now, right now, as of recording this, eighty one percent of the people that apply get it. So you won't be guaranteed to get it. But it's a ten thousand dollar programme. We teach the entire process of creating blueprint, validating and selling a high ticket programme. There's no investment of capital, but there is an investment of time. You need to put some time in the fastest. We've had someone pull it off is about thirty one actually.

Twenty eight days is our current record from start to selling their first high ticket programme through the scholarship. Twenty eight days. That's the fastest, but it's a four month programme. It comes with fifteen coaching calls a month and templates and an accountability partner and all the training and a whole bunch of stuff and we'd be honoured to give it away to your listeners. And we literally are non-profit.

Does this. It's called the Entrepreneur Empowerment Institute. Our mission of the non-profit is to reverse the failure rate of small business around the globe. Right now, two out of three small businesses fail in the first six years, and that's pretty covid craziness. Yeah, right. That's in good time and that's not acceptable. It's not acceptable that two out of three entrepreneurs fail. So we give these away as a strategy to reverse that failure rate. So all we ask in return, if you apply for a scholarship and you get in there is you apply it, you apply it, you show up, you you put it into action.

And we already know if you do that, you'll get results. And if you do that, you'll refer other people to us. And if you do that, you'll become a raving fan. We already know that. But I'll tell you, Bob, this won't surprise you. Half the people we give scholarships to don't show up.

Well, I am going to have my Black Friday elbow guards and knee pads on. I'm going to be at the front of the queue.

LAVETTE Well, we have a I didn't tell you this before, but we have a ninety eight point three percent podcast host application rate.

We have literally one one podcast on it since we started this. Who said, I know what I want, you know? OK, fine.

Right, right, right. So but yeah. We'd love to have you in there, Bob. Absolutely. Absolutely. There is so much opportunity. There is so much impact that's being left away. Plus, you know, let's face it, you could have twenty people on the same topic with the same offer, and each of them could have forty clients each doing a million a year. Yeah.

I think when you're when you're operating at the right level, you move into a post competition space.

Yes. In fact, my old mentor Jake calls it the strategy of pre-eminent.

When you're doing something so well that there is no direct competition, there's always indirect competition. But when you're doing something so well, there's no direct competition. It's the strategy of pre-eminence. And I'll wrap with a quick story where you talk about being outside your comfort zone and stretching to do this. We're developing a new programme right now. That's the best of all of those six figure programmes combined. And we're going to guarantee ten million in sales in thirty six months.

We want to take all of those strategies and then add a global licencing play to it. And I'm super excited about it. And it's super stretching our comfort zone. But in our world, the thirty six months is Anurag, which means we actually think we can get someone there in eighteen months. And that was stretching our comfort zone, like how do we get someone there. We actually tried for a year, we tried how can we do it year.

And we literally figured out we could, it would take 18 months. So we're calling it a thirty six month programme. It's going to guarantee ten million in sales. The fee will be one tenth or a million dollars and people will put ten percent of that down, which is still one hundred grant like significance. Not for everyone, obviously, but we're going to guarantee ten million in sales.

And I will tell you this, we will have a one hundred percent success rate.

We're going to anurag the heck out of that one like all of our programmes. But that one is going to be my Anurag Gupta equivalent. It's going to be that, you know, it's not ten million to a billion, but taking an authority entrepreneur and getting the ten million, they'll be the equivalent. And so we're super excited about that. But that we walk our talk on this, we walk our talk. We know what's the biggest, boldest thing we could think of.

How do we backward shape and how do we guarantee it then? How do we anurag it? How do we set the pricing up? So it's linked to results.

We walk our talk on these things. And if you're listening in and you're a tall, sick and tired of not making the money you deserve to make and frankly, not having the impact. You feel you need to have in the world or deserve to have in the world or ought to have in the world, then apply for the scholarship and we'll see inside the game changer programme, we'd love it.

Tom, I'm so glad I had you on the show. I have the best time. I think a lot of people have a lot to think about. A lot of people probably going to be going for a walk right now. So thank you so much for your time. It's been great to speak to you. You're welcome for you. Yes, sir. What's one thing that you do now that you wish had started five years ago?

Budget is we're constantly innovating five years ago and now.

Oh, well, it's it's a advanced application of Anurag. So let me describe it quickly for you. When we teach Anurag and we talk about triple redundancy. Right. Double, double and triple redundancy, but the actual strategy to get someone from 10 million to a billion is you build in triple redundancy at every stop. So you have three programmes. You have three target audiences, and you have three ways to fill each of the programme.

Target audience combinations that matrix.

Do not try this at home, kids, when you're first starting out OK, promise me you do not want to try this, but I wish I had tried that five years ago because I was familiar with Anurag and five years ago. And now we realise by doing that you're building redundancy on top of redundancy, on top of redundant more work to set it up, way less risk on the outcome.

And I'll give you a very specific example. We launched our very first big virtual event this January, and it was called the Strategic Alliance. Like, well, actually, we call it Strategic Alliance Summit. We've now rebranded it the Strategic Alliance Live. And it's an all deal making virtual event, three days, joint ventures and strategic alliances for three days. I love it. We did this live for six years in person because it covid we went to cyber.

We got way more people to come out, blew our mind, sign some four billion in term sheets. It's absolutely amazing. Now we're going to do it three times a year. So if you're tuning in, go to Strategic Alliance Live. You can get all the details. Our goal was a thousand people register. And keep in mind, Bob, we've never done a virtual event, OK? We've never done a virtual event. We've done masterclasses tons.

We've done live events, tons. But the live events for this topic, we're always hand curated.

Two dozen, three dozen, four dozen people was our biggest and we wanted a thousand.

And we put in this strategy of Anurag ing, the way I just described it, all three levels. And we had seven main strategies to fill the room as part of that seven, not three, seven, six failed miserably. I mean, really failed, not just a little bit like like, oh my God, do you know what you're doing? Failed.

OK, and we had thirty nine hundred people register. Wow.

And it was just we did, we did a seven figure event, we did multiple seven figures since the event. We're going to launch it now and we're doing it three times a year. It'll be at eight bigger division this year. The entire thing was because we, Anurag or Anurag, we did that. And so for me, without a doubt, that's the single biggest thing I wish I had done five years ago, that I thought, oh, that's too much work.

Well, you know what's too much work? Struggling to be broke. That's too much work. We're doing one on one coaching for the rest of your life. That's too much work. Right? This is way, way more fun and way easier. So there you go.

Tom, you have been an awesome guest. That's a fantastic answer. And I would love to have you back on the show sometime. Anytime. But for now, thank you very much and speak you soon.

Appreciate it, Bob. Thanks for listening, everybody. Making an awesome day. Well, like me, you probably have a lot to think about now. Tom really turns the whole world on its head and that's a great thing sometimes. But it's important if something is working for you already, lean into that. Keep doing it. It's very tempting to just throw everything out and start something else when you hear someone like Tom. I took a lot from that.

I'm going to be looking at some areas of my business, but I get that after every podcast guest. But Tom is very compelling. Before I go, just a quick reminder to subscribe. And if you haven't already to join my Facebook group, you'll find a link in the show, notes or just visit, amplify me dot com forward slash insiders. I would love for you to connect with me on social media. Find me wherever you hang out.

Just look for at Bob Gentle. And if you do message me, let me know and I can follow you back. If you enjoyed the show, then I would love a five star review on Apple podcast. It would mean so much to me and it's the best way to help me reach new subscribers. My name is Bob Gentle. Thanks again to Tom Mattsson for giving us his time this week and to you for listening. And I'll see you next week.


If you want to receive great value then you need to be a valuable person. Spending a little time each day trying to smooth out life's path for someone else, whether through connecting or any other way will compound up over time and return value back to you tenfold.

Today's podcast guest is Pablo Gonzalez. Pablo's whole world view and business philosophy can be easily summed by the Zig Zigler quote - 'You can have everything in life that you want - if you just help enough other people get what they want'.

About Pablo

Pablo Gonzalez is the inventor of the Relationship Flywheel, host of the Hief Executive Connector podcast and Not Your Average Investor Show, and Co-Founder of BeTheStage.live- a marketing clients that turns clients into community and community into record breaking profits.

He’s obsessed with human connection, and he’s used his expertise to manage a 120 person, $15M construction business at 25, build various young professional groups for charities, and be named a Latino Leader of the Future by Latino Leaders Magazine and a Top 20 Under 40 for Brickell Magazine in Miami.

Pablo's website : https://connectwithpablo.com/

Thanks for listening!

It means a lot to me and to the guests. If you enjoyed listening then please do take a second to rate the show on iTunes.  Every podcaster will tell you that iTunes reviews drive listeners to our shows so please let me know what you thought and make sure you subscribe using your favourite player using the links below.

Automatic Audio Transcription

If you want to attract great value, then you need to be a valuable person, spending a little time each day trying to smooth out life's path for someone else, whether through connecting or some other way, will compound up over time and return value back to you tenfold. Today's guest is Pablo Gonzalez. Pablo's whole world view and business philosophy can easily be summed up by the Zig Ziegler quote You can have anything you want in life if you just help another people get what they want.

Before I jump into the interview, I want to share a couple of things. The first one is that the podcast has had a small name change. It was the digital marketing entrepreneurship, which never really quite sat right with me because the podcasts never really been about that. It's now the personal brand entrepreneurship. And I think that's really what's at the heart of the show. Ordinary people playing bigger. Now, it's not a big deal for anybody, but it's a big deal for me.

I'm really pleased with the name change. It really makes everything much clearer for me about what this podcast about hope you will agree that ordinary people playing bigger is a great thing. Secondly, I want to start bringing in some audience participation. I want to bring you into the show. I want your questions and your comments. So if you head over to any of the podcast pages on my website, or you can just hit the questions link in the show notes, you can go to my website and record a question for me right there on the page.

So simple. If you do, I will maybe play your question on the show and the guests and I will start discussing some of them. I love this idea and I would be thrilled if you recorded something for me, but keep it clean. Well, you don't have to keep it clean, but it makes it easy for me. It's one less click. I don't have to click the explicit box. So hi there. And welcome back to Amplify the personal brand entrepreneur show.

I'm Bob Gentle and every week I'm joined by amazing people who share what makes their business work. If you're new to the show, take a second right now to subscribe. That way you won't miss new episodes and you can grab some older ones when you're done with this one. Don't forget as well, you can join my Facebook community, just visit, amplify me forward, slash insiders, and you'll be taken right there. Now, we all know how hard it is to juggle all the things in your business accounts, meetings, a never ending inbox.

That's why, again, I've teamed up with a group Pulse to give you five hours back every week. When it comes to managing your social media marketing, there's no complicated Excel docs. Long emails or millions of open-top simply manage all your social media channels in one place. Go to social dott. I got a pulse dot com forward amplify and you will get two months free. Now all you have to do is figure out how to spend those spare five hours.

And I tell you I'm using it now and I honestly cry a little bit when I think of all the time I have been wasting.

It's such a time saver. So welcome along and let's meet people. So this week I'm really excited to welcome Pablo Gonzalez to the show. Pablo is like the alter ego of pop, which he'll be discovered quite soon. So, Pablo, for people who don't know you, why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are, where you are? I'm already jealous and what you do next, Bob.

I love this. I love that we identified that we are each other's alter ego, yet we completely are down the same vein, just opposite sides of the coin.

And I think it's wonderful. Man Bob, I'm in I'm in Florida.

Right? I know that. I know that it's your favourite place. I'm in Jacksonville, Florida. That's the northeast part. Like, right before you get to Georgia. I grew up in Miami. I'm a typical Miamian. And what is it? What do I do, Bob? I'm I'm obsessed with human relationships.

And right now, I believe that we have the ability to have more relationships than we've ever had before.

And by that, I mean, you've probably wished somebody a happy birthday that you haven't seen in twenty years in the last couple of weeks. And that has never been an option. And it's because of these digital mediums that we have to create relationships, and I think the world has really gotten used to that idea from a personal standpoint, but business hasn't caught up. I think our culture on a personal level is digital and our business culture is still lagging behind.

And it's old school. And I fundamentally believe that most businesses are relationship businesses.

So if you're not thinking about this as a way to growth, how you scale your relationships based on these new digital mediums, then you're simply being inefficient or ineffective in the vision that you were painting for your business's future. So if you were to ask me what I do, I'm in marketing, right?

Like I design and execute content creation plans that allow businesses to scale their relationships and lead to business growth.

But I really am obsessed with this idea of scaling relationships and and moving towards this future where we are rapidly automating.

Right. Like we are rapidly becoming this like society where I can tell you how much I love your glasses. And in 45 minutes, there's going to be a Facebook ad that is selling me glasses that look like what you're wearing. That's only going to get that's only going to get bigger. Right. Like that's only going to get better or worse.

However, you however you want to see that. And the only way that you were going to solve for Chern that you're going to keep clients engaged with you, keep your employees inside of your company, that you're going to keep people in your circle when they're going to have unlimited options for whatever they want and they're going to be offered to them immediately. The moment that they care about it is by leaning into relationships and creating a community around you, because you can switch products, you can switch service providers, but, you know, you don't switch friends as easily.

I think what's really interesting, listening to you and there's a couple of places I could go with that is different businesses discover opportunity in different ways. And a lot of the people I speak to, in fact, I'll rewind a little bit opportunity can come to us through one of four main paths. It comes as a result of our advertising activities. No matter how you do it, people see your ads, they go. That looks kind of cool. He looks kind of cool.

She looks kind of cool. I'm going to I'm going to connect there. Or they can come because they've discovered some of your content somewhere. Or they can come because you jumped out in front of them, said, this is who I am. This is what I do, outbound sales activity. Or they can come through referrals from your network. And what's often surprised me, because this is the digital marketing entrepreneurs who I speak to, a lot of people who run their businesses predominantly online.

So consultants, coaches, people like that, people that you would think the majority of their business comes through ads or content creation when actually a lot of their real opportunity comes through relationships. And I guess where I'm going with this is what I found across the board is most businesses, they have a mix of those four, but a lot of those, they have systems for their systems, for their active systems, for content creation, their systems for outbound sales activity.

But they don't have systems for relationships. And what you said about most businesses are still looking at this in a very old school way is a lot of the time because the systems available still look at it in an old school way. And what I mean by that is CRM systems. Most CRM systems look at people as data points and opportunities rather than relationships. And I remember looking back and this is a very long winded bit of content from me, I don't talk that much on the podcast, but most of my business used to come through referrals.

Still does, kind of. And you take the average person we know, people like you and I, business acquaintances, we probably have a couple of thousand. The average person in the average business, probably 800. How do you keep track of 800 relationships in a meaningful way if you don't have a system? So I'm keen on your reflection on that. From a systems perspective, how do you maintain and nurture relationships across that diverse I contact base?

Yeah, Bob, I think you're I think you're dead on, man. So everything that I've learnt, you know what I said, marketing and marketer last. Right? Because I've just recently started just accepting the fact that I'm in marketing these days. Everything that I've learnt and everything that I'm executing on comes from lessons learnt in creating volunteer groups for non-profit organisations and the lessons that I learnt in doing that. Is the fact that the most influential people in society, the most connected people in society are the people that serve on these non-profit boards, and they got there by being of service to other people, right?

By by being that person that takes a meeting understands what you're about, what your superpowers, they ask great questions. They listen, and then they go and say, who can I introduce you to that can enable you in your mission, in your journey? How can I add value to your life?

And that, Bob, you know, we talked about it right before the podcast, right, like I am an extreme extrovert, but you notice that I'm an extrovert that listens. That was a completely learnt behaviour for me. Right? I learnt that in my early 30s when I started getting into these groups of people and started realising that the way that you build relationships is isn't my up until I turned 30, my Ace Ventura shtick and being the funny guy in the room, it's how I can be the most valuable person in the room.


So so then I started looking around and thinking, what are the systems that these people, first of all, very, very easy to notice that the tangible benefit is the idea that when people are coming to you based on these warm referrals, based on these like really qualified recommendations, they are much easier to do business with.

Right. Like, at the end of the day, if we're looking at this from a business perspective, the reason why so much business comes from referrals is because that's the easiest clothes.

If somebody that you really trust is telling me that I need to go do business with Bob, then when I take a call with Bob, you know, I'm not I'm not in there with all these guards up and thinking about and do I really trust this guy to I like this guy.

Is it for me it's more like I get there and it's is it for me. Right. You're able to get over the the like and no part of it. Right. And and and that's what I started delineating.

So when you have a system for relationships, you know, it's one thing, it's one thing to keep track of what's going on. But it's another thing you got to think about how you can be adding value at scale.

And you and I have essentially come to the same conclusion that it's content. Right. Like, if you can if you can figure out a content strategy that allows you to be adding value to people, that's going to put you ahead of the pack right now if you take another step up. And it's not just what value you have to offer to people and you treat it as how can I be introducing people to each other at scale so that you're not just adding your own value, but you're adding the value of everybody in your network around you to everybody else in your network around you.

Then you're hitting this scaling tipping point of that value exchange.

And what I realised at one point is that it all has to do with the stage and how you use a stage. Right. Like the way that you take it from one to one to one to many comes from the leverage of using a stage because you need somewhere to go, one to many. And on top of that, the stage has this psychological effect on your brain, where if you're seeing somebody on stage and you're in the audience, you're automatically attributing extra value to it.

Right. And when I say a stage, I mean the physical stage in front of you at a conference, just like I mean a television, just like I mean, hey, if I've seen you show up enough times in my Instagram feed and it's your face talking to me, that screen also serves as a stage the same way that if I read your book for eight hours, that's a stage I'm consuming you as a stage. Right.

So it's just like understanding of the the value and the practical use of applying the psychology of the stage across as much as you can. And then it's really just about how do you figure out a way to understand the value of the people around you so that you can then communicate it at scale on these stages?

I love the answer. And it really leads me very neatly to my next question, which for a lot of people I think is quite difficult, that you do a thing, you do a thing for money that a lot of other people kind of do as well. And one of the barriers, when you come to write a book or people invite you to speak or you think, OK, I'm going to go in deep on Instagram or YouTube or any of these platforms or stages, who are you showing up as?

One of the things that I've sort of heard you speak about before and we spoke a little bit about before we were recording, was this concept of category design. Who are you showing up and how would you advise anybody who is at this point where they want to be clearly known as the guy who does the thing and the thing that they love most? Not one of the ten things they could do. How would you advise them to work through that?

I know for a lot of people, it's maybe easy. For a lot of people, it's really not. I think if you're going to write a book, for example, it's a big investment of time. If you going to be promoting this book, you're going to be known for this thing. So how do you decide what that's going to be?

I don't think it's easy for a lot of people. Right.

Like, I think this is a very human question. And, you know, we talked about this a little bit before the show. You're going to find that out through iteration. Like, you're going to find that out through feedback, you're going to find it out by showing up, communicating it, understanding how it lands.

Now, to me, the tactic of how you deliver it is just as important, right? Like like at some point, you know, you're going to have to spend some time trying to figure out what am I really, really good at that I love to do.

Then you're going to once you figure that out, you need to figure out how can I use this for service?

Like, how can I how can I use this super power for the benefit of other people? When it comes to my story?

I've always been good at making friends.

I've always been good at walking into a room and gathering people around me and being able to command attention.

It wasn't until I was in those rooms in the you know, in the non-profit boards that I got involved with that I started realising this isn't about me showing up into a room and showcasing my value. It's how can I start using this to serve other people? How can I how can I use this thing to make other people feel like a ball and that they can command attention? Right. So so that is the mindset shift that you have to go into is going into service.

And then from the category design standpoint, I would recommend somebody to focus on what is the problem that they're solving and not market themselves as a solution, but market themselves as the person that most cares about this problem and the better you get. So once you're going into that iteration mode of like, all right, this is what I love doing, this is how I want to go serve people with it, start don't start talking about like, hey, man, I want to be a speaker about this.

Be Hey man, I want to figure out how people can get over this problem.

I want to figure out how, you know, businesses can learn that being relationship driven is the long term solution. Right. Like, I want to figure out how to scale relationships. Not like I'm the relationship scaling guy, because the better you get at asking those questions and the better you get at defining that problem that you're trying to solve, the more people are going to assume that you have the best answer.

And the reason it works really, really well for a guy like me is because I've never been I've always call myself a world class opener and a mediocre closer right.

Like, I'm I'm great at opening the conversation. I'm not like I care so much about the relationship that I'm never trying to talk you into something that you don't want to auto select for yourself.

And if what you're phrasing it is, is this like code and listing mission, like it's, hey, Bob, do you care about people being able to make more relationships at scale? Yes. All right. Let's solve this thing together. Right. Like this is you know, what is what is the what is the problem here?

Like, how can we define this problem the best way possible?

And to me, that's that's at the heart of category design. Right. Like they say that, you know, Brand is about yourself, right? Like when you're branding yourself, you're just like thinking about like, how do I show up when you are when you're going to category design route? It's like, how do you identify the problem? It's really more about the customer when you go into category design. Right.

It's like how how how is this a problem for you? Let's ask the right question and then you can enrol people in a mission of trying to figure out how to find that answer. And you can be the guide.

I love that. I think identifying the problem seems really simple, but it can often take you in the wrong direction. And I think the compass needle really for me was to be the person that most cares about this problem. I love that because that's really what's going to attract people is, yeah, there's lots of people who will take my money. This guy really, really, really wants to help. That will shine like a beacon. I love that.

I think something that you mentioned a couple of times and I was building relationships at scale and really when when we're talking about the Internet, we're talking about content. And I'm curious to know, what's your content journey look like? What does that look like for you?

Are you asking me kind of how I got into content or you asking me what my, like, formula for building relationships at scale is?

I'm happy to give, but I guess cutting a lot of the flimflam out, really. We're talking about video content because video content, I guess, is the content that creates real connexion in a way that other content doesn't really. So I'm probably a good example. I'm a perfectionist and this is a real problem. It's a real barrier. So if something doesn't look perfect to me, I instinctively don't want to put it out. And that held me back for a long, long, long time.

Now I just have to accept done is better than perfect. But not everybody experiences the world like that. And I'm curious to know, when you're putting out content, what are your barriers as an extrovert? What what do you get anxious about from a content perspective, these kind of thing? Yeah, no, no, no.

Listen, man, these days I don't know. Not much, because I've been doing it for. For so long, I can't say I've been doing it for so long, I've been doing it so often, right. I had the same exact issues, right, Bob? Like like I think I don't think that that's an introvert extrovert thing.

I think we're I think we're conditioned to look at content, like we look at TV, like we look at press, like we look at all these different things that are a completely different context. And people think that when they put out a piece that they're going to put out that it's going to be this thing that they get judged by forever because they only get to do so many of these. But content really is an infinite source these days based on the distribution methods that we have.

So I really believe in this concept that I learnt from one of the one of my partners in business.

These guys called The Biz Brose, the two brothers called Lewis and Lewis that have an awesome content marketing agency that they focus on repurposing.

They came up with this concept called the minimum viable content. Right. Like what is what is the minimum viable thing that you can put out that allows you to put out your content without overthinking it and look at it as a feedback mechanism?


So they right now, they're doing this thing that I'm a part of that is they call it the 45 live man.

So you go if you tell yourself I'm going to go live on Facebook for the next 45 days in a row and I'm going to talk about the stuff that I just care about.

And again, approach it from a category standpoint. I approach it from caring about a problem that you want to speak about. And it works better. Right.

But like, if you if you just tell yourself I'm going to go live on Facebook a certain amount of days in a row, I've done it for 30, I've done it for 45 at a time that will provide you that iterate of state where no one, when you go live, you completely take away that friction of perfectionism.

Right. Like as long as you're going live, you know that somebody already saw it. You're letting that thing breathe. When you are in that perfectionist kind of headspace, you are really your own judge and jury. And you're not you're only going to grow so much. Right. Like like if you're not letting your stuff get feedback on it, then really you're you are falling victim to your own skillset, to your own opinions, and you're really, really limiting yourself once you're going live.

Now you're giving people the opportunity to tell you, I like it, I don't like it, I love it. What about this? Right.

So like I look at I look at content as a as a giant feedback mechanism, the same way that I look at networking a room.

Right. Like if I can if I can walk into a room of 100 people and talk to 25 people and those 25 people, I can say, oh, man, I'm thinking about doing this like, oh, well, that sounds cool. What about this? Right.

Like it is that's that same kind of like level of friction is to see yourself as speaking out, inviting feedback and then and then use that as a feedback mechanism. Right. So, like, if if you're going live, you know that it's already out there, you know, somebody's already probably saw it.

So what's the harm in pressing publish? Right. And at the end of the day, if you do it for thirty days in a row, 45 days in a row, 60 days in a row, whatever challenge you want to put yourself at, a couple of things are going to happen. No. One, you're going to rapidly iterate and find your voice right.

Like like practising speaking for three to six to ten minutes at a time.

You're going to notice that it's not that big of a deal, too. You're going to create this like huge library of things that you can now go back and pick the best ones and really perfect them. And then and then, you know, like decide what you're going to do with them.

And three, you know, you're you're going to create all of those opportunities for feedback, like you're going to be talking directly to your network. You're going to be in this. You know, I like to use Facebook for a man because I think that Facebook has this, like, perfect mixture of people that knew you twenty years ago that you went to high school with and people that just met you at a conference last week. Right. So if you start going live and you start seeing things that that what you're saying resonates from the person that everybody always knew you were to, the person of the one that just met you thinks that you are, man, then you're really threading the needle of your zone of genius.

So I don't know if I'm answering your question, but to be perfectly honest, man, you are.

And you are. And honestly, it doesn't even matter because it was really cool. I love the idea of I love it. I'm like super terrified of it. I'm not I used to be I used to get really intimidated by any kind of live streaming. But you're right, once you do it, you realise actually this is just so easy because you don't have to prepare. There's no editing. When you press the stock button, it's done. You walk away.

Yeah, but I'm tired and I can compare it to I can again write like I base all this stuff based on this, like, non-profit stuff that I did write. And like the first couple of times I walked into a happy hour networker panel event. I was kind of terrified. But by the time you show up to the same event for the fifth time, you know that there's. Two or three people that you're going to be able to walk in and say hi to, right, and you start and you start devaluing every single conversation as much as just the art and the process of conversation and growing relationships.

And the same thing is going to happen with content, man. Like at the end of the day, what's happening in our society is that our our communication context are the way that we normally communicate with people, is evolving into a new context, all when the printing press was created all along, when radio was created, along with when television was created. And right now we're attributing the same amount of value to a Facebook live as we do to publishing a book.

But the more you do it, the more you realise it's much more like that conversation at a networking event, like it's like conversation of like walking into a room and picking a conversation with someone. Yeah, man, you're going to have a couple of conversations where you feel like what? You feel stupid about it, or maybe you didn't say the right thing or or maybe you don't like the person that you spoke to.

But the more you realise that it's really just a number of like iteration of the journey through life of conversations that you have, the more you're going to realise, well, you know, man, for every conversation that I have with somebody I don't like, there's there's there's two or three conversations of people that I'm like pretty neutral on. And then there is two or three conversations with people.

I'm like, man, this person's awesome. I want to be their friend. I want to be in their circle. Right. So, like, the same thing's going to happen with content. And and the the key to it is to continue showing up and continue iterating. Right. Because if you if you are putting out one piece of content a month, then that one piece of content really, really matters in your head.

But if you're putting out one a day, then then you're able to just take it a little bit more casual, man. And whatever you said yesterday that you feel kind of like messed up about, you can just show up the next day and be like, hey, listen, man. So yesterday I did that, but really I'm rethinking it. I'm thinking this.

And you're already showing your growth on a day to day level. And whoever is following that journey and whoever sees it is able to is able to go back in and catalogue that.

And then you get into this like effect of like this is your journal, right?

Like, if you if you are able to man up, you know how how much I would kill to read my dad's journal at 40 years old. Like, it would be incredible. Right. So or when I look at, like, the loose times that I've journal man, like, I've got a couple of times where, like, I studied abroad and that's when I was like really journaling. And I go back and I read that stuff. I'm like, man, this is awesome.

Like, look at the things, look at who I was then look at who I am now. Look at the things that I still like about myself that still here and look at how much I've grown right. It is this just like living catalogue of lessons that you can learn from yourself and other people can learn from you. So just don't be selfish about it. Like be in a service mentality of even with my flaws, whoever sees this can learn from it.

And I think that that's the major enabler, is to just approach it from a from a place of service.

I think what I really like about that is something I found quite often. Is that something you felt you said that was almost inconsequential, can land in ways you never expected. And I've had people reflect back to me years after I said something to them. You know what? That was the most powerful thing anybody ever said to me. Totally. And I'm thinking, really? Really. And I found that particularly on clubhouse recently. Have you and I go live on clubhouse sort of every other week, I think.

And it's great fun. And every time we do, I get messages afterwards saying that was really powerful. But yeah, you can't you can't predict how your content is going to land with somebody. So there's a there's a lot of volume and volume there. Yeah.

Yeah. Listen, it's the most natural thing ever, Bob. Like, we all everybody everybody underestimates the stuff that they already know as the value to other people. Right. Like there is there's this quote by Ralph Waldo Emerson that I live my life by, which is in my walks. Every man I meet is in some way my superior. And in that I can learn from them. Right. So everybody's walked a unique journey. Like, no matter you and I are very similarly aligned in the industry that we're in and the way we think about it.

But our approach to it is clearly marked by our two different paths that we've got to get there in. And no matter no matter what it is, you have some insight.

And I mean, you have a ton of insight, right? Like, I'm immediately fascinated when I met you and, like, trying to deconstruct that.

But like, everybody, everybody everybody has everybody has some unique perspective, experience, you know, something that they've worked harder on that they've that they've thought about longer on that they've, you know, haven't thought about it. Also, they ask the dumb question that you just, like, assumed that you shouldn't ask.

But everybody has some little bit of value that that is useful to somebody else. Right. And it's it seems really easy to accept that about everybody else. But you got to accept that about yourself to write like my my first my first foray into content was making my networking. You know, speaking point's right, I, I originally called him my networking superchargers, and within him are some really, like, high level stuff about how I purposefully will go to the same restaurant for like six weeks.


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Geoff's website : https://geoffkullman.com/

Thanks for listening!

It means a lot to me and to the guests. If you enjoyed listening then please do take a second to rate the show on iTunes.  Every podcaster will tell you that iTunes reviews drive listeners to our shows so please let me know what you thought and make sure you subscribe using your favourite player using the links below.


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Twitter: This week my guest is Kim Doyal and she's going to share her business journey, her radical changes and the power of consistent connection through consistent email.

About Kim

Kim Doyal, formerly known as, “The WordPress Chick”, is an entrepreneur, coach, speaker, podcaster and content strategist. She is the co-founder of the Content Creators Planner and has built her lifestyle business using WordPress, podcasting, creating content, and a commitment to “JustShowUP.”

Kim's website : https://kimdoyal.com

Thanks for listening!

It means a lot to me and to the guests. If you enjoyed listening then please do take a second to rate the show on iTunes.  Every podcaster will tell you that iTunes reviews drive listeners to our shows so please let me know what you thought and make sure you subscribe using your favourite player using the links below.


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Thanks for listening!

It means a lot to me and to the guests. If you enjoyed listening then please do take a second to rate the show on iTunes.  Every podcaster will tell you that iTunes reviews drive listeners to our shows so please let me know what you thought and make sure you subscribe using your favourite player using the links below.


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Krista's website : https://www.authenticaudience.co/

Thanks for listening!

It means a lot to me and to the guests. If you enjoyed listening then please do take a second to rate the show on iTunes.  Every podcaster will tell you that iTunes reviews drive listeners to our shows so please let me know what you thought and make sure you subscribe using your favourite player using the links below.


You’ve probably heard this before.  Your brand is what other people say about you when you’re not in the room.  But what does this actually mean? Do people talk about you when you’re not in the room?  No - there’s your first problem.

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About Danait

Danait is the founder and lead strategist of The Asmara Agency. TAA is an award-winning full-service agency that helps brands craft compelling business, brand, and messaging strategies that position them for massive success. She is passionate about helping entrepreneurs who want to leave an imprint on the universe do just that by helping them build brands that matter from the inside out.  

Danait's Website : https://theasmaraagency.com/

Thanks for listening!

It means a lot to me and to the guests. If you enjoyed listening then please do take a second to rate the show on iTunes.  Every podcaster will tell you that iTunes reviews drive listeners to our shows so please let me know what you thought and make sure you subscribe using your favourite player using the links below.

Automatic Audio Transcription

You've probably heard this before, that your brand is what other people say about you when you're not in the room. But what does this actually mean? And do people talk about you when you're not in the room? No. Well, there's your first problem, cultivating a strong personal or corporate brand. There's a lot of people scratching their heads. It needs clear intention and some consistent practises. But where do you start? Like any complex journey, starting with a map and a guide is a great idea.

And this week, my guest is Danait Berhe and she's going to walk us through her business and how she helps her clients start to dominate the branding landscape. Hi there. And welcome back to Amplify the Digital Marketing Entrepreneur podcast. I'm Bob Gentle. And every week I'm joined by amazing people who share what makes their business work. So if you're new to the show, take a second right now to subscribe so you don't miss new episodes and you can grab some older ones when you're done with this one.

Don't forget as well, you can join my Facebook community, just visit, amplify me, dot form forward slash insiders. So welcome along. And let's meet tonight. So this week, my guest is tonight by tonight, there's so much I could talk about with you and I'm really glad that you're here because we're going to be talking about lots of things I'm really, really into. But why don't you start just by telling us a little bit about who you are, where you are and what you do.

Thank you so much for having me, Bob. I'm really excited to be here as well. I am tonight party and I am a brand strategist working out of Buffalo, New York. And I work with brands, entrepreneurs, visionaries to help them build a brand from a place of vision and values so that they can serve fully and they can profit fully as well.

So one of the reasons I'm really keen to speak to you and anybody listening will kind of relate to this when I explain it. I come across businesses every single day and I take business A and business B, and you think, what's the difference? I have no idea. You're not telling me. If I ask you, are you the same as that guy, you'll go, no, no, no, no, no. I'm completely different from them.

If I ask that guy. No, no. We're completely different from them. How do I know this? And this is really where the brand strategy comes in and lots of people know this in their head, but they never see it in the world. So many businesses say we've got a brand, but what they have is a logo, maybe a colour scheme, but they don't have is a brand. So sort of extrapolating that out, how do you work with clients to take them from nondescript, samey, samey, samey through to oh my God, I really get what you do and I love it.

Yeah, that's such a great question. And you are right on the nose when you say that a lot of people say they have a brand, but it really means that they have a logo, a colour palette, some fonts that they've picked out. And for me, that's really the last part of the process. And I think about it from the place of these fees, as I call it, and really how I take my clients through that process to get them to a place where they are different, where they know what makes them different, where their brand can.

No one needs to ask them if they're different. People just know that they are because of the brand that they're building. And the fees that I take them through are the core, which is the vision, the mission. Why is it that you're doing what you're doing? What's the big idea here? And we always have to start there and then we move into clients really understanding our clients on that really deep level where we know them emotionally, mentally, we understand what they're thinking, what their problems are, what their what their current situation is, and how we can solve those challenges that they're facing.

Then we move in to contrast, which is figuring out their differentiation strategy, you know, taking a look at the marketplace and seeing what's out there and what's available and then from there being able to figure out, OK, where do you fit and where is your that kind of like that. If you've ever read the ocean strategy, really figuring out where that is for you. And then we move into communication, understanding how we communicate, what is our messaging, what is the stories we need to be sharing?

How do we need to really start to put together this messaging strategy that brings together the vision that they have, the clients they want to serve and what makes them different? And then we move into conversion, which is figuring out now how does that tangibly get implemented into the business? Because that's where people really struggle is. They're like, OK, I get the big picture, I get the messaging, I get the clients. How do I now turn that into marketing?

That actually gets me results and then laughs is creative, which is then when you start to actually turn all of those pieces into colours, fonts and logos, and when we come at it from that place, that's really that's really where we're able to create that really cohesive brand strategy and brand. I love that.

And anybody listening to this thinking, wow, that's quite a journey. How do you keep that all in her head? There is an amazing framework diagram on your website, which really the fact that it's even there is pretty generous because people like me look at that and go, that's a really useful framework. And it's well worth having a look at its website because it really embodies everything that you're talking about when you visit your website. It's a really good example of a well branded, well positioned website where you know how this business is different.

So when somebody comes to you, what's led to that? And I guess what I mean by that is they must have reached a point where they know they can't just hire another designer, that they don't need a marketing agency. They need somebody to specifically help them with. Messaging really is at the heart of all of this is what are you showing up and saying and how are you saying it in terms of how you conduct yourself, in terms of the visuals?

But it really is the signals that you're sending out into the world. What's happened when somebody decided, you know what, I need to do this now?

Yeah. So usually people are in that space. When they've tried to piecemeal and cobble together a strategy by going to, you know, this course or this thing or this article and this framework, and they're trying to take all of those things and make them fit into what's in their head. And that usually doesn't work because you have to. It's actually the opposite. You have to start with. I always tell people to figure out what it is that you want and then go and find the resources for the thing that you want.

And that's not how we operate. Usually as small businesses, as entrepreneurs, we're usually just compiling a bunch of knowledge and information and then trying to make that make sense and fit into our brand in some way when instead it should be the other way around. Right. So usually that's when people are reaching out to me is when they've tried all the things they're tired of constantly having to rebrand. And by rebrand, I mean, they're just changing fonts and colours and logos.

They are really feeling that frustration of not connecting with the right types of people. And they're like, why is this continuously happening? Why is it that the people who come to work with me, I am always not having a good they're not having a good experience. I'm not having a good experience what's happening here? And so they're really looking to work backwards now and start from the place of their vision and what they want to do and then find strategies and find tools and find resources that will actually fit into that vision.

So that's really interesting because the vision is really what's at the heart of this. And you take to people who do exactly the same thing. Let's pick a random example of a chiropractor. They're doing exactly the same thing, but their brains could be potentially completely different because of the vision. So I guess if you had to chiropractors come to you, how might their journeys differ? I know it's a bit of a weird question, but do you understand where I'm going?

Yeah, I think their journeys might differ in terms of. Yeah, exactly what you said, the vision and what they're trying to build. So to kind of keep using that example and expanding on it a little bit, one person might want to build a very, very small practise where they're not looking to make it into this big, you know, multi location place. They just want to keep their one location. They want to serve their clients really, really well.

And they want to have a small team of really great people who help them to deliver that service in a way that fits their lifestyle. They're really trying to build a business that allows them to have time and time, freedom and take vacations often and with their family. And so that vision is very different from what the other person wants to go and have multiple locations, a large staff, and they want to, over time, really removed from themselves from actually doing the work of being the chiropractor and have a team of people who are doing that for them.

And they just want to drive the vision and the big goals for the company. And those two visions are very different. They will mean that you will build your brand very differently. The messaging will be different because one is going to lean more on the fact that they have this large network of highly specialised chiropractors that work with them. Right. And so that for clients, people who are looking for that type of support are going to want to work with that particular chiropractor, whereas the other person on the other end, their messaging might be very geared towards, hey, we are a small practise.

We're going to it's going to be me personally taking care of you. And if you want that level of personalised service and connexion with the person who owns the business, you're going to want to go to a chiropractor that in practise that works in that way. And then the strategies for marketing, for communicating that, for building the visuals will be very different because you're coming at it from a very unique and different place and as well as the business model.

So maybe the larger chiropractor will want to partner with hospitals and things of that nature, whereas the other person might partner with local local studios and and fitness places that they can work in tandem with to serve those customers and those clients. And so, as you can see, starting from that vision is so key because then we have two very different tracks that we're walking. And so and it helps you to make better decisions as a business owner when you know that vision as well.

So I really, really got that. And that makes a lot of sense. So in terms of your practise, how often are you working with, like a corporate strategy is over? On the other end of the spectrum, I guess, is a personal brand strategy.

So it tends to be kind of in the middle. Around 60 percent of my clients are small businesses and, you know, people who are just getting started or are just starting. To build a team and around 40 percent are larger companies that have a team that have large, larger infrastructures and such, and so that's kind of the breakdown.

If that was if that was what you're asking, it kind of is, I think, a lot of personal brand businesses. They often do have a bit of infrastructure behind them. I guess what my question was maybe leading towards was the whole we versus me question when when you're talking about an organisation's voice or a business's voice, that especially in the sort of expert business space and a lot of expert businesses, they have an expert, but they have a team of people supporting them.

But culturally, we're quite well attuned to the corporate way rather than the central eye. So how often does that come up for you?

Yeah, so that's a great question for a lot of the expert businesses. That tends to come up a lot. That's a big question that they have, is, hey, how do I keep the brand, you know, personal? How do I make it so that it is my personal brand with my voice and I am the face of the company. But I also have this team. How do I convey that messaging? How do I convey that there's a wee while also keeping that identity of having that personal brand and that comes up that comes up quite a bit because it is an interesting dynamic because a lot of times expert businesses have built up that trust with their with their clients, their customers, their community from that personal one to one relationship.

And as they grow and expand, it becomes very, very interesting on how you can meld the two together. And I always like to remind people that even with a personal brand, your brand isn't you, the person. And I think that really helps people open up their eyes to seeing their their personal brand even as as a as a business and as a as a separate entity from themselves, because I think that question comes up because they are so intertwined and they feel that, you know, my brand is me and I am the brand.

And I always like to remind them that that's not the case at all, that the brand has certain you are sharing certain elements of yourself with your clients and customers in regards to what it is that you do in regards to what it is that you you help them with, but you are not the brand. And that helps people to really make that decision. Either decision is not wrong. You can still use the eye and continue to drive the business that way, even though you have a team or you can move into that we and start using that type of language.

And it helps people to kind of make that decision in terms of which direction they want to take that in.

So that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I need to spend a little bit of time thinking about that because there's a lot in there to unpack. And something I'm curious to ask you is I spent a lot of business owners every day. And something that I hear quite often is people don't seem to get me or people maybe have a fixed idea of the box that I'm supposed to be in. People evolve. People change over time. People's vision changes over time.

But people within your sphere of influence, so to speak, are quite accustomed to being the guy who does that thing. But you want to change. You want to move towards your vision. So if people are feeling that like their brand is stuck, what are some simple things? Because suddenly everyone in the world cannot hire tonight. Pretty wonderful if they could and lots of people probably will, but most can't. So in terms of self-help, what should people be looking at in terms of if you want to make more sense to your audience, if you want your vision to really come full circle through the clients that you're speaking to, the communications that you're putting out, the conversion strategy, the I guess the question I'm looking for is what are some simple tweaks anybody could make?

And I love that. So I have two recommendations for two different groups of people. So I'll start with the people who feel like their brand is stuck and they are trying to move in a different direction or they're trying to make a pivot and they feel like, well, everybody already knows me for this. And I'm not really sure how to start transitioning into this new space or even just making a small pivot in terms of the offerings or the things that they're they're putting out there.

For that. I always say people in our heads, we see things in these like very we see things in extremes all of the time. And so most of the time I'll say and what I always tell people who are in that space of wanting to pivot and change is what are the similarities? Where are things not changing? Where is the message not changing, having offers shift, having, you know, the things that you. You or the things you provide or the information that you're going to be putting out in terms of your content, those things will of course shift and people anticipate that.

But what parts of your brand are staying the same? And you find that there's a lot of points of similarity. And you also want to do that with your customers to thinking about your ideal clients and saying where are the points of connexion between the people I used to serve and the people I want to serve? Where are those similarities? And that's how you start to shift. And transition doesn't need to be this huge because a lot of people are nervous about that.

And I get that question a lot where they're like, I don't want to make it a big deal and do like this huge announcement. I just kind of want to slowly transition into this new space. And I always tell them, start with looking at your clients and seeing what was true before and what's still true now of the people you want to work with. What are the what are the characteristics, the personalities, the the challenges that are similar and start there and slowly.

And then while you're talking about those those things, you're going to start implementing some of the new messaging, some of the new things that you want to be telling them, some of the new stories that you want to be putting out there that aligns more with the new direction. And what happens when you do that is it's in an organic shift. And once you start to put out new offers, it becomes a thing where people are like, oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

You've been talking a lot about that over the last few months, and that makes so much sense as to how that makes so much sense as to this new service that you're putting out. So that's what I would say for those people and then for everyone, really, when you're thinking about your brand and how you can make some small tweaks, I always say start with story, because that's the easiest, most simplest way. Without getting caught up in, you know, the data, the analytics and diving deep into, you know, all sorts of research is to start with stories.

And I think it start with what is the core message that you want people to walk away with from your brand? Is it that you want people to have more time freedom? Is it that you want people to be more adept at their marketing? What is the the the core message that you want to get out there and then list out a bunch of stories that you can share or client? They can be client stories. They can be your stories that reinforce that core message, that share that idea, that concept that you're trying to to pass on to them.

And I think when you start there, it becomes very easy to start to see how your message can translate into actual content and all these other avenues. And then you start to see, oh, I could do a graphic that shows this framework. I can I can turn this into an offer. And that's where that happens. I always like to tell people to start with story because I think we we already have so many of those stories. We already have so many of those ideas.

And if you can start with what is your core message, write that down and then list out stories that you can share that reinforce that core message and start putting those out there.

That's really, really good advice. And I think the reason there are lots of reasons, it's good advice, but a lot of businesses actually don't tell any stories at all. So the day you start showing up, telling stories is the people the day people start sitting around listening, really it's a clear opportunity to change what's in the unconscious of the audience. That makes perfect sense. Stories are really going to be our fundamental way of communicating. Any idea.

So, yeah, that's really, really useful. So another question I guess, that comes out of that is a lot of what you were discussing was you need to be communicating, whether it's stories, asking questions. You need to be expressing yourself in some place in order for people to listen and to to read these new signals that you're sending out. So we're kind of limited in the number of ways we can do it. There's a whole spectrum of places you can do it through from writing a book, through public speaking, through social media, blogging, video content.

But one of the challenges I often have is especially when it's an organisation that isn't accustomed to content of any kind, is they hyper focus on every single piece of content, wanting the recipient of that content to take a full 360 degree comprehension of their organisation and its completeness from that one piece of content, which is wholly unrealistic but completely understandable. I'm often encouraging people to think about content and content marketing as the individual stitches in a tapestry to create an impression over time.

And they usually get that, but they still want every single piece of content to be everything for everyone. What I love about your framework is that it gives you the map and a compass to create content. Content is not just going to do the sort of cliched educate, inspire and entertain, because that's frankly quite easy. It's how is it going to serve your. Based on your vision, so I love that I'm trying to work out what my question actually is, it's how do you encourage people to move from probably marginal to none in terms of content creation to effective minimum viable?

Those are the people who come to you already in the sort of medium content creator space.

So some people, because they're struggling with their message and they're not really sure what they're trying to say. A lot of times most people aren't even sharing. They're just sporadically putting things out there because you're overthinking it, right? You're sitting there and you're like, OK, well, this like you said. Exactly. It's well, this encompass everything about my brand. Well, this one piece of content be the thing that tells everyone what I do, who I serve, our vision, all of these things in one place and what I've come to see from people who are really, really good at content creation and are really good at consistently showing up is to think about it from this perspective of I like to watch thought leaders because I think that they do a great job of that tapestry that you talked about, weaving in different elements of what it is that they are trying to show us about a particular topic in in very unique and bite sized bite sized ways.

And I think that that's the key, is that needs to be it needs to be bite size. That needs to be these little glimpses into your brand that people can really start to start to piece together through all of the things that you're putting out. And usually I tell people that if you are building any sort of business where you are an expert and you are wanting to convey some sort of information, provide a service is to think about content from these three things.

You should always be helping your clients to shift there, especially if you want to be a thought leader and their identity, their thoughts and their actions. And when you can think about content from that perspective of that's the end goal is I want someone to think differently about marketing. So I'm going to write one piece of content that helps them think differently about their marketing. I want someone to take the action of reaching out to me. So I'm going to write this piece of content with that end goal in mind, or I want someone to think differently about what?

For me, it's I want people to see themselves as a very successful entrepreneur, someone who is building a brand, not just a business with transactions. Right. And so if that's the end goal of that piece of content, that's what I'm going to write about from that perspective. And that helps you pare down so much of what you're trying to write. And it makes it so much easier to just go out there and put one piece out with those.

I find that those three things are what we're essentially helping people do as entrepreneurs, as business owners, as people providing a valuable service to other people. When you can think about it from that perspective, it helps you to not feel so overwhelmed and not feel like you're content. Each content piece has to do everything. It just needs to do one thing.

I love that that makes a lot of sense. And yeah, when you put it like that, that's really all you need to do. I mean, at times is all you need to do. It's quite a lot, but it's a simple task. Every single, every single piece of content has a simple task to do. Yeah, I really like that. Yeah. So I guess what I'd like to understand a little bit is what your own practise looks like when somebody comes knocking on tonight's door and says I need some help.

What does an engagement look like from you? And I'm guessing it's quite structured or organised because your framework is structured and organised. Your websites are amazing. So what does a customer engagement look like from you in terms of a process?

Thank you so much for for saying that. I really appreciate that. And when someone comes to work with me, I really try to understand where they're at and what they're really struggling with. And usually most of my clients work with me in the capacity of their brand strategy and then helping them translate that into their brand touch points, which is what people traditionally think of when they think of branding as all the touch points and the visual elements that we see within a brand.

But that is a full day for the brand strategy is a full day, immersive day that we spend together. And it's really just a place for the person I'm working with to to live in that space of vision, too. I kind of just create a container for them to be the visionary of their business for the day. And I want to hear all of the things all of because I'm a strong and firm believer in the fact that you started a business because you are passionate about doing what it is that you do.

You're passionate about serving people and it's all inside. It just gets all jumbled up when you're trying to do all the things and learn everything and and and and try to build this business while also trying to. Stay the visionary, and that doesn't always work really well in the day to day, right? So they get to just be in that visionary space. They get to share and we go through the through the out the day we go through those six pillars and talk about each one.

I have a lot of questions that I ask and it's kind of like this conversation that we're having and a lot of people feel like, oh, I didn't realise that we were working through this very strategic process. They know that that's what we're going to do because I tell them that and they know that from my website. But when we're in it, they just feel like they're having this conversation with me for the entire day. And then I turn around and turn that into a pretty comprehensive brand strategy compass.

And that is usually 50 plus pages in total. And it's essentially supposed to be. Yeah, it's that it's pretty it's it's pretty intense, but it's supposed to be that document that you pull off the shelf constantly to say, this is our North Star, this is where we're going. This is the core of our messaging. These are the stories we want to be sharing. These are these are the people that we're serving. It is a living document.

So I always tell people, as your vision evolves, as you change, as you grow, you want to continue updating this document. But it becomes kind of the blueprint for how they're going to build their business. And and then we can take that and then turn it into the full experience of the brand. And so that's typically what it looks like when when I work with clients in that capacity.

So I'm going to ask you an awkward question. And it's have you ever had anyone come in that's just super arrogant and doesn't want to go down your process? They're just just an arsehole.

Yes, I have. How do you deal with that?

So I have over the years have built up a process that allows me to really weed out those people before we get into that process. And I'm very upfront and clear when I am meeting with people that I am a strategic partner.

I'm not someone who's just going to say yes to all of your ideas or or just kind of be taking down notes. And that's all I'm doing. I'm going to push you. I'm going to challenge you. I'm going to ask you hard questions. And because sometimes there's things that I'm like, well, this doesn't make sense for your brand. What you need to explain to me why you think that it makes sense. And so I am pretty clear about that with clients up front so that they know that it's not just a relationship where they're going to be creating these to do lists and and sending them off to get them checked off a list.

I am really coming in as a as a partner and a strategist help them.

And so I've gotten pretty good about not getting those types of clients anymore.

But when I do have that kind of pushback, we have that conversation in the moment where they hey, I'm here to make sure that you have a very strategic path forward. And I want to be able to help you and to serve you in this capacity. But I need you to kind of work with me in this process. And a lot of times, because my process is so laid out, people who are just looking for a quick fix, looking for just, you know, that someone is just going to like, you know, solve all things or just go do it for them.

And then they're going to they're going to show up and be like great things and move on. They tend to not they tend not to come work with me. So I think that's that's how I how I have how I have dealt with that so far.

That makes sense. So what is your favourite customer look like? What's an ideal tonight by a customer look like?

I really love working with people who know that they have a strong vision. They know deep down that that they are wanting to build something bigger than themselves that they want to build are not just a business, but a brand that allows them to have impact in the true sense of the word and not the the way that we're always throwing that one around, but really want to make a difference in the lives of people that they're working with. And there's someone who's been in business for a little bit so that they know, you know, hey, I know what kinds of things I know what kinds of things I want to offer.

I know the types of clients I want to work with. I just can't seem to make sense of it all. And usually those clients are the best clients because they're so open to having these types of conversations. They're really hungry for that deeper conversation around their messaging and their positioning. And they they are wanting someone to just kind of come and hold their hand and walk them through that process because they want to have those things so that they can be more intentional, they can be more strategic as they move forward.

So when I look around your ecosystem, so to speak, what I take from it is somebody who has a vision of their own that you kind of know where you want to go, that I'm going to risk the words. You probably treat yourself like your own client. You. We work hard, I'm I'm I'm steering away from the word high achiever, but I think you're probably a bit of a high achiever. But I'm really curious to know which part of your business do you look at and go, you know what I feel I'm struggling with?

I don't enjoy that.

That's a great question for me. I always struggle with back end operations because I am such a visionary and I am always wanting. I always have ideas. I always have. I'm like, oh, this would be great if we could do this and we could do that. And I always I live in that space. And so the like getting into the nitty gritty details of, you know, building things out and project management systems and things like that, the operations end of it has always been tough for me because that's not really where, even though in my past life I was a scientist.

And that's a lot of what you do is all technical type of things like that. But I would say that that's where I have the most uphill battle. Now, hang on a minute.

From scientist to brand strategist. How did I miss that? So you're going to have to take a moment.

Yes. OK, so I actually my education is in biochemistry and I was doing research and that in that space and really was thinking of continuing my education and going into into medical school and thought that that was going to be the way that I would. I always wanted to own my own business, and I I knew that I wanted to be an entrepreneur, but I thought it was going to be from a place of owning my own my own practise or something like that.

I didn't think it would be from this space of having this creative business. And so I was going to continue on that path and I realised I didn't want to do that. I was working in a hospital, I was doing research, and I was talking and interviewing a bunch of doctors and asking them what they like about their job. Do they feel that they're really making a difference in people's lives? And a lot of the answers I got were not encouraging at all.

And a lot of them were like, nope, it's just a bunch of paperwork. And I didn't feel inspired to continue down that path. And I always had this very creative, business minded side to my brain. And so I took a lot of marketing and economics courses when I was in college just because I was like, well, this will help me when I have my own practise. I'll learn all of these business things. And I was always very creatively inclined.

So even as a young girl, I was always creating brochures for people and it was just a hobby that I thought this was a fun, creative outlet. And when I came to that crossroads where I was like, OK, well, I don't want to continue doing research, like being a research scientist and I don't want to go to med school. I had been doing some of these, you know, marketing projects and websites and things for friends and and people that I knew with it who were starting businesses within my network.

And someone was like, you know, you could get paid to build people's websites and help them with their marketing and their brand. And I was like, that's a real job. I can do that. And so it started this journey of going down that route. And I immersed myself in understanding, branding, branding, strategy and communication strategy. And really having the opportunity to work with so many businesses on the creative side really helps me to become really adept at brand strategy, which requires a very creative and strategic mindset.

And you need to have that analytical side to be able to do a ton of research and see and collect data and then extrapolate what that data means. So my research scientist brain is really what helps me to be a really great brand strategist is because I can bring those two things together of seeing the creative, but also being able to use my research skills to be able to pull out all of the things that brand strategy requires for you to pull out.

I love that story. And I think what I loved most about it was you could hear the light of somebody who's found their vocation, which is actually a very rare thing to hear. So, yeah, thank you for that. And I think I love the way that you do what you do. It's quite unique. I really enjoyed browsing your website. It was a nice surprise. Yeah, I really appreciate that. I know it always surprises people when they hear that I was sat there like, wait, what?

How does that how does that work? But it and usually people think that there's no connexion between the two. But it's so interesting that that's actually one of the things that makes me good at my job is having that research scientist background.

Well, yeah, it really will, because the people who are most naturally drawn to the creative sector are the people who are often least analytic. And I think that's why your website, which I never talk about people's websites on a podcast, trust me, but yours really stood out because it expressed what you do so clearly.

Thank you. So today we're coming up towards the end of our time together, because I know you have stuff to do today. And with the time zones, I'm going to bed. You're going to work. That's fine. So I guess if people want to connect with you, if they want to go further with you, how would you like them to do that?

Yeah, you can come to my website, the Azmera Agency.com, where you can learn a little bit about my framework and see what Bob has been talking about. And also, I am heavily on Instagram, and that is my name tonight. And it B.G. and I love connecting with people over there. Whether you want to call me and ask questions or just say hello, I really love and appreciate that.

I will put links to both of those in the show notes and on the website. You can find them there tonight. I should ask you my drumroll signature question. What's one thing you do now that you wish you'd started five years ago?

I love that question. For me, it is hands down, without a doubt at my morning routine and not in the fluffy sense of the word where, you know, I'm like taking a spa day every morning. But I have found that I used to just jump up out of bed and, like, get to work or get to school or go to this. And I have found that having time in the morning where I don't look at my phone and not checking anything, and I am sitting with myself journaling, thinking through what I want my day to look like and just giving myself that time, whether it if I have time to have an hour or if it's just five minutes, I have found is one of the most powerful things for my productivity, my ability to just show up as my best self and and just be a better human every day.

I found that that's so powerful. And I wish I wish I had known about that and started doing something like that earlier on in my life.

That is a great answer tonight. Perhaps you have been an awesome guest. I've really enjoyed speaking to you. It's been lovely to meet you. Hopefully manage one day in person soon once the apocalypse is over. But thank you very much for your time.

Thank you so much for having me. This is such a pleasure.

Leaving your brand to chance will lead to you being overlooked. Strong brand or brands cultivated to align with the needs of their ideal customer attract more opportunity so big or small. Get intentional about being in control about what other people think about your business. Before I go, just a quick reminder to subscribe. And if you haven't joined my Facebook community, you'll find a link on the show or visit Amplify me dot com forward slash inciters. I would love for you to connect with me on social media.

Follow me wherever you hang out. You'll find me that Bob gentle just outside. And if you do message me, let me know so I can follow you back. If you enjoyed the show that I would love for you to review it on Apple podcasts. A five star review means so much to me and it's the very best way to help me reach more subscribers. My name is Bob Gentil. Thanks again tonight for giving us her time this week and to you for listening and see you next time.


Have you ever wondered why podcasters podcast? There are some very good reasons, which if you understood them might leave you wondering why you left it so long.  

This week my podcast guest is Stacy Harris, owner of Uncommonly More, a podcast production company focusing on personal brand business owners who know exactly where the value in a podcast is to be found - and she's going to break it down right here, just for you.

Stacey's website : https://uncommonlymore.com/

Thanks for listening!

It means a lot to me and to the guests. If you enjoyed listening then please do take a second to rate the show on iTunes.  Every podcaster will tell you that iTunes reviews drive listeners to our shows so please let me know what you thought and make sure you subscribe using your favourite player using the links below.

Automatic Audio Transcription

Have you ever wondered why podcast was podcast? There are some very good reasons which, if you understood them, might leave you wondering why you left it for so long. This week, my guest is Stacy Harris, owner of Uncommonly More, a podcast production company focusing on personal brand business owners who know exactly where the value in podcasting is to be found. And she's going to break it down right here just for you. Hi there. And welcome back to Amplify the digital marketing entrepreneur.

I'm Bob Gentle, and every week I'm joined by amazing people who share what makes their business work. If your new take a second now to subscribe so you don't miss new episodes and you can grab some older ones when you're done with this one. Don't forget as well, you can join my Facebook community at Amplify Me Forward, Slash Insiders, and you'll be taken right there. So welcome along. And let's meet Stacey.

So this week, I'm thrilled to welcome Stacy Harris to the show, and if you don't know Stacy, you will in a moment, we are going to be talking about lots of stuff that I'm really looking forward to because it's an indulgence for me. I'm not going to lie. So, Stacy, welcome to the show. Why don't you start by introducing a little bit about who you are, where you are and the kind of work you do.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really I'm really excited. I always like getting to get in and chat with other podcasters. So it's an indulgence for me as well. I'm Stacy Harris. I own a production, a podcast production agency called Uncommonly More My Team.

And I help podcasters take the podcast production to Doo's off their list so that they can focus on using that content strategically to actually grow their business and see results, because funny enough, results rarely come from just focusing on growth, but often come on being more strategic about what kind of content is actually produced, how the content is produced, and how the podcast is actually targeted to the right listeners instead of just getting as many listeners as possible.

And so I spend all day, every day listening to podcasts and thinking about podcasts, which works out really well because my background, my degree is actually in audio engineering. I've been in business about ten years.

And so it's it's a lot of fun and I like that. And I have a great team supporting me in getting these shows out into the world. We produce about 40 hours a month right now of podcasts.

Wow is a really good time, is a lot of podcast. Luckily we produce shows.

I actually enjoy listening, like the kind of shows I like listening to. So it's helpful.

And you're in Irvine, California.

I am. I live in Orange County, California and Southern California. You're my second conversation in Irvine this week, like yesterday was. Yes, I was speaking to Neil Schaeffer yesterday and he's also in Irvine.

Mm hmm. You must be neighbors practically. So podcasting. Anybody who knows me knows podcasting has changed everything for me. I don't really share with my audience about what I do very often, but I remember before the podcasts, my business was really quite different. And a lot of people think when they listen to a podcast, it's just a gift to the world. They don't realize what you get from the podcast as a podcast. For me, the network that I've built for the podcast has been incredible.

What I've learned from every single guest has been the kind of education you couldn't get from any university. You honestly, you could not pay for it, even if you wanted it. Podcasting is ridiculously valuable as an activity, but I think you take it for your clients much, much further because it's also very time consuming enterprise. And I remember the day I stopped editing the podcast myself, I said, I think, what am I going to do with all this time?

So first off, like, I have so many places I could go in a conversation with you.

But I guess what I'd like to know first off is who is it that you work with predominantly? What does a typical client look like for you?

So first of all, at some point we must talk about the relief that is editing the podcast, even as somebody who has a background in editing. When I finally handed mine off to my team, which took much longer than I should probably tell people, but it is it's this epic like, oh, my gosh, this is how our clients feel.

Now, I get it like this is why they like us so much, because it is it is an epic relief. It's like it's like finding time just hidden somewhere. It's amazing. Or that feeling of putting on a winter coat and finding like twenty bucks in the pocket, you're like, oh wow, this is exciting.

But the kind of clients we work with are very much so building a podcast to share information, either their own information or and or the information from guests. But they're really looking to serve a very specific niche. They're really looking to serve a very specific group of people around something also fairly specific. So we work with a lot of podcasters who are coaches and consultants and really trying to teach and lead their audience is a perfect example of a show we produce.

Is a guest you had on your show, Tara Newman of The Bold Money Revolution.

We produce her podcast and that's a shining example of the podcasts we produce there, ones really built to encourage their listeners to do something, to create something for themselves. And that happens to also be a great way to work with Tara in a larger way. It happens to be a way that you can get to know her. So when she sits down and she says, hey, I think the best option for you might be this program or this opportunity, you know, like and trust that that opportunity is going to be the right opportunity for you.

And so that is probably the best example we can give is is really business owners who.

Are coming in and saying, let me show you how we can start getting clear on what your problem is, on where your frustrations lie and start giving you some early solutions, some early wins, so that when you're ready to take that next step, you know exactly who to take it with.

So something that I'm often asked and for me, I think I'm often asked about Arawa. And for me, the return on investment is lots of intangibles, as I kind of described a lot of that a moment ago. But a lot of people there, not when they're coming to podcasting, interested in the personal development side of it or the network side of it. They're more interested in it from a how can this make a contribution to my business in the short to medium term or even the long term?

They're looking at client growth and looking at deals. They're looking at the hard cash side of it. That's something I've been frankly terrible with. I've never pitched my audience anything and I'm OK with that. But a lot of people aren't. So how do you work with your clients sort of beyond the podcast production, more into the podcast strategy, how they how they fold that into the business.

And first, I want to say the short term cash wins are very likely not going to happen. The the best cash wins are going to be long term. I, I highly, highly, highly recommend recognizing the intangible winds. You know, one of the intangible wins that really helps your business's bottom line is you create really shareable content. You create something that's really easy for me to text a friend and say, hey, listen to this, and that's an intangible win that's not generating cash in the bank on episode three, but is absolutely impactful and helpful to your business.

But we do we we look at content and podcasting very strategically. What is the purpose of releasing this episode? And we do that not only for the business and the podcasters, the growth financially, but also that's how we get the audience real value. That's how we serve the people listening is we know why we're releasing that episode. I talk to podcasters a lot and I say, hey, you know, why did you put out this episode last week?

And they said, well, because it was Tuesday. And on Tuesdays we release a podcast. And that's not the right answer.

The right answer is because I know that we've got X, Y, Z program coming up and we want to make sure that that program is easily identified as the right fit for our audience.

So we're making sure that on our podcast content, we're answering the questions they would have before purchasing that program. Like, is this really the problem I'm facing? Is this really my frustration? Can I figure out how to solve it? Whatever those questions might be? I'm not just talking about, like, is there a payment plan, but really earning the trust of the people who are going to be buying that program, leading them on a journey to their solution?

And I think that so often we get caught up in and this happens a lot when you when you get stuck in that to do list, you get so caught up in the production of your show and just getting another episode out because you committed to a weekly podcast that you forget the strategy side of it. And so we talk a lot about where we're trying to get people. I always, always, always ask my clients the same three questions. What are we selling?

Who are we selling it to and how are we selling it to them? And that how could be I need to get them on a one hour sales call because what we're selling them is high end mastermind the twelve months long and who were selling is six, nearly seven figure business leaders. Those are the potential clients like. Great. So we need to give them the information that helps them identify that you're the person they want to be on a call with to get their support for 20, 21 or 22 or whatever the year may be.

And those three questions, if you can't answer those in regards to your episode, if the the episodes you're putting out does not reflect the answers to those three questions, it's not an episode worth putting out. We think of episodes as assets. How will this be an asset to the business? How will this be an asset to the listener?

That makes perfect sense. I guess on a more practical level, if you are selling, say, a mastermind or you're selling a coaching program or or even, of course, a lot of podcast episodes, a podcast episode isn't around for a week, like a TV show back in the 80s. It's around it's around for a long time. And people will be listening to this episode in three months and six months from now. A lot of these products, they are evergreen people can step in all the time.

I guess the question I'm trying to ask, but not managing to articulate is how do you fold in the actual, hey, you might like this product. I know it's a it's an awkward question is probably different for every podcast. The. But it's something that I think is probably an art to introduce a pitch for a product in a way that doesn't sort of interrupt the flow of value that you're bringing. Does that question make sense?

It makes total sense. And I actually believe it is a really simple answer.

I believe that the biggest mistake podcasters make is they get too focused on what they want to talk about instead of what their audience is coming to them to hear.

And when you are consistently putting out content that is built to answer the questions of the people who you want to sell the thing to around what you're going to sell them, it becomes a really natural fit.

You know, when I come into a show and I'm talking about, you know what? Let me pull this back. Let's actually give give ground examples. I have an episode coming out next week that is called Why I treat my podcast like my like a premium offer in my business.

And I talk about why I respect and and put time and effort and money and energy into my podcast in the same way I would show up for a client who's paying us a monthly retainer to produce their show.

And in doing that, I'm able to very clearly articulate why it matters what the payoff is, how that looks in my business.

I also am really honest in that episode about how there are been times that I haven't done that because I've been caught up in in whatever else and been really transparent and honest with the listener. And it allows me to really easily then slide into sort of living by example and saying, hey, here's what I do in the context of what I'm going to sell you. Here's how I lean on the team. Here's how the team supports me when I'm in these places.

Here's how we're making these strategic decisions. And so when I then go and if you'd like some support with this, here's how you do that. Head over to uncommonly more dotcom.

It's not unexpected.

It feels very natural in the conversation because it's in the context of the conversation we've been having.

Where it gets difficult to do is if I were to bring on an expert in underwater basket weaving and then say, oh, by the way, if you're interested in underwater basket weaving, here's how we can produce your podcast.

And that's where we've got to be really clear again on what are we selling them?

Why are they paying attention? What's the reason that person subscribe to you? What's the reason that person downloaded that episode? What's the reason they hit play? What's the reason they let it keep playing?

Because you're literally needing to get them to buy in minute to minute.

Right. We've got to keep them on the show.

Well, that happens when we're really paying attention to the needs of the listener. And what they showed up for ahead of this is what I think would be really interesting to talk about. I've done five hundred and four episodes of my podcast. If I exclusively talked about only things I wanted to talk about, it would basically be one big podcast about Schitt's Creek and West Wing.

That would be it. And that would be really hard for me to segway into.

Hey, let me produce your show.

And so instead, we regularly speak to the questions that show up in strategy, calls that show up with clients that show up. When I go into groups and I'm a guest expert and answer questions, I take all of those and I take them to the podcast and that's what I build my content around. So when I go to make the pitch, it's a logical next step and not a pattern interrupt.

Yeah, that pattern interrupt is exactly what I was concerned about that I think you need it needs to be normal. It needs to be natural. And yeah, I think like a lot of things, it'll only become normal and natural when you start doing it. And I think yeah. For the listener I'm sorry, this was all about me.

Hey, when I still had guests on my show, I saw it every episode with by the way, I've invited so-and-so onto the show so that I could have a consult and call with them. You get to listen in.

Yeah, I'm going to delete that. So podcasting within the digital marketing spectrum, the way I often describe where it fits in, because a lot of people will be thinking podcasting or Facebook or LinkedIn or oh my God, I'm confused. The way I often help people understand how to put all this together is to think it as an investment portfolio. You've got a short term investment, you got paid traffic and you've got that kind of thing, medium term investment.

You've got social media, social content, long term investment, super high interest rates, podcasting, blogging, YouTube. That's how I help people understand it. And you're right, it's a long term play. Shouldn't expect a short time away. But you've been doing it for five years, so. Tell me about the long term gains of podcasting for anybody that's listening, if they want to know, if they if they if they are in it for the long haul, they want to bring value to an audience over a long period of time, what could they expect?

So there are a couple of things to expect. One, when you go to events, people will be like, oh, hey, you're that person I listen to and they will walk up to you and act like the you are already friends and you totally know who they are, even though you don't because you have been in their car with them every day. You have been on the train with them every day, you've been on their dog walks with them every day, whatever the case may be.

And so that's a really that's probably my favorite thing to expect. I have a really good time with that. My my inner extrovert gets very happy when that happens.

I remember the first time somebody it's actually only happened once the first time I was introduced as Bob Gentle at a bar on an event in London and somebody said, the Bob Gentle, I love that. It's only so good. It's so good.

My favorite is I was at a conference and I was going up an escalator and they were going down an escalator and they saw me and they went, Oh my God, you're DDE, Harris.

And I was like, yes, I am like, I don't I have no idea how to respond to this and look cool. I just think this is fun. We just we just it was hands down.

One of my favorite things that has happened as a result of this podcast, it was really a good time.

But also we all have people who come in and out of our sort of bubble as they need us or don't need us. And so it's really cool because now after it's actually been seven years since I launched the show, after seven years of podcasting, I regularly have people who say, I've been listening to your show since the beginning and now I'm ready to invest.

Now I'm ready to do this because they've been evolving and growing and starting over and whatever with their business. And so when they got to that place where they were ready to do it, they were ready to do it.

They were all in because they've been with me and they've stayed with me until they were ready.

And I get to work with people who I've known since their business look completely different than their business did, does now, because they are in my Instagram DBMS and they've joined in webinars or whatever the thing, maybe they've emailed me whatever the things may be. And so we've we've sort of stayed in touch and and now it's paying off into business and it also pays off in referrals before they're ready, which is really wonderful.

But it I think the relationship I build, I'm a very people first kind of marketer. I'm a very people first kind of sales person. I'm a very people first kind of podcasts. And so I think for me, the coolest thing about having been in this show for so long and doing this for so long, in a weird way, I feel like my listeners and I have grown up together because the show doesn't sound anything like it did in 2013.

Thank heavens. And my business even looks different and so do their business. And so do they and so do I. And so in this in this weird way, it's like we have kind of grown up together. And that for me is really, really fun. And it happens to also, you know, pay all my bills, which is cool.

So when you started your podcast, I think something that I think holds a lot of people back is perfectionism and imposter syndrome. And, oh, I could never do that. It's actually if you take a step to the left and you look at that from the outside, it's ego that they can't allow themselves to be a beginner or suck at something. Is there somebody that when you meet them and somebody says, well, you should do a podcast, you're kind of gut tells you they should just not to a podcast?

And what does that person look like?

I, I think, you know, I can't think of anybody who I've run into and I've said absolutely no. I think if you are stuck in the idea that podcasting has to look a certain way, if you are somebody who is uncomfortable with an evolution of something and living through the evolution of it, podcasting is not the thing for you, because one of the things I love most about podcasting is, quite honestly, my show does not look the same as it did episode one.

It doesn't look the same as it did episode 100 or 200 or 300 or even 400 years.

One of the things I talked about when we celebrated the five 100th episode in October is my show changes probably every year, at least a little, because it is in a lot of ways it's own kind of living and breathing thing.

And I think there absolutely are people who want to be able to sort of hand stamp and predictably do the same old, same old.

And podcasting in a lot of ways is still as an as a space and as an industry and as a content type and as a medium.

Is still evolving so much, and if you're not going to be comfortable leaning into that and making those those evolutions, podcasting is not for you. I think the only other time I've said that to somebody is they didn't know why they wanted to start a podcast. If you want to start a podcast because someone told you it was a good idea or you were at a conference or heard somebody on a podcast say, absolutely, everybody needs a podcast, start one right now.

And that's the reason you give me for when I ask you, why do you want to start a podcast? I will also tell you now, because if you don't know why it is too much work, it is absolutely monumentally too much effort.

If you don't know what the payoff is for you and the payoff doesn't have to be, it'll grow my business. The payoff doesn't have to be I'm going to get 100 leads a week, which, by the way, is not going to happen at the beginning of your podcast.

And depending on the kind of business you have may not ever happen.

But if it can be because I want to have really cool conversations with incredible people who are experts at the thing they do awesome. But you have to give me some other kind of why. Then someone said I should do it.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Another thing that I remember when I started my podcast and anybody who starts podcasting, you need to be aware of this. When you launch your podcast, you're launching it into a vacuum. Nobody knows about your podcast. You have no subscribers. There are things you can do at the beginning to try and give it the best chance possible, but very likely for a long time. I remember to be serious. I remember the day I got to download every single day.

I was thrilled. No one now is doing really fine. But I think this the first week when you launched your podcast, you you get to set the tone, particularly with the Apple podcast algorithm. How much of a difference does it make when somebody gets professional help on day one rather than a month for, you know, I think the only real big help, if I'm completely honest and I probably should be less honest, I'm about to be.

But I think the only real big help is there someone to help you moderate your stress about it.

There is someone to hold you back when you want to go check your stats for the 14th time in three and a half hours.

Because the reality is, is podcasting, whether you get support or not is a long term game.

It will take time to grow. It will take effort to grow. Now, there are incredible benefits.

And in working with a production team and working with experts, because they'll help you build the assets, you need to better market your show when you take off the the to do list of editing and show notes, creation and those kind of things, you have more time to actually show up and market your show in different places, either by being a guest on other podcast or sharing it on social or writing emails to your list or whatever the thing may be that you're doing to to promote your show, you know, paying with paid advertising, whatever it may be.

But I don't ever want an inability to get help to hinder someone from starting a show.

The bulk of our clients that come in have been running their podcast on their own for six to 12 months, sometimes longer. And now they've sort of reached a point where there's a proof of concept.

They know that their show works. They know like being in it. They know it generates interest with their audience. They know what's resonating with the people who they actually want buying and who they actually want to work with. And so now they're ready to make that investment in getting some real support and help around the production of their show.

And that's as valid and supportive and fantastic as getting support from day one, which we've also done with clients. But it's not necessarily going to guarantee that more people show up to the party early.

It will still take time to really see results from your show.

So let's maybe look at those results. I think it was Kevin Kelly wrote a book. I think it was a book. I'm not sure of one thousand true fans where he's talking about if you have a thousand true fans, people who love you and you can provide enough value that you can charge one hundred dollars a month from each person, you have an incredible business. So when you hear about podcasts of 20, 30, 40000 downloads a month, you don't need to really.

And I'm curious to know across the podcasts as a podcast or in isolation, I don't know what normal looks like in terms of monthly downloads. You probably do know what normal does look like for anyone. Business owner, you don't necessarily need a ridiculous number of monthly downloads to have a business, but how do you benchmark a podcasts downloads? So if if anybody's listening as a podcast or is thinking what's normal, what could they or should they expect in terms of monthly downloads as a benchmark?

I love this question.

I'm so glad you asked it, because it's actually a lot lower than most people think. Gibson actually released numbers on their podcast just a couple of months ago here in 2020, and if your podcast per app, like your episode, let's say Episode one goes out, and that episode over the course of its 30 days, its first 30 days, gets more than 120 downloads. You're doing better than half the shows currently hosted by Lipson.

I'm walking around the room high five ing.

Everyone knows, like I think we just all acknowledge that most of you probably have more successful shows than half the shows on Lip-Synch. So I think we hear a lot about people who have 40 and 50 and a hundred thousand downloads per month, and that's great for them. I'm I'm real excited. However, that's not the norm. That is sort of like, you know, in commercials when they when they have something like results might not be typical. That is, the not results might not be typical.

We see most of our shows who are actually generating a real consistent business for our clients, sitting at two thousand five thousand, eight thousand or 10000 downloads per month. All of them, every single one of them run multiple six figure businesses. Right.

And I think as a target, that's perfectly achievable.

It absolutely is. And and that, by the way, for especially some of the smaller shows that are generating multi six figures in revenue for clients, they're not doing paid advertising. They're consistently showing up with strategic value and they're doing what they need to do to organically and consistently market their show. They're serving the people who they want buying, not just trying to get more people to listen. I think so often we get caught up in this idea of more and more and more when it comes to listeners, when in reality, oftentimes what we can end up doing is diluting our actual audience.

And so, yes, we're seeing a large increase in downloads because maybe we're talking about a slightly broader subject, or maybe we're talking to people who sit slightly outside of our ideal clients. But we're not actually seeing the numbers move as far as enquiries coming in or sales calls being booked or programs being purchased. And so I always recommend podcasters keep those numbers together. And one of the questions I ask every time I get on a sales call or I have a conversation with someone is how did you hear about me?

And I would say nine times out of ten. It's a friend shared your podcast with me and I've been bingeing it. And I knew we had to talk. I knew we needed to sit down.

Yeah, I kind of recognize that. Not as much as we'd like, but I kind of recognize it.

I consistently make offers inside the podcast so people know to do it.

Yeah. So another place I wanted to go was podcasting. When you if you don't do it, you think you can just record something, you do a little bit of editing, you press, publish, you walk away. There are so many moving parts from researching and booking guests through to, as you said, the show notes and transcriptions and putting it up on the website. How much of that workflow outside of simply showing up and doing the recording, do you typically take off people's shoulders?

We take everything from you hitting the record button to it, being ready to market off your plate. So we're doing all of the editing. We're helping you create your intro music, your outro stuff, any mid roles or commercials where we're actually matching those with clients so that they don't even necessarily have to worry about the pitch.

Within the episode we're creating show notes generally timestamped or in transcription, depending on the client. We're uploading it to the host. We're creating the SEO optimized title and description for the host so that it goes out into all the places where, of course, making sure that our clients shows are set up to be released and as many places as possible.

One of our big projects for 20/20 was getting everybody in Pandora and Amazon music. I spent a lot of time going through that process this year because they've opened up things.

We're creating audio grammes, we're uploading everything to the website, getting your actual show, not on your website. Set up graphics. Basically, we hand back to the client. Here is a square audiogram, a story audiogram square graphic website graphic. Your link to your show notes, your story sized graphic so that you all you can do is go share your show with your audience, you know, write your email, write your social copy, post these things.

That's all you need to do is tell people it's out everything from after you hit the record button to it's time to share it. We take off your plate.

I think that's a really comprehensive service. And I think what people need to remember is the value of their time because you're doing a podcast because you're great at something and people love you. Something, they don't love you for your editing, they don't love you for your ability to create an audiogram, that's not anybody's best use of time unless that's your sort of genius as it is for your team. So that makes perfect sense. I'm going to ask a cheeky question.

Well, I'm ready. And if the question is too cheeky, I will go back and take it out. But as a broadcaster, I'm thinking, you know what, I can I'm done with all this stuff. I'm going to go and speak to Stacey. What is an entry level engagement with Stacey look like in terms of cost?

So we don't actually have an entry level option.

You work with us or you don't work with us because I'm a big believer that you're going to get the best value if we take it all off your plate. And so that what I just described to you is twelve hundred a month, it requires a 12 month commitment. And what we do is that also includes a quarterly call where you and I get together and we go, do we need any new music?

Do we need any new Miralles? We help finalize your content calendar. We say, hey, what are you selling in that next quarter? Let's make sure that the episode content plans you have are going to are going to serve that goal.

We also put all of our clients in a we use Monday as our project management. And so they're actually in there with us so that we're helping them stay on track and batch their episodes and stay ahead, which is also really supportive. And we also collect stats in there. So it's really easy for our clients to see very quickly how their episodes do. Day one, day seven, day fourteen and day thirty, all in one dashboard. We're essentially building them a dashboard.

And like I said, that is twelve hundred a month and it requires a twelve month commitment with us. It really is that simple.

I don't like piecemealing it because I think sometimes we spend so much time going, OK, well, like if I do this in this that'll work and we end up still having to be in it.

And I really want to put our clients in a position where they're not stuck in any of the mud of podcasting. They are staying very firmly in serving their audience, recording the content, sharing the content with their audience. Everything in the middle can be someone else's problem.

I love the way it's a very brave way to build out your product offering. Really? Where? Yeah, this is us. We do one thing you want that if you want something that's a compromise on that. Yeah. Go somewhere else. Yep. That is because from a productivity perspective, you guys know exactly what you're doing every single day. You're doing the same thing for everyone so you can be awesome at that. That's a really neat way to do things.

Well, and I think it really serves our clients because this is what we do, the same thing every day in the same way. And so you also know that you're stepping into a system that is built to support you and is being tested by not just you but me. This is how my show runs. My team runs my show the same way we run every client show. In fact, I'm frequently the least favorite client because I am usually the worst at being like, well, what if I just did it like a few days late because I'm in in production mode for somebody else.

But when you're doing that, you know, you're really stepping into a system you can trust you are feeling really protected in. I know the show is going to go out. I know what's going to happen, needs to happen, is going to happen.

And you're really handing it over to the experts.

Again, this is what we do day in, day out. This is what works best. I've been doing this a while now and and that that's not the right fit for everybody. Like I said. Absolutely.

That's why we're not the only game in town. Find the best fit for you. And if DIY is it for a while, is the best fit for you. Cool. I've got a whole five day challenge called Launch Your Podcast that literally teaches you how to build your launch strategy, what you're going to need to launch, how to make the most of the beginning of your episode. We're going to be releasing an upper level version soon, DIY it.

If you need to DIY it right now, just do it as effectively as you can. We've got a whole podcast episode where I spelled out Here's what we do. I do this. So and so does this. So this is our podcast system. Go steal it. Go use it.

I want podcasters to be doing this as efficiently and as effectively as possible, whether you're ready to work with us or not.

I guess I'm stumbling over my words there. I speak to people all the time that talk about starting a podcast, but they never quite get there. So I'm quite excited to share your SO to start your podcast challenge thing. But tell me about the upper level thing, because I think a lot of people I know a lot of podcasters listen to the show and they're almost accidental podcasters. They're podcasting, they're reasonably successful shows now, but they are where they are.

And a lot of podcasters work in isolation. So what what would the level up thing look like? I know you're not quite ready for that yet, but. Yeah. Who's that far and what are the options for leveling up the level up actually speaks to more what we what we do most often for clients. Like I said, most of our clients have been around for a while.

And exactly as you say, they're kind of they are where they are. They're seeing some success. But it's not it's not blowing the doors off. It's they know it could be better. More often, they know it could be better for them as an experience, as a broadcaster, like just can I have time, that kind of thing. And so when we talk about up leveling a podcast, a lot of what we're talking about is actually less about here's the right Mike and more about how are we thinking about our show.

We're looking at the actual data because so often I see podcasters who just keep releasing episodes and they only ever look at the download. No, OK. Last month I had 5000 downloads. The month before that, I had 4000. Cool. The show works. That's fine. Whereas what I'm looking at is cool. What episodes are doing the best? What episodes are moving people to your email list? What episodes are being mentioned when you hop on a sales call with somebody?

What are the lines from your show? This is one of my favorite things is when I get on a consulting call and somebody will just sort of pare it back to me verbatim. What I said on some show. And it happens a lot because people will be listening to your show before they get on a call with you.

And so know the times where people are using your words right back at you. I love when people ask me questions, including language I used in an episode. They're like, well, I know such and such, but what does that mean? And what so often we're not looking at those things. We're not looking at those experiences, at those numbers, at that data. We're not looking at the episodes that get people in our inbox, in our DBMS, whatever it may be.

And so a lot of times when we're looking at upper level, it is great. How do we tweak now? How do we make small changes so that we're getting better results? And so the upper level is much more strategic than it is. Here's the new microphone you need. And here's the here's a much better platform to have interviews in.

It's much more OK, what's working? Let's debrief your show, what is working, what's not working, both from a putting it together, but more importantly from a results in your business space. And I think that that's that's a lot of what are are up level conversations are around is just acknowledging that there is data and then actually using it.

So a similar question then is working with lots of podcasters, listening to lots of podcasts. What's the one most common slap your forehead area? You see people making on a regular basis.

There's no call to action. Aha.

OK, there's, there's there's too often you get them all worked up and you don't tell them what to do next. Podcasts and really any kind of content. This is universally true. This is true of social media. This is true of your email.

If if you're not telling them what to do next, then it wasn't really a good use of their time. And I don't even necessarily mean you're not telling them what to buy. You're not you're not selling them something. It's not even about that. Every single episode I put out has something for them to do. It could be taking action on literally what I taught them in the episode and then DME and let me know how it went or email me and let me know how it went.

And sometimes it's OK, guys, we've we've danced around this long enough. You've been listening to the show for a while. Let's make real change.

Let's sit down and have a conversation, whatever it may be. But every single episode needs to have something for them to do. And you need to tell them what that thing is.

OK, for the listener who's making notes, expect some changes. This has been really, really useful. And I hope anybody that's listening is thinking about building that personal brand online, building their network, their authority, their knowledge and essentially their business. Podcasting is such a good option because it's it it avoids an awful lot of the problems of video and podcast. Listeners tend to be much, much more attentive. I'm sure you'd agree. I absolutely agree.

So if you are thinking about this podcasting game, might be for me, has my wholehearted endorsement, I'm sure. Hesitancies. Yes, but yeah. Don't I guess leave it too long if people want to connect with you. If they want to. Yeah. If they want to take things further with you. How would you like them to do that. Absolutely.

Everything we do is over at uncommonly more dotcom. It's real. Find my podcast, which is a great place to start. It's where you find a launch or podcast that we talked about is where you'll find the app level your podcast when it's released very, very soon. That's where you'll find absolutely every way to connect with me is over an uncommonly more dotcom.

And if they want to connect with you on social media, what's your favorite platform?

My favorite platform is Instagram. I'm a sucker for. Instagram stories and Instagram D.M. So they're open, you're more than welcome to head over and drop me a message and chat with me. I have the most fun talking there.

Stand by. I'll be there in five minutes. Fantastic. Stacey, you have been an awesome guest, very, very generous with your knowledge, and I'm really grateful. I need to ask you one question. I have been really good asking everyone recently. And it's what's one thing you do now that you wish you'd started five years ago?

I have more calls to action. I tell people what to do next.

Stacey, thanks so much for your time. You have been awesome.

Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. Podcasting is one of the most wonderful things I've ever done. Hands down, I'm not going to lie. It's enriched my life in more ways than I can tell you. But like anything worth doing. Don't be fooled. It's hard work. And eventually you should get some help so you can focus on amplifying your own zone of genius. Before I go, just a quick reminder to subscribe. And if you haven't already to join my Facebook group, you'll find it amplify me dot form forward slash insiders connect with me.

Wherever you hang out, you'll find me at Bob Gentle and if you do message me, let me know. That way I can follow you back. If you're enjoying the show, I would love for you to review it on iTunes. It means so much to me and it's the best way to help me reach more subscribers. My name is Bob Gentil. Thanks again to Stacey for giving us her time this week and to you for listening. And I'll see you next week.